228 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

It sounded like CodyMelch was referring to a drop, not a jump. But I just watched the jump, and I guess it was unrealistic, but I can't really be bothered by it enough to call it 'absurd.' I'll just pretend the smoke bomb is a rocket.

A rocket in DA? That's kinda lulz worthy =P

Anyway, originally the discussion was about her intro drop, but I pointed out that it wasn't unrealistic. Then we moved the discussion to Tallis' backflip to a column 15 feet above her near the end, which was unrealistic.

Really though, it's not much worse than the jump Leliana did in the Sacred Ashes trailer. And it's not 200 feet in heavy armor that just makes me stare in disbelief, even if it's technically 'okay' because magic.

Which jump? Leliana did a jump down in the Sacred Ashes trailer. Tallis did a jump up. There's a difference between the two. I don't think Leliana ever did a jump up in the trailer.

I stand corrected. She did a jump onto a Darkspawn corpse, using it as a platform for a higher jump. The Darkspawn stands 4 feet tall roughly since it was on its knees at the time of the jump, and she jumped another 6-8 feet.

But that's not as bad as Tallis' jump. It adheres better to the laws of physics and gravity then Tallis'. Tallis' is worse.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 février 2012 - 05:59 .

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

The jump down is also unrealistic, for that matter. You can talk about people managing falls without dying while leaving out the massive injuries they suffer or talk about the people who spend a great deal of time training how to fall in controlled scenarios without hurting themselves because they're trying to break a guinness world record or something, but am I supposed to buy that Leliana can just naturally do that in the middle of a combat scenario and not have a very short life as an adventurer because surely something's going to go wrong very quickly with that frequency of needless acrobatics? Because I don't.

I imagine her time as a bard would have her be very well versed in parkour-like maneuvers and how to use them appropriately in battle, when to use them in battle, and how to stay focused in battle when she needs to use them. Parkour is about getting from point A to B in the fastest way possible. She did a backflip off of the pillar she was standing on before the Dragon's tail even hit it. Which means she was able to judge it appropriately and act accordingly, to which she made sure her feet were facing the ground for a proper landing.

She's... what... 20 feet up? I've seen people jump from that height when someone was running right behind them intent on smacking into them, and they lived. All she needs to do is a tuck and roll type scenario. She needs to do the proper parkour landing to not be injured, and might I add just because we don't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

You may not want to deem it entirely realistic, and that's up to you, but will you at least concede that it is more realistic then Tallis' backflip? Which was what I said in my last sentence? That it adheres to the laws of physics and gravity better than Tallis' backflip.

Additionally, the Darkspawn in the video are all Hurlocks with a few Ogres scattered about. Since Hurlocks are of human male size and human males are roughly six feet tall, this helps determine the height of the jump. And since I am six feet tall, I knelt down in the same style the Hurlock was in when he fell to his knees.

He was about four to five feet high, as I estimated. I can then take his height and apply it to Leliana's jump to get an approximation of how high she jumped using him as a platform. It may not be exact, and perhaps I should've phrased my post above to say it was simply an approximation, but it helps to determine the level of realism inherent in the maneuver itself better than just simply watching it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 février 2012 - 06:22 .

[TEWR]

Well, we can at least set up a frame of reference for ourselves. Obviously, it wasn't a jump of two feet and it wasn't a jump of forty feet.

We could probably also use Leliana's own height to help us determine it. She's... what 5 feet 10 inches at least? Rounding it to 6 feet, we can say that when her feet reach a point where her head was, she has traveled roughly six feet.

Assuming we could slow it down that is.

Not only that, but we can use the rocks near her as an idea for how high they are, as they are on a level field before the camera pans out and looks up at Leliana. Paused at the 1:38 mark, I can see that the Hurlock is 2-3 feet shorter then the shortest point on top of the rocks by examining where his head and his feet are in relation to the rocks themselves (both the tip and the base of the rocks). So the rocks are 8-9 feet high, give or take a few inches. This also helps to find out how high she was in her jump, if one were to play that scene backwards and forwards and examine it in depth.

At the very least, we can establish a guideline for the jump off of the Hurlock and how many feet it fits between. So I'd say it was at least 10 feet and at most 20. Maybe 25 if I was being generous.

But I see her as jumping maybe 15 feet high, with the Hurlock.

Finally, one must remember that she had momentum built up. Tallis didn't. This is a crucial thing to remember when talking about the physics of a jump. Momentum will help. Tallis just let loose a smoke bomb and for some reason jumped 20 feet high, with no momentum. Leliana had been running.

And even then, are we to consider Sacred Ashes as a canon part of the series to be used as a defense of other DA things? Just asking, 'tis all, because I expect some would consider it such and others wouldn't.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 février 2012 - 06:46 .

[TEWR]

I don't know if canon is the right word, but I get the sense that it was well received for the most part, indicating it had a tone and style people approved of. I didn't like it, but for other reasons than that...

Possibly because it was fairly more grounded -- I guess that would be the appropriate word -- and kept more in line with physics then DAII did, even with its own style of over the topness.

We can see Sten jump 5-6 feet into the High Dragon, but he's built up momentum so even those people who might see the height of the jump as unrealistic might accept it. Additionally, Hawke did the same thing in the Destiny trailer.

But when you look at DAII's mighty blow, Hawke/Fenris/Carver jumps 6 feet in the air without any momentum built.

now I'm not arguing that Mighty Blow should only work if you're running. I've actually advocated it should just be the Warrior slamming his sword into the ground and creating a shockwave, sans the jump.

I'm actually curious why you didn't like it. Was it because Morrigan's shapeshifting in there was nothing like the shapeshifting in DAO in terms of power and usefulness?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 février 2012 - 06:53 .

[Halarid]

 Oh my, two pages of irrelevant jumping in cutscenes...

Cutscenes are not important for gameplay. The problem arises when something like a bionic-man-kind-of-jumping ability trivializes distance in combat, for example.


To get back on important points...

Here is what Mike Laidlaw said regarding party armor, and it is something that's worrisome, naturally:

"Followers who have no armor equipped by the player will be automatically equipped with a "basic" suit of armor that progresses automatically with them as they level, similar to the "basic" weapons that equip if you remove your real weapons in DAII."


I expect DA3 to be an automaton. The game will do everything itself, automatically. 

This shows that the abomination of level scaling has metastasized into every single cell of Bioware's games.

Enemies level scale, loot level scales, follower suits of armor level scale on their own, follower "basic" weapons level scale on their own...

My humble opinion is that you should erase the label "RPG" from such a product because it's not a game - it's a partially-interactive story simulator. I swear the acronym for the latter is just a coincidence.

[Morroian]

[quote]Halarid wrote...

I expect DA3 to be an automaton. The game will do everything itself, automatically. 
[/quote] 
Strawman, having basic armor and weapons auto equipped in no way takes away from the players choice in deciding what armor he wants to wear and weapons he wants to wield relevant to his class. I do however want them to return to the greater freedom DAO had in equipping characters with any weapons

[quote]Halarid wrote...

My humble opinion is that you should erase the label "RPG" from such a product because it's not a game - it's a partially-interactive story simulator. I swear the acronym for the latter is just a coincidence.
[/quote]  
So adventure games aren't games? DA2 was more of an rpg than other games people like to slap the label on like DE3 and IMHO had greater role playing than Skyrim.














[/quote]

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

[quote]Morroian wrote...

[quote]Halarid wrote...

My humble opinion is that you should erase the label "RPG" from such a product because it's not a game - it's a partially-interactive story simulator. I swear the acronym for the latter is just a coincidence.
[/quote]  
So adventure games aren't games? DA2 was more of an rpg than other games people like to slap the label on like DE3 and IMHO had greater role playing than Skyrim.
[/quote]
[/quote]

I'm not in the mood to DISCUSS! what is an RPG or not, but you're approaching Halarid's post from the wrong angle.

His point is not about the typical "it's not an RPG, it's an Action/Adventure game!" mindset and the defensive reflex by those who like DA 2 (as shown by you, "it's more of an rpg than Skyrim").

Halarid's point is that the gameplay is so irrelevant to the game (because it's done poorly, because it's constantly being "streamlined", because it's utterly divorced from the narrative and serves no real purpose, because whatever) that it shouldn't even be called a game anymore.

Now, I don't agree with that notion, but as I said, I'm not in the mood to discuss what is an RPG, or a game, or whatever.

Modifié par CrustyBot, 14 février 2012 - 12:34 .

[Halarid]

Morroian wrote...

Halarid wrote...

I expect DA3 to be an automaton. The game will do everything itself, automatically. 

 
Strawman, having basic armor and weapons auto equipped in no way takes away from the players choice in deciding what armor he wants to wear and weapons he wants to wield relevant to his class. I do however want them to return to the greater freedom DAO had in equipping characters with any weapons

Halarid wrote...

My humble opinion is that you should erase the label "RPG" from such a product because it's not a game - it's a partially-interactive story simulator. I swear the acronym for the latter is just a coincidence.

  
So adventure games aren't games? DA2 was more of an rpg than other games people like to slap the label on like DE3 and IMHO had greater role playing than Skyrim.

Knee-jerk reaction and misuse of the term strawman.
What part of your litany contradicts the fact that DA(3) obviously aims at doing as much as possible by itself even without the player intervening? Repeat after me: the armor/weapon will be automatically equipped, the armor/weapon will automatically level scale. 
Did I say it negates customisation? Oh look.... I didn't. (Disregarding that you can't customize, for example, the follower into having no weapon or armor equipped with this automation system).



How did you deduce that I said/think adventure games are not games?  

I merely suggested a better description for Bioware computer products. I believe the "game" part is neglected because the interaction is completely piloted by the story, and this interacion with an artificial-on-sight level-scaled world is very limited and doesn't result in relevant consequences.

For these reasons one could argue that we're not actually playing (which is the cardinal aspect of a game), but instead that we're watching and partially interacting in a movie. Thus a better term - partially interactive story simulator. Opinions may differ, of course.
Even if it was basically a joke, which you took to heart, it's not so far from the truth.

[fchopin]

Halarid wrote...
To get back on important points...

Here is what Mike Laidlaw said regarding party armor, and it is something that's worrisome, naturally:

"Followers who have no armor equipped by the player will be automatically equipped with a "basic" suit of armor that progresses automatically with them as they level, similar to the "basic" weapons that equip if you remove your real weapons in DAII."


I expect DA3 to be an automaton. The game will do everything itself, automatically. 

This shows that the abomination of level scaling has metastasized into every single cell of Bioware's games.

Enemies level scale, loot level scales, follower suits of armor level scale on their own, follower "basic" weapons level scale on their own...

My humble opinion is that you should erase the label "RPG" from such a product because it's not a game - it's a partially-interactive story simulator. I swear the acronym for the latter is just a coincidence.

This is what i call the kiss of death.

[AbsoluteApril]

FieryDove wrote...
I just am tired of no end in sight cliffhangers for the PC characters.

Agreed but now I'm worried they'll make the PC die at the end of the DA3.

[Sylvius the Mad]

CodyMelch wrote...

I do, but the real question is. Do you? I mean you all were just complaining on how unrealistic it is for the combat to be what it is, yet anything that answers "its fiction" and backs up some evidence with it is disregarded just like that. I can just use your own argument against you and say that the reason they are able to do what they do in combat is due to the laws of their physics being different, thus rendering your entire complain moot.

Except the laws of physics are not that different.  If they were, we would see more evidence of it.

For example, the weapons in both DA games are oversized.  The mauls, if they were made of something with a density similar to steel, would weigh over 40 kg, and thus be too heavy to wield using our physics.

But they are wielded, therefore the physics must allow it.  Either force and leverage behave differently, or the materials are simply stornger and less dense than Earth materials.  But if either of those thing were true, we would see evidence of it in the architecture of Thedas.  Thedas, however, uses fairly realistic architectural structures, suggesting that the physical laws that govern them are very similar to the physical laws that govern us.

So which is it?  The problem with the physics in DA isn't that they are unrealistic, but that they are internally inconsistent.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Assassin's Creed takes place is a different universe.  There's no reason to believe it shares any physical laws with Thedas.

Again same can be said about DA.

No, the same cannot be said of DA, because DA is set in Thesdas.  The physical laws of Thedas are exactly the same same as the physical laws of Thedas.

A is A.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Morroian wrote...

Strawman, having basic armor and weapons auto equipped in no way takes away from the players choice in deciding what armor he wants to wear and weapons he wants to wield relevant to his class.

Unless he wants to wield no weapons.  Or wear no armour.

I do however want them to return to the greater freedom DAO had in equipping characters with any weapons.

I also very much want this.

[kingjezza]

I want the freedom to run my companions around in their underwear if I want.

[Sylvius the Mad]

No weapons is the bigger deal. In DAO you could fight bare-handed to make a point, and given how effective a Dex-tank was that could actually be a viable build.

[Ghidorah14]

kingjezza wrote...

I want the freedom to run my companions around in their underwear if I want.

OMG this.

I wanted a to run around Kirkwall with a nekkid team consisting of Merril, Lady Hawke, Isabela, and Aveline. It'd be like a giant sexy party and it'd be ridiuclous and hilarious.

Who wouldnt wanna show up to the Act 2 finale in nothing but your small clothes just to troll the Arishok?

[Halarid]

Filament wrote...

I guess it is unfortunate that they don't allow us to roleplay Captain Underpants anymore..

It's not so much about roleplaying Captain Underpants or Captain Bud Spencer...

It's more about, you know, not being treated like people with various concentration and/or attention disorders.

If I have to go from point A to point B within an area I wouldn't want the game to teleport me to point B (to cater to players that don't want to fiddle with pesky walking). The same way I don't want Bioware to equip weapons and suits of armor, on characters I control, instead of me (to cater to players that don't want to fiddle with equipping things that help us survive combat).
I mean, where will it stop? On the immunity button? On the button of skipping combat altogether? Will the argument still be: just don't use it!!  ?



What's more problematic is the level scaling aspect of this system and virtually everything else.

I could live with a follower telling me: Look, I don't want to fight without a suit of armor. I have this one I carry with me. It's also a strange armor, if you ask me. It doesn't become more powerful after I defeat 50 darkspawns. Imagine that!

I'm not fine with:
*Party member levels up* *PC looks at party member*
PC: Oh my, your armor has become thicker and more robust, all of a sudden, good for you! And look at your weapon, it's.. it's... longer and sharper!

This bothers me; party members receiving new suits of armor and weapons every time they level up. How can a weapon or armor level up? Why do they level up along with the character?

Why does everything level scale in Bioware's games? I'll never understand why they intentionally make leveling up a charade. A travesty. A big joke.



Also, what if... not equpping armor or equipping only one weapon was viable?
What if every armor had a certain dexterity/defense penalty depending on quality and weight?
What if they made single weapon talents?

Then auto-equipping would/should definitely be out, I guess.

[Morroian]

Halarid wrote...

If I have to go from point A to point B within an area I wouldn't want the game to teleport me to point B (to cater to players that don't want to fiddle with pesky walking). The same way I don't want Bioware to equip weapons and suits of armor, on characters I control, instead of me (to cater to players that don't want to fiddle with equipping things that help us survive combat).

Why shouldn't they cater to both, as they did?

[TEWR]

I guess it is unfortunate that they don't allow us to roleplay Captain Underpants anymore..

I miss those days. Captain Underpants was amazing.

Both the DAO "incarnation" and the actual Captain Underpants. Ah good times....

Seriously, I do miss fighting with my fists.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 février 2012 - 10:47 .

[Halarid]

Morroian wrote...

Why shouldn't they cater to both, as they did?

They didn't. 


I don't feel catered by having followers who enjoy the benefits of owning genetically modified organic weapons and suits of armor that are programmed to evolve as the holder levels up.