There is a 3rd option of sorts to go with TW2 design and have divergent paths within the game which converge to the same point by the end. Even if the conclusion for all paths is similar there have been choices and consequences within the game.Il Divo wrote...
The question with DA3 is (since there is no clear morality system), if we're getting rid of import flags, one of two things can happen:
1) Continuity between installments. Bioware lets us make our huge game-changing decisions (such as the Dark Ritual), and for the next game they choose a canon to design the game around.
2) Set the games so far apart either in terms of location or time frame that our previous decisions won't really matter.
I'm personally comfortable with either. There are enough interesting locations in Thedas that I'm interested to see, but I'd also accept Bioware designing a canon if it makes for a more interesting story.
New Interview with David Gaider
Débuté par
surfgirlusa_2006
, janv. 31 2012 03:27
#101
Posté 01 février 2012 - 09:26
Morroian
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Retour en haut
#102
Posté 01 février 2012 - 09:30
esper
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philippe willaume wrote...
esper wrote...
Dave of Canada wrote...
esper wrote...
They should defintily keep the imports (the little decision are the ones that makes the flavours and they don't really need to be more than a codex entry or a single line from some npc) also dlc needs to be kept in account, but they should make a save game generator for each game., so that bugs can be worked around. Perhaps we should importat into a save generator so we can see the flags and then redo them if they are not correct.
Of course, that'd be fine for the short term and it's actually something I'd advocate keeping if it wasn't harmful in the long term. We're going to keep pilling imports and bugs up until it all collapses and it isn't going to be pretty. We're barely even capable of getting imports to work in DA2. D:
If they make a save game generator for each game, then we upload to that, then the generator could say will that and that and that flag is not important and then not show them /ignore them/, but that and that will be mention however small. I could imaginet the the flags being important dimishing for each game per charcter so let's say that in year 90 Dragon when we are in da6 (just an example) the save game remember the following:
Warden: Sacrfice himself/herself or not, everything else have by now been lost in time
Hawke: Who Hawke sided with and kill Anders or not...
Pc3: A little more
Pc4.... More example
Pc 5, every choice flag that have a consequence of the future of Thedas since that character might still live in the world and the immedieate consequences are still remembered.
we could even imagine the saved game generator reading an actual save and asking you to validate before creating the save for the new game.
I am a bit tired right now, so could you possible explain what you meant in more details?
#103
Posté 01 février 2012 - 09:39
tmp7704
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Fair enough; that's a different stance from a belief that presence of such function in itself determines the ability to "give us a great game".Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I see effectively no benefit to having the import function, so I'm not willing to pay any development cost for it at all.
(though i disagree with that stance, but that's a discussion we've already had, iirc)
#104
Posté 01 février 2012 - 09:47
Fisto The Sexbot
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"We did DA2 in a really short span of time" -- well, at least now we won't have any more biodrones denying the game was rushed.
#105
Posté 01 février 2012 - 09:50
tmp7704
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You can bet there will be people willing to argue that "game made in a really short span of time" and "rushed" don't technically have to be the same thing.
#106
Posté 01 février 2012 - 10:08
Pzykozis
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tmp7704 wrote...
You can bet there will be people willing to argue that "game made in a really short span of time" and "rushed" don't technically have to be the same thing.
I would be but not in defense of DA2...
It's all a matter of man hours not amount of real time. 200 people working on something for 6 months is more work done by 100 for 8 months, but the real determining factor would be how good the final product is, a great final product done in a short span of time wouldn't be called rushed would it?
I've produced some of my best peices of work when in a short time frame, but during that time frame I'm working 20 hour days. Crunch time is fun time.
#107
Posté 01 février 2012 - 10:59
Wulfram
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I don't think the import function effects divergent paths so much as divergent outcomes.
Bioware could have had two seperate act 3s, one for the Templar supporter, one for the Mage supporter, and it wouldn't have to be too much of a problem as far as imports go, so long as both still end up with Spoily spoiling the spoily.
But what they couldn't do was allow Hawke to prevent the spoiling of the spoily
Bioware could have had two seperate act 3s, one for the Templar supporter, one for the Mage supporter, and it wouldn't have to be too much of a problem as far as imports go, so long as both still end up with Spoily spoiling the spoily.
But what they couldn't do was allow Hawke to prevent the spoiling of the spoily
Modifié par Wulfram, 01 février 2012 - 10:59 .
#108
Posté 02 février 2012 - 02:38
WhiteKnyght
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I like that Gaider added some insight into the whole possession thing.
For a long time I've seen anti-mage posters on this board use things like Thrask's daughter and the way the Circle Mages acted during the final quest as justification for why it needed to be done. The whole "Meredith was right about the Circle being corrupt" thing isn't as true as they believe.
The simple truth is that a mage can become mentally weak and more vulnerable in moments of terror. Olivia was being held hostage and didn't know what the slavers were going to do to her when she became possessed. And the Circle Mages became possessed and transformed out of fear of being killed. It was literally Meredith's fault for intimidating them.
While this does justify the Circle and Templar existence to a degree, the Templars' extreme methods and use of fear and violence to gain obedience are counter-productive.
Long story short. Feelings of fear, oppression, submission, and hopelessness cause the things the Templars don't want to happen. If they allowed more personal freedoms, and kept them comfortable and cage them in a bleak hole like the Gallows or the White Spire, the mages would be happier overall and more willing to cooperate.
Example: Emile De Launcet. After a night of drinking and getting laid, he was happy to go back to the Gallows.
For a long time I've seen anti-mage posters on this board use things like Thrask's daughter and the way the Circle Mages acted during the final quest as justification for why it needed to be done. The whole "Meredith was right about the Circle being corrupt" thing isn't as true as they believe.
The simple truth is that a mage can become mentally weak and more vulnerable in moments of terror. Olivia was being held hostage and didn't know what the slavers were going to do to her when she became possessed. And the Circle Mages became possessed and transformed out of fear of being killed. It was literally Meredith's fault for intimidating them.
While this does justify the Circle and Templar existence to a degree, the Templars' extreme methods and use of fear and violence to gain obedience are counter-productive.
Long story short. Feelings of fear, oppression, submission, and hopelessness cause the things the Templars don't want to happen. If they allowed more personal freedoms, and kept them comfortable and cage them in a bleak hole like the Gallows or the White Spire, the mages would be happier overall and more willing to cooperate.
Example: Emile De Launcet. After a night of drinking and getting laid, he was happy to go back to the Gallows.
#109
Posté 02 février 2012 - 06:33
TEWR
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Filament wrote...
Maybe they're both forgotten and forbidden! *dramatic chipmunk*
NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!
Warning: it loops!
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 février 2012 - 06:34 .
#110
Posté 03 février 2012 - 02:30
Saintthanksgiving
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has anyone considered that the choice-driven narrative is just ill suited for episodic stories?
Seems like a lot of the story decisions in DA2 were made to break free of the myriad plot choices that ORIGINS created. The love interests, dead companions, and god baby issues would have made a mess of a sequel.
.... y'know a bigger mess...
KOTOR 2 took a 200 year leap from its predecessor, which meant the Revan issue was the only real problem to address... and it was handled in 5 minutes of conversation.
I assumed ORIGINS was the start of a trilogy because of the "Origin Story" kickoff and the God Baby cliffhanger. Giving a 20-25 year gap could have provided enough distance from Origins to avoid conflict with its predecessor, without completely breaking from the overall story.
Generally, I think MAJOR plot decisions should not be decided by the player. If a signifigant character or plot event happens, the choice should be HOW the event happens, not IF the event happens. The idea that Lelianna could have been killed in the previous game, and then returns in a sequel is just bad for buisness. Retconning characters is the worst kind of story murder. Aggravated story murder.
This kind of rule should apply to Mass Effect as well. I shudder to think about the nonsense that is going to be required to bring back companions from the suicide mission. The Shephard "ressurection" is already top ten on my "List of worst decisions since The Phantom Menace".
Seems like a lot of the story decisions in DA2 were made to break free of the myriad plot choices that ORIGINS created. The love interests, dead companions, and god baby issues would have made a mess of a sequel.
.... y'know a bigger mess...
KOTOR 2 took a 200 year leap from its predecessor, which meant the Revan issue was the only real problem to address... and it was handled in 5 minutes of conversation.
I assumed ORIGINS was the start of a trilogy because of the "Origin Story" kickoff and the God Baby cliffhanger. Giving a 20-25 year gap could have provided enough distance from Origins to avoid conflict with its predecessor, without completely breaking from the overall story.
Generally, I think MAJOR plot decisions should not be decided by the player. If a signifigant character or plot event happens, the choice should be HOW the event happens, not IF the event happens. The idea that Lelianna could have been killed in the previous game, and then returns in a sequel is just bad for buisness. Retconning characters is the worst kind of story murder. Aggravated story murder.
This kind of rule should apply to Mass Effect as well. I shudder to think about the nonsense that is going to be required to bring back companions from the suicide mission. The Shephard "ressurection" is already top ten on my "List of worst decisions since The Phantom Menace".
#111
Posté 03 février 2012 - 04:53
Il Divo
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Saintthanksgiving wrote...
KOTOR 2 took a 200 year leap from its predecessor, which meant the Revan issue was the only real problem to address... and it was handled in 5 minutes of conversation.
KotOR 2 took place 5 years after KotOR 1.
#112
Posté 03 février 2012 - 04:56
surfgirlusa_2006
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Morroian wrote...
There is a 3rd option of sorts to go with TW2 design and have divergent paths within the game which converge to the same point by the end. Even if the conclusion for all paths is similar there have been choices and consequences within the game.Il Divo wrote...
The question with DA3 is (since there is no clear morality system), if we're getting rid of import flags, one of two things can happen:
1) Continuity between installments. Bioware lets us make our huge game-changing decisions (such as the Dark Ritual), and for the next game they choose a canon to design the game around.
2) Set the games so far apart either in terms of location or time frame that our previous decisions won't really matter.
I'm personally comfortable with either. There are enough interesting locations in Thedas that I'm interested to see, but I'd also accept Bioware designing a canon if it makes for a more interesting story.
Didn't Origins do this to an extent? For example, consider the events surrounding Connor and dealing with that situation: you could kill Isolde, kill Connor, or get the Circle involved. Three paths, same basic outcome; the situation is resolved, and you can get on with curing the Arl. Same with a lot of the other choices (werewolves vs elves, Harrowmont vs Bhelen, etc). You make choices along the way, but in the end it boils down to killing the archdemon and putting someone on the throne (not quite that simplfied, obviously).
If Bioware goes with option 3 and goes back to having paths that are more divergent than those in DA2 and having one or two major choices near the end, I'd be ok with that. I think DA2 tried to do that, but the choices felt much more limited in scale and scope and the paths didn't diverge enough, which is why people took issue with it.
EDIT: Fixed typos, because I am a perfectionist when it comes to spelling and grammar. Must be the old English major in me still lurking.
Modifié par surfgirlusa_2006, 03 février 2012 - 04:59 .
#113
Posté 03 février 2012 - 05:30
silentassassin264
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"There was a point late in the project we kind of realized 'Hey, we have sort of a shortage of good mages..."
It took you late into the game to realize that there was a shortage of good mages and the whole point of the game is choosing between mages and templars....
I don't think I can finish without getting banned.
It took you late into the game to realize that there was a shortage of good mages and the whole point of the game is choosing between mages and templars....
I don't think I can finish without getting banned.
#114
Posté 03 février 2012 - 06:14
ladyofpayne
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I hope thel will finish Morrgan story. And may be they do Dark Ritual as canon.
#115
Posté 03 février 2012 - 09:30
ElitePinecone
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Saintthanksgiving wrote...
This kind of rule should apply to Mass Effect as well. I shudder to think about the nonsense that is going to be required to bring back companions from the suicide mission. The Shephard "ressurection" is already top ten on my "List of worst decisions since The Phantom Menace".
But they aren't bringing back companions from the Suicide Mission... except for one that has a good reason.
#116
Guest_Tancred Of The Chantry_*
Posté 03 février 2012 - 09:56
Guest_Tancred Of The Chantry_*
Guest_Tancred Of The Chantry_*
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“And I was like "Yeah!" So I guess there is an element of evil there!"
Aha! Gaider finally admits that he and the other writers are evil! I always suspected as much.
In all seriousness, this was a fantastic interview. The clarifications on mage possession were useful, and I was surprised by how candid Gaider was about the process behind DA2. And after playing Mark of the Assassin twice, I would love to finally see Orlais. I still have questions, as below, but reading this interview leaves me with positive expectations for DA3.
I feel you. I understand that the Templars’ extreme measures made them complicit in creating the situations they feared. Gaider’s explanations help make sense of what happened with, for example, Olivia, who The Grey Nayr mentioned. Still, it seemed like almost every mage “good” or “bad,” with or without Templar provocation, turned to blood magic (and thus evil, with the possible exception of Gascard DuPuis) or spirit possession and usually Hawke had to kill them. Now, there is Merrill who's reminiscent of Jowan, and the blood mage who asks for mercy in Origins’ Broken Circle quest, in that she’s a blood mage but not evil. But while Kirkwall might not be teeming with blood mages, evil or not, Hawke seems denied the ability to know that with certainty. If one of the points of the "Enigma of Kirkwall" entries, and the note "Speculations on Kirkwall" in Legacy, is that the Veil is very thin in and around Kirkwall, possibly influencing high crime rates, blood magic, and more, why keep that point relegated to codices players might not read? For me, it isn't just a problem of seeing things from a certain POV.
Hmm, I fear I might be derailing the thread a bit. If nothing else, the interview was enjoyable and gave me a lot to think about.
Aha! Gaider finally admits that he and the other writers are evil! I always suspected as much.
In all seriousness, this was a fantastic interview. The clarifications on mage possession were useful, and I was surprised by how candid Gaider was about the process behind DA2. And after playing Mark of the Assassin twice, I would love to finally see Orlais. I still have questions, as below, but reading this interview leaves me with positive expectations for DA3.
silentassassin264 wrote...
It took you late into the game to realize that there was a shortage of good mages and the whole point of the game is choosing between mages and templars....
I feel you. I understand that the Templars’ extreme measures made them complicit in creating the situations they feared. Gaider’s explanations help make sense of what happened with, for example, Olivia, who The Grey Nayr mentioned. Still, it seemed like almost every mage “good” or “bad,” with or without Templar provocation, turned to blood magic (and thus evil, with the possible exception of Gascard DuPuis) or spirit possession and usually Hawke had to kill them. Now, there is Merrill who's reminiscent of Jowan, and the blood mage who asks for mercy in Origins’ Broken Circle quest, in that she’s a blood mage but not evil. But while Kirkwall might not be teeming with blood mages, evil or not, Hawke seems denied the ability to know that with certainty. If one of the points of the "Enigma of Kirkwall" entries, and the note "Speculations on Kirkwall" in Legacy, is that the Veil is very thin in and around Kirkwall, possibly influencing high crime rates, blood magic, and more, why keep that point relegated to codices players might not read? For me, it isn't just a problem of seeing things from a certain POV.
Hmm, I fear I might be derailing the thread a bit. If nothing else, the interview was enjoyable and gave me a lot to think about.
Modifié par Tancred Of The Chantry, 03 février 2012 - 09:57 .
#117
Posté 03 février 2012 - 10:35
Fiery Phoenix
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Great interview.
I must voice my agreement that the import feature isn't exactly fitting in Dragon Age since it's a setting rather than a series a la Mass Effect. I believe DA2 would have been more coherent plot-wise had there been no importing involved.
In any case, thanks for the interview!
I must voice my agreement that the import feature isn't exactly fitting in Dragon Age since it's a setting rather than a series a la Mass Effect. I believe DA2 would have been more coherent plot-wise had there been no importing involved.
In any case, thanks for the interview!
Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 03 février 2012 - 10:53 .
#118
Posté 03 février 2012 - 01:56
Baelyn
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As others have mentioned, I, too, thought it was a great interview. Got me very excited for what is to come and gave me an even larger respect for Gaider and his team.
As for me, the import feature is probably my favorite feature in the Dragon Age games. I think that if the mass amount of import bugs hadn't been present in DA2 (Zehvran etc) then it would have been more generally accepted as a good feature.
Luckily enough, I didn't experience any import bugs and I loved seeing my choices reflected in various characters returning and simple asides from other characters talking about the Hero of Ferelden etc.
As I have always said, I think it may be too soon to judge the import feature in this series, as I think the MAJOR choices made in Origins have yet been seen to fruition. I thoroughly hope they continue with it, but ensure to better protect it next time against bugs, as it is something that is very dear to most DA players. THEIR save is THEIR save that they have worked very hard to perfect and continue.
As for me, the import feature is probably my favorite feature in the Dragon Age games. I think that if the mass amount of import bugs hadn't been present in DA2 (Zehvran etc) then it would have been more generally accepted as a good feature.
Luckily enough, I didn't experience any import bugs and I loved seeing my choices reflected in various characters returning and simple asides from other characters talking about the Hero of Ferelden etc.
As I have always said, I think it may be too soon to judge the import feature in this series, as I think the MAJOR choices made in Origins have yet been seen to fruition. I thoroughly hope they continue with it, but ensure to better protect it next time against bugs, as it is something that is very dear to most DA players. THEIR save is THEIR save that they have worked very hard to perfect and continue.
#119
Posté 03 février 2012 - 05:15
Fast Jimmy
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In response to the import question brought up...
...could the very reason why Bioware hasn't been successful in fixing the import bugs is because maybe... they wanted the import bugs in DA2 to be bad?
Think about it... the writer's are probably hitting themselves on the head for getting into the kind of pickle they are in with the import feature. It pigeon holes them into either making tons of unique content for whatever choices were made in a previous game (DAO) or forces them to remove all real choice in a game, so that you don't need to worry about importing much of anything (DA2).
What if DA2 was purposefully done badly wiht imports, so gamers would see the ugly stepsister that the import feature could become? How many people here are now saying "scrap imports" after DA2, when this time last year, before DA2's release, it would have been considered heresey?
I'm not attributing evil mastermind status to any of the devs, but maybe a few months before release they just said "You know what? Let's not break our backs to make this import thing work. And let's see if people keep clamoring for it if we don't make it a priority for it to work and function perfectly."
...could the very reason why Bioware hasn't been successful in fixing the import bugs is because maybe... they wanted the import bugs in DA2 to be bad?
Think about it... the writer's are probably hitting themselves on the head for getting into the kind of pickle they are in with the import feature. It pigeon holes them into either making tons of unique content for whatever choices were made in a previous game (DAO) or forces them to remove all real choice in a game, so that you don't need to worry about importing much of anything (DA2).
What if DA2 was purposefully done badly wiht imports, so gamers would see the ugly stepsister that the import feature could become? How many people here are now saying "scrap imports" after DA2, when this time last year, before DA2's release, it would have been considered heresey?
I'm not attributing evil mastermind status to any of the devs, but maybe a few months before release they just said "You know what? Let's not break our backs to make this import thing work. And let's see if people keep clamoring for it if we don't make it a priority for it to work and function perfectly."
#120
Posté 03 février 2012 - 06:31
Sylvius the Mad
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Yeah, I somehow doubt Carth was 200 years old when the Exile meets him on Telos.Il Divo wrote...
Saintthanksgiving wrote...
KOTOR 2 took a 200 year leap from its predecessor, which meant the Revan issue was the only real problem to address... and it was handled in 5 minutes of conversation.
KotOR 2 took place 5 years after KotOR 1.
#122
Posté 03 février 2012 - 08:41
CaisLaochach
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Good interview. Worth the read.
#123
Posté 03 février 2012 - 09:28
Saintthanksgiving
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Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Yeah, I somehow doubt Carth was 200 years old when the Exile meets him on Telos.Il Divo wrote...
Saintthanksgiving wrote...
KOTOR 2 took a 200 year leap from its predecessor, which meant the Revan issue was the only real problem to address... and it was handled in 5 minutes of conversation.
KotOR 2 took place 5 years after KotOR 1.
Apologies, it's been a while since i picked it up. Where did I get 200 from? is that the difference in time between KOTOR and the new MMORPG? either way...
the point i was trying to make is, the time lapse buys you space. As you get more removed from the first chapter, large plot decisions become less important and can be explained away in conversations like the Revan issue from Kotor.
but again the best way to deal with this stuff is to make the large canon choices a matter of "How" as opposed to "If" the player chooses them to happen.
Things like "who becomes King?" become large issues in a continuing story. You have to choose between establishing a canon that the player did not necessarily choose, or ignore the situation completely and never mention the King of Ferelden again. Basically, you end up painting yourself into a corner.
#124
Posté 03 février 2012 - 09:28
Liaren
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That was a nice read. Hehe, I like the humour in the interview.
#125
Posté 04 février 2012 - 03:02
Annihilator27
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JohnEpler wrote...
Brockololly wrote...
Morroian wrote...
So John what can we read into this tweet from yourself: "Exciting stuff today. So exciting I can't talk about it beyond vague generalities. But trust me. It's exciting."JohnEpler wrote...
I think you may be reading far too much into that.
Epler just learned that in light of Jessica Chobot being in ME3, BioWare is stepping up their inclusiveness and putting Jeff Gerstmann in Dragon Age 3 as the sultry fanservice love interest for all the ladies.
Exciting indeed.
Like hell Gerstmann's getting face scanned before me.
I will be a love interest or else.
Lmao, John you are the man.
