91 réponses à ce sujet

[Arkalezth]

What Mokah said, agreed on everything, except maybe about the pink. I don't think EE's approach was a good one, and yes, the Vault system is CRAP.

I think one of the reasons why you don't see much votes is because you can't vote without commenting. You can't just click on a number and walk away, and not everyone is willing to write a review just to vote. Yes, you can just write "good module" and move on, but personally, I like to write something else. If voting without commenting was enabled, you still wouldn't see a lot votes, but maybe a bit more. I'm not too familiar with the Nexus, but from what I've heard, it looks like a better system (well, just about anything would be a better system).

Shaun: Critique is good and I understand how you can get frustrated with bugs. I didn't think you had bad intentions, I just was a bit surprised about how you put much emphasis in some things I consider mostly irrelevant, and apparently based your vote on them (at least that's how it looked to me).

For the record, I'll say that I'm currently testing Matt's second's module and I'm constantly bombarding him with critics without giving a single compliment (even though there are many things I like, most things actually) and he's taking them well.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 03 février 2012 - 03:18 .

[MokahTGS]

 I'll just say it now, so it gets fixed:  The Wizards Apprentice 2 does not have enough pink.  Add more.

[Shaun the Crazy One]

I very strongly agree with Mokah on the voting system.  According to the score card, which I have been going by, a 5 should be average.  Look a other comments though, most people will vote a 7 on a mod they didn't like, which not only throw off the scale.  Now if one person were to vote a 0 on a decent mod that would negate 5 positive votes because of the way voting trends shift the scale.  I would much more prefer an endorsement method.  I typically only play mods discussed here on the forums anyways.  I feel more sentimental about a game when I watched be made and got to talk with the developer.

Alupinu wrote...

@Shaun, I read your last post above and it is obvious that you’re a man of integrity and that I have to respect. The rest of the people are right you’re not a troll and so with that I with draw my earlier comment about a troll and flask of oil.

For the record it was not the comments that upset me but the score which in *my* eyes seemed like an attempt to punish the author for not building the mod you wanted. The comments themselves seemed to be well worded and not insulting but honest.

I didn't the Wizard's Apprentice was bad at all.  I enjoyed playing it, and there were some things I liked, some I didn't, a few minor bugs here and there, about what you whould expect for a designers first mod.  I whould expect to receive similar feedback on my own first mod (once I release it, which I swear I will, it's almost done).  I though it was about average, which according to the score card is a 5.

[Jezla]

It was difficult at first for me to get over the complaints that my mini-mods were too short, and thus not worthy of a vote. Hello, what part of "mini" do you not understand? But the general response was positive, so I don't worry too much. I agree that the ranking and HOF system causes unhealthy competition.

@Pain - Your story about the elven eyebrows makes me think of the comments about the pink curatins in Lowena!

[kamal_]

Some time ago I saw a blog post by an author of a highly scoring hall of fame module. They were curious whether scores had gone up over time, with newer modules scoring higher. So they plotted it all out and and it turned out that hadn't really happened (they had said they expected it would). There was a small increase, but only something like 0.1.

On the other hand, let's say the community modules I'd played were Harp and Chrysanthemum, Misery Stone, Dark Waters, and White Plume Mountain. I could rate these a "5", since they were all about average for what I've played, and 5 is supposed to be average. Then I played Path of Evil, and I gave it a 3 because it's clearly not up to the average module.

/ so to the makers of those modules, darn you for breaking the curve!!!

[Shallina]

We aren't paid at all for the module. Wich mean the marks are of little value. The only things that matter, is : "are you happy with your work ?" , "did you succeed with what you wanted to do ?"

And the most important : Do you have the experience you wanted to have while playing it ?

If you can answer yes to that, then you score a 10

Modifié par Shallina, 03 février 2012 - 02:24 .

[kamal_]

When I vote on modules, whether I liked it or not doesn't really affect the score. For me I look at a few things. Whether they accomplished what they are trying to do (so I don't score down because Wizards Apprentice doesn't support my 8 int barbarian). Technical competence in pursuit of the story (Misery Stone's use of camera angles and area lighting for instance). Do things ingame like area design and conversations support what they are aiming for. Are there obvious problems like atrocious spelling all over the place (spelling mistakes in general don't affect my score, I know they can happen).

A 10 is weird, because that's for "grounbreaking". A module can be groundbreaking without being exceptional. For instance you could have some completely new game mechanic you implemented that's central to the story, but it was very buggy and the module is otherwise not particularly good.

[Quixal]

Iforgotmypassword, You are Tsongo right?

I figure I should say that I do really like your mod, or what I have seen of it. I have not voted on it because despite four separate attempts, I have not actually managed to complete it due to unrelated computer failure issues.

Shaun, it seems I was rather harsh. Your post did seem well reasoned. I was mostly reacting to the vote which seemed harsh considering the engine was the likely culprit for some of your problems. Odd given I try to stick to at least the spirit of the voting system myself. So I offer my apologies.

Modifié par Quixal, 03 février 2012 - 02:48 .

[Quixal]

double post

Modifié par Quixal, 03 février 2012 - 02:45 .

[Shaughn78]

This is quite the thread and some really good stuff is being discussed.

I will try not repeat too much, but the voting system is a mess. The "standards" posted by Mokah are ignored and have really turned into a 3 vote system: 8-10 liked it, 5-6 not that great, <5 hated it, why'd you either bother.

Matt we have all gotten critiques that we did not like, agree with or even understand. As you said in your post, we answer these with positive comments and often questions to get the full picture of what is going on. While you may not agree with the comments, at least a lengthy explanation of the vote was given. My lowest vote had a single sentence "Well since the story just picks up when it ends I feel that I can't give this one any more than a 6, for the interesting characters." My all time favorite comment is from a play tester, who after finding a game stopping bug told me he didn't have time to play a game with bugs in it. As builders we definately have a defensive love of our work. We enjoy praise, because we spent an ungodly amount of time creating these adventures. Constructive criticism can only improve our games. When critiques of game design are posted I try to offer explanations of why I did something a certain way, sometimes that help other times it doesn't. There are so many different play styles and each of our games will have a click that really enjoys it, while there will be others that just don't enjoy our chosen play style.

As regular members of these boards we are familiar with each others projects, and we all have respect each other. Chances are we have either been helped or have helped each other on some aspect of game building. The feedback we offer each other can really improve our work. In regards to this feedback I would much rather prefer a dialog opposed to a single post, and to me the vault is not the best forum for that. If any of you are playing my game I would encourage you to message me and have a dialog about my game. I would also prefer to message another builder and tell them what I think, bugs I found, or critique design decisions. Shortly after I released Risen Hero EC Patterson sent me a quite a thorough review. At first it was a bit disheartening to read, but the ideas and questions he raised were very good and lead to an update that included a lot of things from his review. We know the toolset and the work that goes into it and we are likely the hardest (with realistic expectations) reviewers.

So I am advocating that as builders we take a bit more of a personal touch to our reviews of each others work. Sent that pm and create some 2-way conversation so even after release we can continue to help each other and improve the products that our hobby creates.

[kamal_]

I've PMd builders to ask if they'd like me to send them screenshots of spelling errors or other problems I might run into. If they're interested I zip up all the screenshots of bugs I spotted while playing. It's easier than a written out like since it only requires making sure the bug is visible onscreen and hitting the printscreen. I know how hard eliminating every possible bug is, and there's no need to air a detailed buglist out on the Vault where it can be a spoiler. Doing it privately makes it not an "attack" but just a post release bug report.

[M. Rieder]

I appreciate all the comments.

@Shaun,

No hard feelings at all. The comments were never an issue with me and I thought they were very good. I have already put autosaves in TWA2. What Shaughn said about the voting system here:

"but the voting system is a mess. The "standards" posted by Mokah are ignored and have really turned into a 3 vote system: 8-10 liked it, 5-6 not that great, <5 hated it, why'd you either bother."

Really sums up my surprise and disappointment with the whole affair. Since you gave me a 4.5 I interpreted that as you either really didn't like the module or thought it wasn't very good. Now that you have explained your perspective on the voting system and that you did like the mod, I understand the entire situation - and feel much better.


I also will add that although my recent experience was the impetus for this thread, I have often felt that it is unfortunate when modders receive very harsh votes (not including shaun's vote, which I now understand and do not consider harsh or extreme) and I wanted to talk about it.


I think that lots of people have raised very good points and I feel that I will be able to handle future votes much better and with more understanding.

[M. Rieder]

kamal_ wrote...

A 10 is weird, because that's for "grounbreaking". A module can be groundbreaking without being exceptional. For instance you could have some completely new game mechanic you implemented that's central to the story, but it was very buggy and the module is otherwise not particularly good.

I think a 10 should be changed to "windbreaking".  

[ElfinMad]

Long time lurker here. To be honest, I think people need to harden up a little. I recall seeing a few cases where modders get all upset that their module which has 50+ votes and an average of 8 - 9.5 was given a 5 by someone who is more critical or votes according to the rules. The saying "to spit the dummy" comes to mind when I read posts like these.

I know it can be frustrating to receive low votes -- I've authored a couple of modules under another name (lookup Defenders of Nesseloodin, no 1s please  ) -- but if the only enjoyment a modder gets out of modding is the download count and votes then they should stop.

Modifié par ElfinMad, 03 février 2012 - 08:14 .

[Hellfire_RWS]

ElfinMad wrote...

Long time lurker here. To be honest, I think people need to harden up a little. I recall seeing a few cases where modders get all upset that their module which has 50+ votes and an average of 8 - 9.5 was given a 5 by someone who is more critical or votes according to the rules. The saying "to spit the dummy" comes to mind when I read posts like these.

I know it can be frustrating to receive low votes -- I've authored a couple of modules under another name (lookup Defenders of Nesseloodin, no 1s please  ) -- but if the only enjoyment a modder gets out of modding is the download count and votes then they should stop.

...Repsone removed...

[The Fred]

The thing is, that's not really the issue. Someone who tries to use the Vault's rating system gets a lot of stick for it because they're not using the same system as everyone else. Likewise, it can look harsh to a person who is using the same system as everyone else. I try to aim for a middle ground; I won't follow the guidelines to the letter but I try to be relatively critical in my votes, and rarely if ever give a 10 since there's almost always something which can be improved. I would expect only the same myself, though.

EDIT: For example, I do not really think that Yellow Mold, of all things, is as good as real-time 3D pentagram drawing.

DannJ wrote...The biggest problem with the voting system is with how few people actually take the time to vote.

The thing is that for a module, I don't want to vote on it until I've finished it... and I rarely finish them. I think for example that I still haven't voted on Last of the Danaan, because whilst I enjoyed and could review what I have played, it might suddenly get even better, or really bad, after a while, or it might just be more of the same, etc.

MokahTGS wrote... 
Should I plan for every eventuality in dialogue?  No.  You can't.

Well, it's certainly turning out to be more work than I thought it would be...

Iveforgotmypassword wrote...
I absolutely agree with the original post and know the feeling very well but am now completely past caring.

This. At the end of the day, peasants who dont' accept your mastery of module-building should just be exectued.

Dorateen wrote...
I've never used Autosave... Save early and save often, that's what I say.

THIS is the problem with people today. Screw that - don't save at all. If you die, well you are dead, and you deserved it because you failed. Reloading is admitting defeat, which means you have no honour and should probably commit ritual suicide anyway. Man up and learn to deal with the consequences of your actions (and enemy critical hits).

Modifié par The Fred, 04 février 2012 - 01:04 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

From what i can tell certain things tend to be really popular and get lots of votes, and other things are just ignored. Some people vote all 1's, others all 10's, and you are just not going to have a system that can actually be fair measure of actual quality. It's more of a measure of how many people you can convince to vote ( you should see how fast a new PW can rise to the top if it's got a large population ). If users only used those votes, well they probably would not use quite a few of the things which you will see recommended in these forums.

I just look for "NEAT...", if it's there then what's been done has a great rating. It's not that i need presidential approval alone, it's more that of the few votes i've gotten, i am far more concerned with how those i know and respect vote than with the random internet denizen who is in between WoW sessions.

[Arkalezth]

Iveforgotmypassword wrote...

 now you need about 9.4 due to download numbers so getting knocked down by some unthinking fool ( just because he/she didn't like something or believes voting standards should be adhered to when nobody else does ) can put you out of view for a very long time indeed.

Sorry but I have to disagree with that, in a way. Just because you don't like how the so-called "voting standards" are defined, that doesn't make anyone who uses them an unthinking fool. Actually, if people followed them, the vault voting system would probably be more effective. They're like in exams, a 7 should be a fine rating but some people take a 7 like an insult. And no, I don't really follow the "voting standards", so I don't feel attacked, but I actually find them pretty objective and accurate, and frankly, I wonder who is the bigger unthinking fool: the guy who plays a good, but far from perfect module and gives it a 7, or the one who has the same impression and gives it a 10. The problem you mention is created by the latter, not by the former.

I'm really not in the mood to engage in an argument about this, I agree with you about some things and I've already defined Vault's voting system as crap, but I found the "unthinking fool" part kinda offensive (not to me, but in general), and I felt like I should comment it.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 04 février 2012 - 04:03 .

[Taurus Daggerknight]

Can't really comment on the module crafting side, as the only levels I have made have been for a PW, but regarding anything else I put out, I actually find myself hoping for some critical feedback. As long as its not some troll just going "lolz ths suxxorz lol" without anything useful to add...

Not sure how I feel about the rating system. More than votes, I want to see comments, and again, as much as l like nods of approval and I, i'd really like to hear some critique. Not going to get any better without it way I see it.

(And community size has nothing to do with the lack of votes/ comments if the download counts are any indication!!!!)

[The Fred]

The thing is that you can kind of take a low vote as harsh, but it's somewhat the voter's prerogative. So long as they are giving valid reasons and feedback, well... it can be tough if you don't think those reasons are sufficient justification, and yes it can be quite upsetting even if you know it doesn't really matter, you often can't help but feel a bit put out about it, but at the end of the day that's why we have an average thing. Pretty much everything I've uploaded to the Vault has gotten almost all 9s and 10s (as I said I'm not sure they all deserve them) but about four at most.

EDIT: Also modules get worse votes. I mean, coming back to the same example, my yellow mould is yellow and mouldy, and as such fits about 100% of the criteria for good yellow mould. There's less room for opinion there, so it's going to get better marks because even though it's not groundbreaking, it doesn't have a lot to live up to. By contrast it's so much easier to find something you can improve in a module.

Modifié par The Fred, 04 février 2012 - 10:35 .

[Arkalezth]

I understand what you mean and you're right, that's never going to happen. I only wanted to point out that the "voting standards" themselves aren't that bad, even though it's all a mess in the end. On the other hand, I have to say that there are many modules that deserve a high score, so many of those votes are well placed indeed.

The Nexus has been mentioned. I wonder if the Vault system could be changed to something like that. Maybe it's too late for it, or maybe something could be done, I don't know.