91 réponses à ce sujet

[M. Rieder]

It's not the scripting, or the area design...  Not modifying pages of 2da's to get in that extra bit of custom content...  Not the rigors of conversation writing, or the difficulty of actually coming up with a plot and what should come next...  It's not the mind-numbing repetition of playtesting over... and over... and over again...  and not the thousands of little idiosyncracies of the toolset that make actually finishing a module seem almost impossible...  No, it isn't that.  It is having to put something out there that you have poured months, years even of your life and creativity and care and personality into and open it up to the masses for their judgement.  It's an emotional roller-coaster.  A good vote means a great day, a bad vote or a vote that you feel wasn't fully deserved ... well... modders, you know how it feels - almost like a betrayal - like the people who you have spent monts working for... for free... have turned and bit the hand that feeds them.  The hardest thing is having to put on the happy face and respond to the post in a positive way and thank the poster for their comments and even apologize that they did not have a good time playing the game you made for them and they downloaded for free.  It's tough, but if you love modding and like producing games and get a kick out of it when people enjoy them, you have no real choice.  You just have to accept that not everyone is going to like what you do and focus on the happy players....  not much else to be done, right? 

[Quixal]

Ouch. That was a bad one you got last. Especially low given that the player did seem to enjoy elements of the mod and that the issues he did have could have just as easily been engine or hak related as anything to do with your work. The lack of auto-saves is a non-issue as I see it. Even if you had them in your mod I would not have relied on them.

---
On subject, yeah putting ones work out for criticism is never easy. Even when people are being fair it can hurt. And fairness can hardly be counted on.

[MasterChanger]

You're not wrong. I hope that any potential criticism for your work (and others) turns out to be constructive: not why a certain adventure is terrible, but what could make a great adventure better.

The work that I did was as part of a PW team. On the one hand, that is easier because you have a ready-made support community. Even if everyone else thinks your work stinks, you're hopefully working with people you like and respect and whose work inspires you. On the other hand, players aren't necessarily going to be able to identify what each individual builder worked on, so your work as an individual is less exposed. So, there are upsides and downsides to different kinds of building.

All in all, I hope that your experience is rewarding for you. Looking at how far you've come in the relatively short time since Wizard's Apprentice I was released, I think you should be very proud of your work.

[Dorateen]

I've never used Autosave. That was the big issue the person had? Save early and save often, that's what I say. At the player's discretion, of course.

But you are still sitting with a score above 9, with lots of votes. So I would just take the criticism with a grain of salt, let it roll right off. And keep on building.

Harumph!

[Arkalezth]

I can only imagine as I'm not a modder myself.

I agree with Dorateen, lack of autosave doesn't make a module bad, but relying on it may make you a bad player. It's nice to have it sometimes, just in case, but hardly a big issue. I have played the modules of the people posting here, *cough* except Shagret *cough*, and I don't remember if they have autosave. Hell, I've even been playing one these days and I hadn't noticed.

[Alupinu]

**This comment has been officially withdrawn.**

All right, who’s got the oil? Apparently there are trolls among us.
Well Matt, you’re a better man then I am. I’m not sure if I could have given such a polite response. About the game saves, does he need help going to the toilet as well? Sense when is saving a game the modders responsibility anyway? Save triggers is a curtsey not a rule.

As for the game crashes well you might want to ask if he is patched up to 1.23. I’ve had a couple of players make that mistake.
It’s just one person, probable some kind of control freak. Don’t let it get you down you only empower him.

Modifié par Alupinu, 03 février 2012 - 03:18 .

[MokahTGS]

 I do not believe that guy was a troll...his comments were fair and he offered a valid opinion.  Granted, that hearing it is not always great, but it's words to chew on.

Autosaving should not be a reason to vote down, but he mentioned that the lack of autosaving combined with the bugs he experienced, made playing frustrating.  I can understand that.  I do have to wonder how much playing he has actually done of SP modules, since quick saving is always a better idea.  Perhaps he's a PW player...nothing but autosave there.

The linear conversations is a comment that I think all mod authors should take note of.  The only problem with this is the sheer amount of work it takes to make non-linear conversations.  I'm very guiltty of making linear convos, mainly because, I tend to write for adventure modules, not RPGs.

Take Jabberwocky for example.  The player is not anyone they want to be.  The protagonist is the son of a tavern owner, who returns home after fighting in the king's army.  If the player chooses a gnome, assasin/warlock or a female drow sorcerer, the dialogue will not fit, and niether will the setting.  Should I plan for every eventuality in dialogue?  No.  You can't.  As an amature builder, it just is not practical.  I can make suggestions to the player as to class/race and play-style, but I'm prepared for the 3 or 4 votes that just don't like what I'm doing.  That is the lot of a builder.  Take the lumps, but remember that the player is not always right.  Sometimes they are very biased and just wrong.  Sometimes, they just don't understand what you were going for.

[Quixal]

MokahTGS wrote...
 I do not believe that guy was a troll...his comments were fair and he offered a valid opinion.  Granted, that hearing it is not always great, but it's words to chew on.

Agreed. I think his vote compared with what he said about the module was low though.

MokahTGS wrote...
Sometimes, they just don't understand what you were going for.

Usually this happens despite a very detailed description from the auther outlining what they were going for...

[Dann-J]

As a rule, I prefer to avoid putting autosaves in modules. All they do is alert the player that something potentially nasty is about to happen, which spoils the surprise. How hard is it to hit the F12 button every few minutes?

The one exception was in Isle of Shrines, at the start of the neutral plot line. You've just pulled yourself out of the water, exhaustion is imminent (with hits to STR, DEX, INT and movement speed when it kicks in), and something nasty (but thankfully with few hit points) is about to add insult to injury. A first-level wizard with low constitution could easily be killed by a single lucky hit, and I didn't want the player to have to restart the game and go through the initial cutscene again (after playing it for all of a few seconds).

[nicethugbert]

That's why you got to run things past me first.

[Shallina]

My attempsts to use auto save decently are all failure.

[phil76]

M. Rieder, I understand your feeling.

I don't make mod, I make models (Krighaur is my name for the vault). When you spend 3 hours per day working on things you give for free it's hard to accept a bad comment and a very bad note. I know it's the rule, and if you don't want bad note you can disallow comments and notes, but these are our only rewards and 4.5 for a project that took you monthes of work, and that you are still working on to make it better ...

Bah it makes you stay away from NWN 2 for some days !

Modifié par phil76, 02 février 2012 - 10:14 .

[Arkalezth]

Agreed with Quixal, I don't think he's a troll, but those things he mentions hardly justify such a vote, unless it's a bad module, which is not the case. Mokah has a point, though. And as Dann said, the main use I see for autosaves is after cutscenes.

Mokah: I don't think linearity is bad, I've played very good modules with linear story and/or conversations. I prefer linearity over several dialogue options with the same result, or the typical, poorly done alignment options where you end being either a goody two shoes or a baby eater.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 02 février 2012 - 10:16 .

[Alupinu]

Ok maybe calling him a troll is a little harsh but when a mod gets nothing but high 8’s and 9’s and somebody comes along and gives you a 4.5 that's just being intentionally rude. I don't care what anybody says.

Let’s not forget people, one minute of game play is at least two hours of building. Two hours of a modders life that cannot be salvaged back. That alone is worth at least a 5.

On the subject of RPG style conversations. Have you ever tried to write a RPG style conv.? I have and let me tell you it can turn into a 20 - 30,000 word nightmare in a hurry – no thank you. Besides I’m a hack & slash player, conv are like standing in line at a night club, I just want to get where the action is.

As far as auto saves go, will I like to use them at the entrance of an area and nowhere else. As stated above they can be a giveaway but on the other hand A-S can also be a suspense builder. Kind of like hearing footsteps and not knowing why. All depends what the author is shooting for mood wise. Now I feel like I’m getting off topic.

My point being is this. I’m working on my second year with my current project and when it gets released if I get a bunch of 4.5’s well I’ll be looking for a new hobby. *So careful player’s don’t shoot yourself in the foot!*

[MokahTGS]

 I agree that his vote was low, but I also think that the community puts far too much emphasis on the voting system that at worst is broken and at best is ill-designed.  It is the main reason I founded the AME, so that authors could get recognition from people outside of the thoughtless voting process.

If you look through the votes and reviews of my NWN module Vertex, you'll see a share of bad votes.  I probably deserved some, but not all.  Some were just low because people didn't like humor mods...which that's hard to design around.  It's either a humor mod or it isn't.  You can't have both.

At any rate, as builders, we need to accept that there will sometime be those reviews and votes that aren't tens...or even fives.  With Jabberwocky, as long as I get a "NEAT" and a comment complaining how the "Jub Jub birds are freakin' hard...wuts wrong with you!!!" I'll be happy.  In the end, I'm doing this for me, not for other people.  We would all do well to keep that in mind.

[kamal_]

The poster was rating you based on bugs in their setup or NWN2 bugs they ran in to, which is bad form in my opinion, there's nothing you can do about crashes. In fact I suspect it would be fairly hard to intentionally cause a crash. I never had a crash or problem when I played Wizard's Apprentice. In fact the poster has made another post saying they redownloaded WA, and no more crashes. Hopefully they'll change your score appropriately.

Remember, outlier scores are dropped anyway. That score probably didn't change your overall score.

[Dann-J]

MokahTGS wrote...
In the end, I'm doing this for me, not for other people.  We would all do well to keep that in mind.

I spent around a year polishing 'Isle of Shrines', and at the end decided that I didn't care what other people thought. I released it because *I* was pleased with the outcome - and I still find myself playing it with different characters at different levels to see what the encounter triggers and NPC level-up packages throw at me. I didn't allow voting because I'd already pleased my toughest critic (me). Plus I didn't want people posting spoilers (or spam for that matter).

If you build modules to please others more than to please yourself, then you'll always be disappointed. You can't please everyone all the time.

[Shaun the Crazy One]

OK, I feel really bad about this now (my vault alias is InsaneSmilie btw). I like to think we have a tight community here, god knows M. Rieder has helped me several times in the past, so it hurts me to know the stress I've caused a fellow builder. When I review games (or anything for that matter) I tend to put my criticism hat on and try to identify any and all the flaws I can. That the creator might find this upsetting never occurred to me at the time, and when I saw this thread my heart sank because I honestly though I had written a good review. I do have a habit of pick games apart when I play them, drove Eguintir crazy when I did play testing for him (now I have to wonder if that's one of the reasons he left), on the one hand it identifies areas for improvement, but it can also be discouraging.

M. Rieder, I wanted you to know that I have nothing but respect for your work and meant no ill will.

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

Any good art class will throw you through critique, which means you have to learn how to deal with all your work's flaws getting pointed out right in front of you. Even so, I've snapped at a commenter or two, but I think it's more the flame-culture aspect of the internets coming out, and not any real hostility. Folks need to vent, and clicking on the 4.5 is too easy. But in the rater's defense, he did it when it really wouldn't after your overall average, since the bottom 10% of your ratings get dropped from the average.

The bad comments can be good, though, in that they make it impossible to get complacent about the bugs and the sloppy edges of the module. Positive comments are a lot more motivating though, and it's kinda sad how little feedback we modder's get. People don't want to post spoilers, and players are too busy playing to hang out on the boards discussing their favorite modules. Sometimes I wish we could just watch over their shoulder every now and then, the way PW DMs must do all the time.

And I absolutely no use for multiple-choice conversations. I stopped my last replay of the NWN2 OC at the first conversation option. I just see the point reading through a bunch of lines my PC might say, it just breaks up the flow of the conversation and story without giving the player anything interesting to do.

[MokahTGS]

Again...I caution authors to not get too wrapped up in the voting process. EE took the votes and download counts WAY too seriously and in the end, was looking for high votes as sign of a healthy community and for validation of the modding process.

If that is what anyone is doing this for, you are going to end up disappointed. When this ceases to be fun, do something that is.

I did not think that your review was overly critical. You stated your opinion, and what you saw as flaws. It is up to the authors to take that how they will.

I'm assuming that people will say that my modules use too much pink...which, shows their ignorance, in the end.

Looking at the voting standards:

10[/b] - A Masterpiece, Genuinely Groundbreaking
9[/b] - Outstanding, a Must Have
8[/b] - Excellent, Recommended to Anyone
7[/b] - Very Good, Deserves a Look
6[/b] - Good, Qualified Recommendation
5[/b] - Fair, Solid yet Unremarkable 
4[/b] - Some Merit, Requires Improvements
3[/b] - Poor Execution, Potential Unrealized
2[/b] - Very Little Appeal
1[/b] - Not Recommended to Anyone 

A 4 is low, but not cruel.  But like I said, the voting system on the vault is BAD.  Generally a vote of 8 or below and people think you hated something.  You either vote 10 or nothing.  Quite frankly, the votes are meaningless anyway, since there will never be enough votes to unseat the current top mods in the list.  NEVER.  They will be #1 forever now, because the community is not large enough to produce the votes.

I personally like the endorsment method that the TES community uses on the Nexus.  You endorse a file or don't.  No voting.  You also can comment on a file without endorsing it, which helps authors improve the files.  But even this has it's faults, as searching for files based on endorsements can easily miss valuable files that just don't have a thumbs up.

My bigest pet peeve with the Vault is that you cannot disable voting without disabling comments.

Modifié par MokahTGS, 03 février 2012 - 02:07 .

[MokahTGS]

**double post**

Modifié par MokahTGS, 03 février 2012 - 02:12 .

[MokahTGS]

 You can see my voting record for my Vertex module here:

http://nwvault.ign.c...uster=9&id=2749 

The last vote was a 3.00.  Not a troll either...he just didn't like it.

[Dann-J]

The biggest problem with the voting system is with how few people actually take the time to vote. Compare the number of votes to the number of downloads for any module, and it seems that you're lucky if *10% of the people who downloaded it bothered to vote. That's not a very representative sample - and chances are only those people who either really loved it or really hated it bothered to vote at all.

That suggests that the outliers of your normal distribution are determining your average! That's just statistical wackiness.

[* Edit: More like 1 to 2%, after gathering some actual stats)

Modifié par DannJ, 03 février 2012 - 03:07 .

[Alupinu]

@Shaun, I read your last post above and it is obvious that you’re a man of integrity and that I have to respect. The rest of the people are right you’re not a troll and so with that I with draw my earlier comment about a troll and flask of oil.

For the record it was not the comments that upset me but the score which in *my* eyes seemed like an attempt to punish the author for not building the mod you wanted. The comments themselves seemed to be well worded and not insulting but honest.