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[tetrisblock4x1]

I didn't like BGII a lot. It was absolutely fascinating to me but then the dream sequences ended and it started losing steam until Spellhold where everything got back on track until I got back to the surface and did a bunch of plot unrelated things to get better. BGII style and strong character driven narrative do not complement each other. Or even the opposite depending on who you ask (me).

[Phaedon]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Letting Balak go is naivety at it's best.

That's not what naive at all. Words have meanings. You know.

It's only naive if you think that he'll stop doing his terrroristy stuff. Unless you are trying to imply that most Paragons who saved the hostages thought that he'd reform, while he gives signs for the exact opposite.

There is absolutely no confirmation that the Rachni were indoctrinated. No matter how "obvious" you think it was, there was never any form of evidence. Making assumptions does not count as being logical.

Out of curiosity, when was the last time you played ME1, and did you just skip all of Benezia's dialogue back then, too?

[Phaedon]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
Some examples:

Rachni Queen:  
Renegade- Kill her, you get Council thanks and a potential galactic threat is put down but could've been an ally.  
Paragon- Spare her, you get questioned/admonished by the Council but an entire race is vowed to sing your praises.

OK, you guys definitely need to replay ME1. What.

Council Decision:  
Renegade- You lose a lot of lives but humanity also takes over the Council... to a truly "red" degree if you went full renegade on that decision.
Paragon-  You lose a lot of human lives but Humanity has the Council's respect and a seat at the Council.

That wasn't shown at all. That's like saying that the Wrex/Wreav choice matters in ME2 because you personally feel a bit different.

[tetrisblock4x1]

Her dialogue was horrible, wouldn't blame anyone for skipping it. But you might be confusing Benezia for that nameless asari commando possessed by the Rachni?

[Dave of Canada]

Benezia was Liara's daughter, she mentions how Saren has the magical ability to convince you to do things and she resisted for a while. Immediately after this, you have the Rachni Queen tell you that her ancestors hear a strange yellow note, implying indoctrination.

Following what Shepard knows, provided they don't do Noveria last:

• Saren mind-controls people.
• The Rachni Queen is telling you something weird happened a long time ago with a sour yellow note.

Depending how much trust you place on the Queen simply not lying to your face after hearing about indoctrination, you could believe her ancestors were indoctrinated. Whether or not it passed down to her is another argument entirely.

You get scolded by the Council / team either way, which was one of the things which ME1 did right.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 05 février 2012 - 04:48 .

[DPSSOC]

Vulcan101 wrote...

 I was first introduced to the mass effect games via ME2 and the introduction of a morality system deeply impressed me ( it has so much potential!) in any case here is some of my views.

How I will play ME3 after two games of renegade  choices

After letting the council die and saving the base for IM and after all those innocent deaths after arrival, I was thinking how all this would effect the psychology of Shep.

In my canon shep, ME3 will be a redemption mission, especially because of the upcoming trial ( my prediction is guilty) and war with the reapers. Shepard seeks to right the wrong of her past decisions.
So it will be a change from full on renegade to paragon. 



Renegade choice and letting the council die.

When I was given the choice in the interactive comic the first time I played the game decided to let the council die ( there can always be a new one.) my reasoning was that Sovereign was a greater risk and top priory was to stop it not save the council. The Consequence of human dominance was an unintended afterthought. At the time it seemed like a rational choice.  During my current playthrough

Giving IM the Base.

A tough one, since there is no ( apparent benefits) and clearly you cannot trust IM.
Reasoning: In theory there are benefits from acquiring and studying technology. And Collector technology would surely be useful in some department. However, I also rationalised the choice by thinking that Shepard may have felt a debt to IM for Bringing her back from the dead and giving her the crew and the Normandy. ( Feeling of debt can cause irrational choices.) finally I would see it as a last resort. The alliance would not dare operate in the Terminus systems or go beyond the Omega 4 relay, so only the 
im and Cerberus could do it.

I'm actually doing kind of the opposite to this, my Shep starts off mostly Paragon (Paragade technically he's still a badass) but grows more and more bitter about being repeatedly stabbed in the back by the galaxy he's trying to save.

Honestly I wish (know it won't happen but I can dream) Bioware would give us the option to play a Shepard who's just stopped caring and isn't willing to fight anymore.  It'd be a short playthrough where you basically have a conversation with Anderson or some other major NPC and say that you quit.  Cut to Reaper win cinematic and Critical Mission Failure.  Like I said I know it won't happen but I would love to have that option, there's only so many times a person can save people intent on flying full speed into oblivion before he just gives up.

On the content issue it's mostly about presentation (a problem with the whole PvR system).  Renegade acknowledgements when they come (and some aren't acknowledged period), are in the form of news feeds which, unless you engage every terminal on the Citadel a ridiculous number of times, are random background noise and very easy to miss.  Paragon acknowledgements are much more personal, an NPC you recognize approaches you (ok you approach them) and says, "Hey Shepard you know that thing you did, it happened."  It's also nearly impossible to miss these because either A) it's an email and can be retouched throughout the entire playthrough at the players choosing,  It's an NPC cameo where they basically shout, "Shepard! Shepard over here! Shepard!" or C) it's part of main story conversation.  Now this doesn't cover all acknowledgements there are personally engaging Renegade acknowledgements and passive background Paragon acknowledgements, but it's true for most aknowledgements.

I think that's what Renegade players are really asking for, more engaging acknowledgements of their past actions.  It doesn't have to be friendly, it doesn't have to be positive, but that personal connection of having another entity, particularly a familliar face, in the universe acknowledge what you did rather than some disembodied voice we have no knowledge of or connection to can make a huge difference.

[IllusiveMike]

Phaedon wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

There is absolutely no confirmation that the Rachni were indoctrinated. No matter how "obvious" you think it was, there was never any form of evidence. Making assumptions does not count as being logical.

Out of curiosity, when was the last time you played ME1, and did you just skip all of Benezia's dialogue back then, too?

Yes, I have played ME1 far too many times to abide this mis-information.

To clairify, the Queen states "something soured the songs" of her ancestors.  The "songs" being how the Rachni communicate and the "souring" of that communication being indoctrination. 

And the Council does NOT thank you for killing the queen; in fact, they seem a bit repulsed that Shepard committed genocide. 

The Turian asks Shepard if he is in the habit of doing that, to which Renegade-Shep can reply: "It depends on the species, Turian." 

Further, It is strongly hinted in the series that insect races are more vulnerable to indoctrination (See: Keepers, Rachni, & Collectors).

Modifié par IllusiveMike, 05 février 2012 - 04:52 .

[royard]

Collider wrote...

What content does Shepard get from The Fist encounter that the Renegade doesn't?

A conversation, a cameo, and an acknowledgement of a past decision. Continuity.

Renegade players get nothing whatsoever. He may as well have never met Fist.

It's nothing to write home about, but it's content that paragon Shepard gets and renegade Shepard doesn't. So far as choice and outcome? Paragon gets an outcome, renegade players don't.

Shep simply killed one of those small-time under-bosses of a nondescript gang.  I'm pretty sure that's nothing to him, especially if you chose the ruthless background.  He no longer cared about Fist as soon as he is no longer a concern. 

I, for one, think this is the correct way of handling things: if you choose to end the problem right then and there, it ends.  Fist dies, no more fluff.  Does a real-life jaded merc care about the guy he may or may not have killed on a Tuesday or Wednesday?  probably not.  It's the deliberate lack of content that makes this method of presentation good. 

My problem with the Renegade path is that Shep behaves like a tool in the main arc.  He's simply too enthusiastic about TIM's goals, and he trusts Cerberus too much.  I mean, even the paragon Shep recognizes that Cerberus has a hidden agenda and may not be actually on his side, but renegade Shep just buys whatever TIM says. 

[Bleachrude]

 A good question is "was the genophage a paragon or renegade option?"

Keep in mind that as per Mordin, the salarians couldve EASILY developed a geneweapon that simply killed the krogans outright...

[Phaedon]

IllusiveMike wrote...
Further, It is strongly hinted in the series that insect races are more vulnerable to indoctrination (See: Keepers, Rachni, & Collectors).

Good catch.

[CroGamer002]

Phaedon wrote...

IllusiveMike wrote...
Further, It is strongly hinted in the series that insect races are more vulnerable to indoctrination (See: Keepers, Rachni, & Collectors).

Good catch.

Interesting.

[Hunter of Legends]

Saphra Deden wrote...

So a Renegade is getting a lot less out of the game.

This has been communicated since ME1.

Saren is the biggest signal that you shouldn't be a renegade.

[incinerator950]

Saphra Deden wrote...

royard wrote...

I, for one, think this is the correct way of handling things:

Well that's retarded.

You know why? It completely undoes the import feature. It means that only one morality has anything to import.

So a Renegade is getting a lot less out of the game.

I don't think Bioware intended for the Rengades to get much out of ME 3 anyway.

[Hunter of Legends]

IllusiveMike wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

There is absolutely no confirmation that the Rachni were indoctrinated. No matter how "obvious" you think it was, there was never any form of evidence. Making assumptions does not count as being logical.

Out of curiosity, when was the last time you played ME1, and did you just skip all of Benezia's dialogue back then, too?

Yes, I have played ME1 far too many times to abide this mis-information.

To clairify, the Queen states "something soured the songs" of her ancestors.  The "songs" being how the Rachni communicate and the "souring" of that communication being indoctrination. 

And the Council does NOT thank you for killing the queen; in fact, they seem a bit repulsed that Shepard committed genocide. 

The Turian asks Shepard if he is in the habit of doing that, to which Renegade-Shep can reply: "It depends on the species, Turian." 

Further, It is strongly hinted in the series that insect races are more vulnerable to indoctrination (See: Keepers, Rachni, & Collectors).

THe Keepers and Collectors may/weren't Insectiod at the time.

But glad someone noticed the themes going on here instead of just labeling everything bad writing out of their own ignorance.

[Hunter of Legends]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

So a Renegade is getting a lot less out of the game.

This has been communicated since ME1.

Saren is the biggest signal that you shouldn't be a renegade.

I'll assume this is some kind of really stiff joke.

It isn't, because KotOR did the same thing...the message was just muddled because Bioware didn't do the second game.

[King Minos]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Benezia was Liara's daughter.

That's amazing.

[Phaedon]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Her dialogue was horrible, wouldn't blame anyone for skipping it. But you might be confusing Benezia for that nameless asari commando possessed by the Rachni?

No I am not. I specifically focus on Benezia because the Rachni queen repeats pretty much exactly what Benezia says about indoctrination though she had no means of listening to her.

[Dave of Canada]

King Minos wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Benezia was Liara's daughter.

That's amazing.

Fffff

I blame not having slept yet.


... or Mass Effect fields.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 05 février 2012 - 05:08 .

[Hunter of Legends]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

It isn't, because KotOR did the same thing...the message was just muddled because Bioware didn't do the second game.

So Bioware was judging me for playing the game a certain way the entire time, huh?

I wouldn't put it passed those dip****s.

It's not judgement it's common sense.

You shoot people and bully your way to galactic power there will be negative consequences. Killing of allies and "innocents" will also bring bad karma.

But alas, the ends don't justify the means here.

[DPSSOC]

IllusiveMike wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

There is absolutely no confirmation that the Rachni were indoctrinated. No matter how "obvious" you think it was, there was never any form of evidence. Making assumptions does not count as being logical.

Out of curiosity, when was the last time you played ME1, and did you just skip all of Benezia's dialogue back then, too?

Yes, I have played ME1 far too many times to abide this mis-information.

To clairify, the Queen states "something soured the songs" of her ancestors.  The "songs" being how the Rachni communicate and the "souring" of that communication being indoctrination.

True but unless you do Noveria after Virmire there is no indication that the indoctrination isn't Saren's invention, and as such couldn't be what effected the Rachni.  The indoctrinated we find are all loyal to Saren, and while the source may be the ship there's no indication that Sovereign is anything but a ship, even from Benezia.  It's one of those points in the story that seems intended to get people to think of Sovereign as more than just a ship, or think that there's more going on, but the lack of linear story telling makes this difficult.  If you do Noveria after Feros indoctrination is established, so when we meet Benezia we aren't still coming to terms with the idea when the Queen mentions the sour note.  If you do Noveria first or second though you don't have this reference, the "something" could have simply been the arrival of the Salarians, there could have been something about our technology that enraged them.   As much as I love the open nature of the Mass Effect games it really hurts the storytelling when you can't be sure what nuggets the player will have picked up when they hit certain points.

IllusiveMike wrote...
And the Council does NOT thank you for killing the queen; in fact, they seem a bit repulsed that Shepard committed genocide. 

The Turian asks Shepard if he is in the habit of doing that, to which Renegade-Shep can reply: "It depends on the species, Turian." 

And this is the real reason I kill the Rachni Queen, this one line.

Edit: Because I know how people get when they find someone who's wrong on the internet I'll add that my comments about Mass Effect are being made about 2-4 years after the last time I played the game and I have a poor memory.  I aplogize if I have forgotten some reference that contradicts my assertions and there's no need to get your panties in a twist.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 05 février 2012 - 05:15 .

[BlueMagitek]

I hate to break this to you, Hunter, but both Paragon & Renegade Shepards are going to shoot people. Pure Neutral Shepards are going to shoot people.

And between the two of them, Renegade Shepard isn't the one claiming every store on the Citadel is in fact his favorite store on the Citadel.