756 réponses à ce sujet

[Hunter of Legends]

DPSSOC wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

I hate to break this to you, Hunter, but both Paragon & Renegade Shepards are going to shoot people. Pure Neutral Shepards are going to shoot people.

And between the two of them, Renegade Shepard isn't the one claiming every store on the Citadel is in fact his favorite store on the Citadel.

Paragon shepard doesn't kill innocent people, rough up young Mouse or let injured Salarians and a feeble girl stranded on a planet die FOR ABSOLUTELY no reason.

Hey that's not fair.  There was a perfectly good reason to rough up Mouse, he was being an uncooperative little s*** and you are running on a time limit.  Not entirely getting what the second reference is, apologies poor memory but is that a side mission I missed or...

Hunter of Legends wrote...
I am loving my renegade shep playthrough right now but you renegade players are sadly niave to think there would be no rammifications for your actions.

Terribly ignorant on how this would go down.

Ok here's what you need to get there is a break, a very important break, between punishing Shepard (the character) and punishing the player.  Punish Shepard all you want, but punishing the player by denying them content is not ok.  If you make one path noticeably superior for the player you are doing it wrong.

Then you aren't playing the game right. A full renegade Shepard would love a human dominated galaxy with just humans.

If you find issue with your shepard perhaps you should make consistent decisions?

The hell are you talking about?  My point was that the rammifications for Shepard's actions shouldn't extend to the player.  ME2 does have consequences extending to the player for making Renegade decisions (about 1 hour less content at least) and that' not how it should go.

And I don't have issue with my Shepard, I love my Shepard, but I do have issue with the way certain decisions seem to be going because they don't negatively effect Shepard, just me.  Shepard hasn't been inconvenienced at all (so far), I am getting screwed.

Here I'll give you a bit of a break down of what I'm talking about strictly within the confines of ME2.

Rachni
- No rachni allies punishes Shepard
- No acknowledgement that the Rachni were killed, punishes me

Council
- Not getting Spectre status back and perhaps not having as many alien allies punishes Shepard
- Not getting to see the new Council, punishes me

And for those saying, "Well what did you expect the Rachni are dead what kind of content could you get?"  To which I say one line.  One line spoken by any of the squad or crew from ME1 (I'm thinking Joker) after you complete the suicide mission, "First the Rachni now the Collectors, were you stung as a child?"  That's it, that is all it would take.

Oh, I see your grievence now.

That is less to do with morality and more to do with glossed over story lines. Paragon shep gets that too; I also dislike it greatly. I really do hope they don't make a habit of it in ME3; as far as I can tell they do a slightly better job this time around.

[Dave of Canada]

Wrex is reforming the Krogan.
He's using the Genophage to control the females, which by association controls the other clans.
He's looking toward a brighter future for his people, something which the Krogan haven't seen in ever.

"Do you want me to keep the Genophage cure, Commander?" asked Mordin.
"Nerp, Wrex needs it."  (RENEGADE +2)

In ME3:
Wrex: OMG Y U DO DAT!!!!11


And I can't tell him why, all I can tell him is "sorry" or "U DESERVE IT" and  the games punishes me for not thinking within the simple confines of "do you want to cure or you don't want to".

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 05 février 2012 - 05:56 .

[Hunter of Legends]

jreezy wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

So a Renegade is getting a lot less out of the game.

This has been communicated since ME1.

Saren is the biggest signal that you shouldn't be a renegade.

I'll assume this is some kind of really stiff joke.

It isn't, because KotOR did the same thing...

No it didn't. At least, not in the KOTOR I played where taking the dark side path was a valid option.

For the first game.

As far as I can tell for what Bioware had planned that wasn't going to be the case...this is Star Wars "Jedi are never wrong or fail" video game.

Just ONCE I'd like a Star Wars game were you get to be the successful Darth Vader...oh wait.

[Bleachrude]

DPSSOC wrote...


The hell are you talking about?  My point was that the rammifications for Shepard's actions shouldn't extend to the player.  ME2 does have consequences extending to the player for making Renegade decisions (about 1 hour less content at least) and that' not how it should go.

.

Um, say what?

How exactly do you come up with an hour? I'm thinking at most 5 minutes...

Personally, I'm not sure how the council is seen as a positive for paragon players given that paragon players get "Ah yes, Reapers" for their trouble...

[Hunter of Legends]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Wrex is reforming the Krogan.
He's using the Genophage to control the females, which by association controls the other clans.
He's looking toward a brighter future for his people, something which the Krogan haven't seen in ever.

"Do you want me to keep the Genophage cure, Commander?" asked Mordin.
"Nerp, Wrex needs it."  (RENEGADE +2)

In ME3:
Wrex: OMG Y U DO DAT!!!!11


And I can't tell him why, all I can tell him is "sorry" or "U DESERVE IT" and  the games punishes me for not thinking within the simple confines of "do you want to cure or you don't want to".

I wouldn't disagree some points of the story aren't written well.

For instance ME1, in the beginning you are strongarmed into believing the "fairy tale" reapers story even though they do give you the option to say "We should just tell them about Saren".

God I hated that.

[Candidate 88766]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Paragon choices tend to forge alliances and friendships with other species,

No, not really. For every species you befriend you also alienate another.

Curing the krogan is not what the Council wants.

Restoring the rachni is not what the krogan want.

Empowering the geth is not what the quarians want.

Destroying the base is not what Cerberus wants.

Choices exist in a vaccuum though so nobody ever notices how shiftless and underhanded Paragon Shepard is.

While paragon choices also make conflict, they also often please both sides.

The Krogan could be angered by you saving the Rachni, but you've also kept their cure.

The Council may be angered by you curing the Krogan, but you saved them too and so they owe you.

You have a point with the Geth/Quarian plotline though - you don't really do anything to appease the Quarians depsite being able to help the Geth.

My original point was that a full paragon playthrough, while naive, gives you potential batering chips with near enough every species, while a pure renegade playthrough is more of a placing all your eggs in one basket kind of thing with the focus on helping humanity and Cerberus.

[incinerator950]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

So a Renegade is getting a lot less out of the game.

This has been communicated since ME1.

Saren is the biggest signal that you shouldn't be a renegade.

I'll assume this is some kind of really stiff joke.

It isn't, because KotOR did the same thing...

No it didn't. At least, not in the KOTOR I played where taking the dark side path was a valid option.

For the first game.

As far as I can tell for what Bioware had planned that wasn't going to be the case...this is Star Wars "Jedi are never wrong or fail" video game.

Just ONCE I'd like a Star Wars game were you get to be the successful Darth Vader...oh wait.

Just once I'd like another successful non-Jedi game.  A good sequel to SW Battlefront 2, or Republic Commando, would amaze me.  I'd drop out of Mass Effect and Armored Core if Lucas Arts made an Arcade Star Wars Battlefront with elements from BF1 and BF 2.  

Hell, a new TIE Fighter would amaze me.

[Hunter of Legends]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Paragon choices tend to forge alliances and friendships with other species,

No, not really. For every species you befriend you also alienate another.

Curing the krogan is not what the Council wants.

Restoring the rachni is not what the krogan want.

Empowering the geth is not what the quarians want.

Destroying the base is not what Cerberus wants.

Choices exist in a vaccuum though so nobody ever notices how shiftless and underhanded Paragon Shepard is.

While paragon choices also make conflict, they also often please both sides.

The Krogan could be angered by you saving the Rachni, but you've also kept their cure.

The Council may be angered by you curing the Krogan, but you saved them too and so they owe you.

You have a point with the Geth/Quarian plotline though - you don't really do anything to appease the Quarians depsite being able to help the Geth.

My original point was that a full paragon playthrough, while naive, gives you potential batering chips with near enough every species, while a pure renegade playthrough is more of a placing all your eggs in one basket kind of thing with the focus on helping humanity and Cerberus.

He's to narrow-minded to see that.

Sorry, I meant "far more intelligent than any pea-brained paragon".

[BlueMagitek]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Well which murderor do you speak of there were several?

I know you don't but simply killing him in cold blood isn't the right thing to do. And last I checked not only does shepard NOT answer to the Shadow Broker he isn't one of the good guys...

Yes, I meant deal with Balak, not just kill. I mispoke and meant to say deal with him; regardless my point still stands.

The asari Eclipse Sister on Illium who claims that she's an innocent and certainly wasn't firing at you.  You've the option of letting her go when you've been warned that anyone with her uniform gained it from murder and Zaeed straight up tells her to get against the wall (noticing her uniform).  And then you find out that she was, in fact, a murderer.

He just tried to kill you and your only source of evidence against Saren; it's hardly cold blood.  The Shadow Broker is neutral, one of your teammates works for the Shadow Broker and will kill him if you don't. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Collider wrote...

If I killed the Rachni Queen,why bring it up?

Bioware can easily think of a scenario where it's relevant for a character to bring up Shepard killing the rachni queen. It's no impossible feat.

Two different scenarios come to mind:


An ancient Krogan veteran who fought in the Rachni Warsw, or perhaps a Krogan whose ancestors fought, who wants to give thanks to Shepard after learning the truth. Functionally identical to the Rachni Ambassador*. Their basis for shouting out is recognizing Shepard.

*If you wanted to, you could have her be a descendant of an Asari who fought the Rachni, and simply re-use the same character.



Or, a Noveria executive who recognizes Shepard and thanks Shepard for covering up the Rachni threat. Because the Rachni didn't get loose, the executive could say, Noveria was able to quickly move on without losing customer confidence. His/her basis of speaking out is that Shepard saved them a lot of trouble.


If you wanted to balance rewards and not just cameos, the Noveria executive would be an excellent device to give Renegade players a short-term reward in ME2, while Paragon players get a grander reward in ME3. If Noveria Executive gave resources/credits/a tech upgrade if you killed the Rachni, then you'd get a tactical advantage in ME2 that would be countered by the strategic advantage Rachni saviors would get in ME3. Sparing the Rachni can still be the 'better' choice in terms of War Assets that affect the ending of ME3, but that doesn't mean Renegade choosers have to go without their own (more marginal) advantage.

[Hunter of Legends]

Luc0s wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Paragon choices tend to forge alliances and friendships with other species,

No, not really. For every species you befriend you also alienate another.

Curing the krogan is not what the Council wants.

Restoring the rachni is not what the krogan want.

Empowering the geth is not what the quarians want.

Destroying the base is not what Cerberus wants.

Choices exist in a vaccuum though so nobody ever notices how shiftless and underhanded Paragon Shepard is.

It's called Diplomacy and compromise.

Something people on here seem to forget...

No, diplomacy means negotiating a solution. Nobody was there to negotiate when you freed the rachni queen. Nobody was there to negotiate when you rewrote the geth. Nobody was there to negotiate when you took the genophage cure data. Nobody was there to negotiate when you blew up that Collector base.

Paragon Shepard just does whatever the hell he wants. He does whatever he needs to do to feel good about himself. He never thinks twice about the possible consequences of his actions. And why should he? This is a BioWare game after all. BioWare wouldn't dare to punish the pure-Paragon Shepard for his completely irresponsible actions. 

Nobody was there to even explain to EITHER side wether the krogan should be spared.

Or that the Geth weren't all mindless reaper followers.

Or that the Rachni weren't monsters.

You see paragon shepard's actions but do you see the rest of the galaxies, and by extention other peoples actions? I don't disagree that paragon players should be punished (and we will be...sadly not enough) but some of this is just heavy handed emotion driven response.

The collocter base was made by the reapers and would surely "take humanities soul/aka indoctrinate", therefor destroying it was as viable as keeping it.

The geth rewritting I'll give you but you could ask Legion his view on it; it was a hard moral choice to make but again killing vs saving.

The Rachni had been wiped out by the krogan needlessly. The Council never asked them to do so but the Krogan continued to wipe them out. Who was there to defend them?

I don't disagree that paragon shepard does whatever the hell he wants but so does Rengade shepard...that's the whole point of the game.

[Labrev]

lololololol

Thanks for this thread, OP. I needed a daily laugh.

[BlueMagitek]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

For the first game.

As far as I can tell for what Bioware had planned that wasn't going to be the case...this is Star Wars "Jedi are never wrong or fail" video game.

Just ONCE I'd like a Star Wars game were you get to be the successful Darth Vader...oh wait.

You know Bioware didn't make KotOR II, right?  And that it had a ridiculous amount of cut content?  Dark side was an equally valid path in 2, or as equal as lightside.  The "best" path was presented to be gray.

The Light Side ending is canon for every Star Wars game; that's just the rule instituted by LucasArts.  This means that the dark side endings can be as crazy and awesome as the developer can make them.

[Hunter of Legends]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Well which murderor do you speak of there were several?

I know you don't but simply killing him in cold blood isn't the right thing to do. And last I checked not only does shepard NOT answer to the Shadow Broker he isn't one of the good guys...

Yes, I meant deal with Balak, not just kill. I mispoke and meant to say deal with him; regardless my point still stands.

The asari Eclipse Sister on Illium who claims that she's an innocent and certainly wasn't firing at you.  You've the option of letting her go when you've been warned that anyone with her uniform gained it from murder and Zaeed straight up tells her to get against the wall (noticing her uniform).  And then you find out that she was, in fact, a murderer.

He just tried to kill you and your only source of evidence against Saren; it's hardly cold blood.  The Shadow Broker is neutral, one of your teammates works for the Shadow Broker and will kill him if you don't. 

Ah yes, Elnora. I kill her every time...I simply use different justification for it. I don't disagree some renegade options are "Must picks". I'll will deffinately give you elnora. Shooting that Krogan on Mordins LM is also another such example; there are of course others.

You still shouldn't kill Fist in cold blood.

[Bleachrude]

Saphra Deden wrote...

You've also taken a lot of risks, but that's just how Mass Effect works. When a Paragon wants to build a bridge the birdge works. When a Renegade wants to build one the bridge catches on fire.

There's no depth or intelligence or logic to any of it. It is all contrived and arbitrary.

Which applies to renegade playthroughs as well...A shepard who refuses spectre re-instatement can still do and kill everyone and not one body says or does anything....

Franklly, I find most "evil" playthroughs harder to justify than "good" playthroughs as the world doesn't really treat you that differently. Even in Planescape Torment, being a jerkass didn't stop you from winning the game and I'm actually blanking on which games which allow you to be evil will actually make the game harder for you for being evil 

[DPSSOC]

Bleachrude wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...


The hell are you talking about?  My point was that the rammifications for Shepard's actions shouldn't extend to the player.  ME2 does have consequences extending to the player for making Renegade decisions (about 1 hour less content at least) and that' not how it should go.

.

Um, say what?

How exactly do you come up with an hour? I'm thinking at most 5 minutes...

Two playthroughs, one Pure Ren (ME1 - ME2) one Pure Par (same) final save difference in completion time 1h30min.  I'm giving the game 30 min to account for bathroom breaks, acquiring snacks, and poorly timed phone calls and that's being generous considering I keep my snacks within arms reach (love my fruit fridge), and nobody calls me ever.

Bleachrude wrote...
Personally, I'm not sure how the council is seen as a positive for paragon players given that paragon players get "Ah yes, Reapers" for their trouble...

You get "Ah yes Reapers" as opposed to squat.

[Dave of Canada]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If you wanted to balance rewards and not just cameos, the Noveria executive would be an excellent device to give Renegade players a short-term reward in ME2, while Paragon players get a grander reward in ME3. If Noveria Executive gave resources/credits/a tech upgrade if you killed the Rachni, then you'd get a tactical advantage in ME2 that would be countered by the strategic advantage Rachni saviors would get in ME3. Sparing the Rachni can still be the 'better' choice in terms of War Assets that affect the ending of ME3, but that doesn't mean Renegade choosers have to go without their own (more marginal) advantage.

Could remove the marginal reward, introduce new technology in ME3 they developed while they weren't under public surveillance. Paragon always seemed to be about friends / numbers while Renegade seemed to be about tech / might.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 05 février 2012 - 06:09 .

[Hunter of Legends]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

For the first game.

As far as I can tell for what Bioware had planned that wasn't going to be the case...this is Star Wars "Jedi are never wrong or fail" video game.

Just ONCE I'd like a Star Wars game were you get to be the successful Darth Vader...oh wait.

You know Bioware didn't make KotOR II, right?  And that it had a ridiculous amount of cut content?  Dark side was an equally valid path in 2, or as equal as lightside.  The "best" path was presented to be gray.

The Light Side ending is canon for every Star Wars game; that's just the rule instituted by LucasArts.  This means that the dark side endings can be as crazy and awesome as the developer can make them.

I was speaking of ToR, I know Bioware didn't do KotOR II.

I wish Lucas would abandon that old cliche.

[incinerator950]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Paragon choices tend to forge alliances and friendships with other species,

No, not really. For every species you befriend you also alienate another.

Curing the krogan is not what the Council wants.

Restoring the rachni is not what the krogan want.

Empowering the geth is not what the quarians want.

Destroying the base is not what Cerberus wants.

Choices exist in a vaccuum though so nobody ever notices how shiftless and underhanded Paragon Shepard is.

It's called Diplomacy and compromise.

Something people on here seem to forget...

No, diplomacy means negotiating a solution. Nobody was there to negotiate when you freed the rachni queen. Nobody was there to negotiate when you rewrote the geth. Nobody was there to negotiate when you took the genophage cure data. Nobody was there to negotiate when you blew up that Collector base.

Paragon Shepard just does whatever the hell he wants. He does whatever he needs to do to feel good about himself. He never thinks twice about the possible consequences of his actions. And why should he? This is a BioWare game after all. BioWare wouldn't dare to punish the pure-Paragon Shepard for his completely irresponsible actions. 

Nobody was there to even explain to EITHER side wether the krogan should be spared.

Or that the Geth weren't all mindless reaper followers.

Or that the Rachni weren't monsters.

You see paragon shepard's actions but do you see the rest of the galaxies, and by extention other peoples actions? I don't disagree that paragon players should be punished (and we will be...sadly not enough) but some of this is just heavy handed emotion driven response.

The collocter base was made by the reapers and would surely "take humanities soul/aka indoctrinate", therefor destroying it was as viable as keeping it.

The geth rewritting I'll give you but you could ask Legion his view on it; it was a hard moral choice to make but again killing vs saving.

The Rachni had been wiped out by the krogan needlessly. The Council never asked them to do so but the Krogan continued to wipe them out. Who was there to defend them?

I don't disagree that paragon shepard does whatever the hell he wants but so does Rengade shepard...that's the whole point of the game.

Paragon Shepard doesn't see what the rest of the Galaxy thinks.  Shepard sees what Shepard thinks is right or wrong for the Galaxy.  Moral dilemas are people's own thoughts, not the 100% fact correct answer.  

Modifié par incinerator950, 05 février 2012 - 06:14 .

[Candidate 88766]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

The Krogan could be angered by you saving the Rachni, but you've also kept their cure.

The Council may be angered by you curing the Krogan, but you saved them too and so they owe you.

So at best you are keeping everybody neutral to you, but not really gaining anything.

You provide just enough reason for as many species as posisble to side with you. The Krogan's desire for a cure will outweigh their anger at Shepard saving the Rachni Queen. I don't care if the Krogan like me for it, I'm just trying to get as much help as possible.

My original point was that a full paragon playthrough, while naive, gives you potential batering chips with near enough every species, while a pure renegade playthrough is more of a placing all your eggs in one basket kind of thing with the focus on helping humanity and Cerberus.

You've also taken a lot of risks, but that's just how Mass Effect works. When a Paragon wants to build a bridge the birdge works. When a Renegade wants to build one the bridge catches on fire.

There's no depth or intelligence or logic to any of it. It is all contrived and arbitrary.

There aren't really any renegade decisions geared towards building bridges though - they're more geared towards eliminating threats. If we imagine it as, say, snakes and ladders - paragon decisions are generally abot creating ladders whereas renegade decisions are about eliminating snakes. Not a great analogy, but it sort of explains how I see it.