23 réponses à ce sujet

[Onpoint17]

I getting ready to start a Widow Soldier playthrough and I was just curious which does more damage using this sniper rifle.  The soldier's heightened adrenaline rush or the Infiltrator's assassins cloak?  I've only used the widow on the Infiltrator and it was quite impressive. 

Modifié par Onpoint17, 30 janvier 2012 - 08:29 .

[RedCaesar97]

From an older thread:

ezrafetch wrote...
Here's some general numbers:

Assassin + Assassination Cloak: +90% Damage
Commando + Adrenaline Rush: +155% Damage

I think those numbers are accurate.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Soldier class is the king of dps.

Infiltrators get to "power reload" though, with Incinerate.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 30 janvier 2012 - 09:47 .

[Onpoint17]

Thanks. I look forward to getting the widow.

[ryoldschool]

Folks, I think its even more powerful that that old quote.  Eric F. posted in the last post in the gameplay thread this little bit that includes how he says ARush works.  He makes the statement that it also multiplies all the weapon upgrades that the weapon has, similar to how the distance multiplier works.  If so, then it also doubles the 6 weapon upgrades ( and maybe implied whatever equipment and passive upgrade you have ).  Just taking what he does explicitly mention, weapon upgrades, that would be an extra 60% for Soldier.
From Gameplay Post"

====================================================================

Distance multipliers for weapons multiply the final damage number with all upgrades. For example, shotguns will do x2 of the total damage at a very close range.
Adrenaline Rush behaves the same way; it multiplies the total weapon damage you do.
Keep in mind that ammo powers are still a completely separate damage call. Adrenaline Rush does not affect ammo power damage. Ammo powers are considered a power, so they get bonuses from power upgrades, not weapon upgrades, and they always take their initial damage value from the base weapon damage without upgrades. It's worth noting that ammo powers do get a distance multiplier like weapons. This was done to keep ammo power damage consistent, so when we say that an ammo power does X% of weapon damage, that is true for any range because it shares the distance multiplier of the weapon. 

Modifié par ryoldschool, 30 janvier 2012 - 10:26 .

[capn233]

It's also dependent on which adrenaline rush you pick. All of the lower ranks plus Hardened give you "+100%" but Heightened is "+140%"

Essentially you get gun portion of the weapon damage doubled. And yes that includes upgrades. It doesn't do anything for heavy weapons though.

I verified the Heightened number with the wiki, cause I don't use that one all that often. But I saw this odd bit at the bottom:

"The fire rates of weapons do not speed up to match the time dilation of Adrenaline Rush. Because of this, you might actually do less damage depending on the weapon you are using. "

What the hell is that supposed to mean? That statement defies logic. If you are comparing based on "real world" time then all the DPS remains constant (actually slightly lower since ammo powers are not doubled). But it makes no sense to do that as "game time" is the only thing that is relevant. To all of the targets you are doing around double damage. One of the great benefits is enhancing your ammo efficiency.

[HolyAvenger]

In practice it wouldn't make much difference except in like boss fights. Both soldiers and infiltrators can one-shot basic mooks, but not elite mooks or higher level enemies. You'd just make boss fights quicker by inflicting more damage per shot.

[ryoldschool]

^ if that is from wiki, then that writer got it wrong. That is the reason that Bioware used for the damage boost for Arush.


Example: Hardened Arush ( slows time in half )

auto weapon will fire 1/2 as many shots per ( player's time ) in Arush as player would fire without Arush. So they double the damage those 1/2 number of shots do, so player will do the same damage as twice as many shots fired out of Arush.

But what it really does is double the damage of every shot you take in Arush. To my understanding you can never do less damage in Arush than without ( per player time period ).

[ryoldschool]

HolyAvenger wrote...

In practice it wouldn't make much difference except in like boss fights. Both soldiers and infiltrators can one-shot basic mooks, but not elite mooks or higher level enemies. You'd just make boss fights quicker by inflicting more damage per shot.

How powerful is the inflitrator with widow against elites?  I just ran a test with widow soldier with three sniper upgrades on that first vanguard on Samara's RM, shepard is at level 19.  One Arush shot takes out all the barrier and into health, with no help from warp ammo ( does slightly better with ).   What does the Infiltrator widow shot do?

[RedCaesar97]

ryoldschool wrote...

^ if that is from wiki, then that writer got it wrong. That is the reason that Bioware used for the damage boost for Arush.


Example: Hardened Arush ( slows time in half )

auto weapon will fire 1/2 as many shots per ( player's time ) in Arush as player would fire without Arush. So they double the damage those 1/2 number of shots do, so player will do the same damage as twice as many shots fired out of Arush.

But what it really does is double the damage of every shot you take in Arush. To my understanding you can never do less damage in Arush than without ( per player time period ).

That is why the increased damage from Adrenaline Rush (A-Rush) is completely ridiculous. In game time, you may do the same amount of damage or less under A-Rush than if you had not used A-Rrush, but you also use fewer shots to deal that amount of damage. And with a 3-second cooldown at ranks 3 and 4, and only ammo powers as your other default skills (Concussive Shot does not count), it is very easy to abuse A-Rush. It is one reason why the Soldier is so bland or downright boring at times.

[capn233]

The damage boost from Adrenaline Rush is needed to make Soldier competitive with the other classes. Otherwise it would be nowhere near as powerful.

[RedCaesar97]

capn233 wrote...
The damage boost from Adrenaline Rush is needed to make Soldier competitive with the other classes. Otherwise it would be nowhere near as powerful.

I respectfully disagree. Most--if not all-- the extra damage is overkill anyway and so is not needed. Even without the damage boost, Adrenaline Rush allows the Soldier to quickly take a good position across the battlefield, close in with a shotgun and out, and line up a headshot with a sniper rifle (or any weapon). 

Don't get me wrong, I like Adrenanline Rush a lot, I just feel like the extra damage boost is dumb. I could say the same with Tactical Cloak. 

[capn233]

Perhaps the extra damage is overkill on something like the Widow or Claymore, but for all the lower base damage weapons, specifically the rapid fire weapons, it is very helpful because you are cutting your exposure to enemy fire.

I understand that Adrenaline Rush has other applications besides just shooting, but the damage boost and extra ammo efficiency are part of what makes the class even worth playing. You don't get any real powers, just Concussive Shot, and that deals almost no damage except to barriers where it is mediocre to limited based on the stage of the game. You do get a lot of guns... probably too many.

At any rate, I figure without the damage boost the ammo efficiency is going to go to crap and so you will be fairly limited in spots where thermal clips are rare. Unlike the caster classes which have damage or CC limited only by cooldowns the soldier is limited to the guns and thermal clips.

What I was getting at above about balance is mainly due to observations I had playing other classes. The most notable or infamous would be Sentinel or Vanguard where there is a point in the game where you can nearly be careless from that point on and dominate the levels. This isn't quite as true as a Soldier even with Adrenaline Rush and the damage bonus. Engineer and Adept aren't much weaker with a few levels either.

From a design perspective I think Soldier and Infiltrator should get to have the highest weapon damage. Perhaps they should have implemented it separately from the trademark powers. Like a passive damage boost that is substantial. Or even ammo powers that actually deal the damage as advertised.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

^Yeah, pretty much this. ARush is pretty much the only real power the Soldier class gets, which is why it's so powerful. It's more than just a damage boost, as it's also a tanking and movement booster as well. The time dilation effectively halves the damage you take and doubles the amount of distance you can travel in a given amount of time. Whether it's truly "OP" is up to debate, but it is what it is.

I think they implemented the Soldier and Infiltrator classes reasonably well. Even though the Infiltrator class possibly does a bit less overall damage, it's clearly set up for burst damage while the Soldier is more geared to sustained, heavy DPS. OTOH, I'm curious as to just how large the disparity really is between the two classes, or the other classes, for that matter. Eg: I know that the Infiltrator and Engineer classes can lay down really serious damage via power reloading (and for Engineers there's a way to do w/o needing cover). Anyway, my point is that after playing this game for so long, I can't really say that any class is really IMBA compred to the rest.

[capn233]

I'm not really complaining about their implementation, just pointing out an alternative.

I am with you as far as class balance goes. I think they end up being similar when all is said and done, even if I think there is still a hierarchy. Learning curve is a different issue though.

[xelander]

Quick question guys: what exactly are you referring to when you say "power reloading"?

[AstralStorm]

It's a trick similar to the "punch reload" you'd do for Claymore, where just starting the reload then firing a power reloads your gun faster than it would normally.

[capn233]

You can cancel the reload animation with essentially any other animation. Casting a power, going into or out of cover, and even getting staggered by an enemy will all work.

[xelander]

Aah, thanks. I think it has happened to me by chance a few times but I didn't really pay attention. With the "power" classes I rely too much on said powers to lose a cooldown, whereas with Vanguard/Soldier the Shotgun reload trick is enough. And Infiltrator for me is more about being tricky sneaky freak and messing with the enemy tactics. In your experiences is it really worth the cooldown? Wrt to gameplay not simply damage output?

[capn233]

I don't waste a power just to reload. But that is not when you use it. Since you have to strip protections to use many powers anyway you could be firing at an enemy and as the shield or barrier goes down you hit reload, wait for the click, then hit Reave or Pull or whatever you were going to use.

If you are just planning to shoot them then use melee. Or if you ducked into cover to reload, then you can leave cover.

The main benefit is when you plan to fire consistently though. If you weren't planning to fire right after the reload there is no real reason to do it (other than practice).

[ryoldschool]

ryoldschool wrote...

How powerful is the inflitrator with widow against elites?  I just ran a test with widow soldier with three sniper upgrades on that first vanguard on Samara's RM, shepard is at level 19.  One Arush shot takes out all the barrier and into health, with no help from warp ammo ( does slightly better with ).   What does the Infiltrator widow shot do?

Can somebody help me out with this?  I only have one infiltrator playthrough, and I did Samara's RM before the collector ship, so its not easy to get to that place - I have only a horizon save 

[Locutus_of_BORG]

xelander wrote...

Aah, thanks. I think it has happened to me by chance a few times but I didn't really pay attention. With the "power" classes I rely too much on said powers to lose a cooldown, whereas with Vanguard/Soldier the Shotgun reload trick is enough. And Infiltrator for me is more about being tricky sneaky freak and messing with the enemy tactics. In your experiences is it really worth the cooldown? Wrt to gameplay not simply damage output?

capn233 wrote...

I don't waste a power just to reload. But that is not when you use it. Since you have to strip protections to use many powers anyway you could be firing at an enemy and as the shield or barrier goes down you hit reload, wait for the click, then hit Reave or Pull or whatever you were going to use.

If you are just planning to shoot them then use melee. Or if you ducked into cover to reload, then you can leave cover.

The main benefit is when you plan to fire consistently though. If you weren't planning to fire right after the reload there is no real reason to do it (other than practice).

Yes, exactly. "Power Reloading" is basically only used when you're going all out guns blazing on something, need to reload and may as well fire off a power in the mean time. The benefit is that you get to squeeze in an (ie: casting a power) w/o giving up any opportunity to shoot. The net result is that often end up shooting more (by reloading slightly faster) and influencing the battlefield more via casting powers you wouldn't otherwise be able to cast w/o interrupting your shooting.*

I agree that the Infiltrator class is about sneaky tactics. Even so, there are always times where you just need to lay the beatdown, like in the Praetorian fights. In these cases, power reloading speeds things up considerably.



*Think of it like the heel-toe in racing; braking AND shifting when you'd normally *only* be able to do one at a time.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 31 janvier 2012 - 11:48 .

[xelander]

Yeah, all right, that sounds interesting. I'll give it a try next time when I'm doing an Infiltrator run again. Though I suspect this would be noticeably useful only when shooting down Praetorians/Scions or playing target practice with a whole bunch of basic mooks. I think Widow would benfeit the most from the trick, more so than the Viper or other rapi- firing, large clip weapons.

Anyway, thanks for the info. I ddn't know that any animation can cancel out the reload one, even though I've logged more than 15-20 playthroughs (all Insanity, except the very first one).

[Locutus_of_BORG]

^Wait until the 'click' (just as the gun ejects the 'casing'), then melee or cast something. I can't find the original thread showcasing this, but in the time taken to otherwise finish the reload, your power/melee move will be done and you'll be able to fire again immediately.