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A personal view of Pargon/ renegade play style and ME3


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#376
DPSSOC

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RiouHotaru wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Why should the Council being dead make things harder, or the lack of a genophage cure?

Since when is curing the genophage desirable?

Since when are the rachni a force for good? (most especially at the time we make the decision)

Why is the Migrant Fleet being divided up a bad thing?

Legion I'll grant since Cerberus is bad in ME3, but at the time the choice was made it was a perfectly logical decision.


1) Because a new Council has to fill in for those who have been there for a long time, and it's difficult to fill those shoes when you're still new to the table

2) Because it is in fact slowly driving the Krogan to extinction, and because you'll want the Krogan's help in ME3

3) Because we're presented with new information that sheds a new light on the Rachni that we didn't know before.  Not to mention ME2 points out that the Queen's assertions of mind-control were correct.

4) Because "A house divided against itself cannot stand"


With regards to number 2.  The genophage isn't driving the Krogan to extinction the Krogan are.  Their failure to adapt to the new realities of their existence is killing them, not the genophage.  You're watching a man speed head on towards a train and blaming the car.  Besides they aren't going extinct, the STG is watching very closely to make sure that doesn't happen as much as they're looking to keep them from exploding.

#377
Dean_the_Young

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andy69156915 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The existence of the Rachni in the labs is in the news in ME2. All it takes is to argue that one of those people who didn't
die told a friend who saw the news or who knew someone who knew someone
who knew, and you have all that you need. Since people on your own ship
could mention it...


Can you provide proof? I have played ME2 with the Rachni queen alive several times, and have made certain to listen to every single news report in the game, both types (the normal ones, and the ones by Emily Wong), and even go back every couple of story worlds just to listen for NEW reports. And I never, NEVER heard that news report, making me highly doubtful of this.


Besides the game in which you kill the Rachni? I'm not going youtube searching, but it is there. It's the counter-part to the 'Rachni spared' news report, and can be heard on Illium.

If you spare the Rachni, the news report mentions that ships with Rachni profiles have been spotted.

If you killed the Rachni, the news report says that the Peak 15 experiment did involve Rachni, but lies and claims that no fertile Rachni Queens were produced.

#378
G3rman

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Saphra Deden wrote...
Now it's here but the game is crap. The series has changed completely into one that I no longer can get excited about. That sucks.

I'm just waiting for a suitable time and place to bring the fire down and go out with a bang.

Who knows, maybe I'll just get my hands on the leak again and post all the juicy spoilers right in place where you'll see 'em. That'd be satisfying.


You aren't going to do **** you immature little kid.  This is a business and you don't like their product anymore, that doesn't give you the right to infringe on how others perceive the game or the company.  You aren't proving anything other than the fact you think that because you are an unhappy fan that that gives you the right to make complaints against other players, not the company.  

Your continued posting here does nothing but solidify what a troll you are.  Your presence is a drain on this community for those who actually want to play the game or discuss the game.

Grow up and realize when an adult doesn't like a product, they just don't buy it (They don't come online and berate other users of the product, trash the forums of that company, try to make others not buy the product).

#379
incinerator950

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G3rman wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
Now it's here but the game is crap. The series has changed completely into one that I no longer can get excited about. That sucks.

I'm just waiting for a suitable time and place to bring the fire down and go out with a bang.

Who knows, maybe I'll just get my hands on the leak again and post all the juicy spoilers right in place where you'll see 'em. That'd be satisfying.


You aren't going to do **** you immature little kid.  This is a business and you don't like their product anymore, that doesn't give you the right to infringe on how others perceive the game or the company.  You aren't proving anything other than the fact you think that because you are an unhappy fan that that gives you the right to make complaints against other players, not the company.  

Your continued posting here does nothing but solidify what a troll you are.  Your presence is a drain on this community for those who actually want to play the game or discuss the game.

Grow up and realize when an adult doesn't like a product, they just don't buy it (They don't come online and berate other users of the product, trash the forums of that company, try to make others not buy the product).


I agree, but then several people can just ***** about something, and miraculously Bioware takes it in.  

#380
royard

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DPSSOC wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Why should the Council being dead make things harder, or the lack of a genophage cure?

Since when is curing the genophage desirable?

Since when are the rachni a force for good? (most especially at the time we make the decision)

Why is the Migrant Fleet being divided up a bad thing?

Legion I'll grant since Cerberus is bad in ME3, but at the time the choice was made it was a perfectly logical decision.


1) Because a new Council has to fill in for those who have been there for a long time, and it's difficult to fill those shoes when you're still new to the table

2) Because it is in fact slowly driving the Krogan to extinction, and because you'll want the Krogan's help in ME3

3) Because we're presented with new information that sheds a new light on the Rachni that we didn't know before.  Not to mention ME2 points out that the Queen's assertions of mind-control were correct.

4) Because "A house divided against itself cannot stand"


With regards to number 2.  The genophage isn't driving the Krogan to extinction the Krogan are.  Their failure to adapt to the new realities of their existence is killing them, not the genophage.  You're watching a man speed head on towards a train and blaming the car.  Besides they aren't going extinct, the STG is watching very closely to make sure that doesn't happen as much as they're looking to keep them from exploding.




I mean, what's killing who isn't really relevant here.  The important part is whether Shep have something the krogans want.  If Shep destroyed the cure, he doesn't have the thing the krogans want, so they don't help him.  If Shep has the cure, then he does, and the krogan will be more inclined to help. 

Seriously, destroying the cure means that Shep doesn't want krogans on his team already.  It's Shep's decision that krogan population should remain small, and he has to bear the consequences of his actions. 

It's really Shep playing the part of Saren, only "for the good of the universe" instead of "making the krogans his slaves."  Whether it is actually good for anybody remains to bee seen. 

Modifié par royard, 05 février 2012 - 08:10 .


#381
Dean_the_Young

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G3rman wrote...

You aren't going to do **** you immature little kid.  This is a business and you don't like their product anymore, that doesn't give you the right to infringe on how others perceive the game or the company. 

Sure it does. Being a disatisfied consumer is about the only valid basis for sharing disatisfaction with a product.

You aren't proving anything other than the fact you think that because you are an unhappy fan that that gives you the right to make complaints against other players, not the company. 

You're confusing cause and correlation.

Your continued posting here does nothing but solidify what a troll you are.  Your presence is a drain on this community for those who actually want to play the game or discuss the game.

And yet, if you do believe that, you're feeding him. Which would be a rather stupid thing, since you'd be validating his views on people who do stupid things. Such as feeding the trolls.

If you believe him to be one.

Grow up and realize when an adult doesn't like a product, they just don't buy it (They don't come online and berate other users of the product, trash the forums of that company, try to make others not buy the product).

While it's clear you live a pleasant environment, but negative feedback is still legitimate so long as it's based on something of merit... which, in Saphra's case, is true. While Saphra has a strong lack of tact, he does have many valid points in regards to the weaknesses of the Mass Effect RPG structure.

#382
Arppis

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I like doing paragon decissions in most choices. But sometimes you need to be harder and take some Renegade in. I just believe that getting allies and working together is usualy the best way forwards.

It's just more logical for me to work with others than trying to hog everything to yourself like a selfish baby.

#383
G3rman

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No it isn't. If Saphra wants to complain there are better ways to do it than posting on this forum, the only thing he is proving is that he wants to convince others to stop playing because of his problems with the game. He should be e-mailing BioWare or speaking in private, not trying to garner attention like an immature kid.

His reason for being dissatisfied is a good one and he is more than welcome to not buy another BioWare product. But you are incorrect that he has the right to INFRINGE HIMSELF ON OTHERS who want to play the game, he doesn't have a right to push his agenda on them. I'm sure there was a time he made his point politely, but now he is just arguing for the sake of arguing.

#384
Rip504

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Dude...why is it so hard for you to undersntad this?

Renegades want the world to acknowledge their actions. That IS content. Some NPC poping up and tellign you you're scum - taht is content. As meaningless as it may seems, it's little touches like that that add to the overall atmosphere.

There is no reason why persons relevant to past events should congregate on the planet Shep jsut happens to be ATM...but only if you're paragon.

Heard that news report about the DA and it's victory tour? Well, how about a news reports about Shep killing the Rachni? Or SOMETHING.
Bioware didn't have a problem wiht cramming Paragon camoes everywhere - but renegade camoes? Who gives a damn? So yes..that is content. Content paragons get renegades don't.


LoL  Try reading and you will see I do understand and disagree.

I do not think Renegades understand what it means to truly be Renegade.
A Renegade shouldn't care about past slain foes. The Rachni Queen is a well kept secret. Even if you save her,and get your cameo,it's still just a rumor to the rest of the galaxy. That's after they have been spotted flying around. Wrex could have said something,but like a true Renegade he could care less,and is busy rebuilding his race. Wreav has no idea about a Rachni.

Renegades choose to kill the content. Renegades do not leave many loose ends,Paragons do. It's only good writing to touch on unfinished stories.
Bioware is not adding for Paragons,but rather finishing unfinished stories.
Renegades are not meant to seek out honor,pride,and acknowledgement. They do what they do to get the job done. Why should anyone in the entire galaxy care about dead & finished story arcs? You know the ones that no longer effect your story.

Bioware promised to have imported choices and continue stories over the next 2 games,and they have delivered on that promise. You are asking for extra pointless unneeded content.
It all boils down to you not liking the outcome of your choice,and feeling as if someone else got something you didn't. Not the case. The 2 parties handled the same content differently. Cameos for the dead? Really?
How often does main stream media bring up  pointless dead guys from 2 years ago? O never.

All I see and hear is complaints about feeling cheated. Very few of you will give an example of content that should be added. Even fewer of you have ever made a good point with the idea of content that you feel should be added.
Why? It has to make sense within the story. I agree with Bioware. Memorials for Shepards slain foes is unneeded.

You want someone to say hey you killed(insert name) ,because a Paragons story is unfinished and they get a comment. That makes little sense to me. Sorry. It like a child crying for a sucker,because some other random child got one. But this child chose a chocolate bar instead,and now the child wants a sucker also.

#385
Dean_the_Young

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DPSSOC wrote...

With regards to number 2.  The genophage isn't driving the Krogan to extinction the Krogan are.  Their failure to adapt to the new realities of their existence is killing them, not the genophage.  You're watching a man speed head on towards a train and blaming the car.  Besides they aren't going extinct, the STG is watching very closely to make sure that doesn't happen as much as they're looking to keep them from exploding.


In this case, there's more to the analogy that might be expanded.

In this case, there are two ways the car might avoid the train: either by slowing down (reducing violence, which the Council wants), or speeding up (faster breeding). If the car does either, it will avoid the train (extinction). The Krogan, speed freaks, are proven to hate driving slow.

What doesn't change is that the Council is deliberatly sabotaging the accelerator so that the Krogan can't drive fast enough to beat the train. They do nothing to develop a change in the Krogan driving habits, while actively re-breaking the Krogan car so that it remains on a terminal trajectory.

The Council dictates that the only terms of survival are that the Krogan drive slow despite their prevalent desires, without preventing the trainwreck at all or even allowing alternative solutions. The Krogan have no desire to drive slow, even though the STG allows them the opportunity to do so, but we know from Wrex that the Krogan are actively declining regardless, in many respects because they're so fatalized by the genophage that they still have no desire to do the Salarian-desired route that would allow them to be a stable, rather than declining, population.


Mordin's demographic rate would only allow for stability if the Krogan died at the same rate that they were born. If they focused on Breeding and not war, they'd survive. That's what Mordin tells us.

But as we know from Wrex, the Krogan aren't doing that (except for under Wrex). They aren't changing their culture in a way to meet Mordin's expectations. And that's why they're declining.

#386
Dean_the_Young

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Rip504 wrote...

I do not think Renegades understand what it means to truly be Renegade.

And so a logical fallacy becomes the foundation of an argument.

#387
Hunter of Legends

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Luc0s wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

No offense but some of this (or at least the vibe) reaks of renegade rewards, no cost.


Yes, I want the Renegade rewards to be EQUAL to the Paragon rewards. I just want Renegades to get an equal amount of footage, gameplay and cameos as the Paragons.

My examples above about what Renegades could have gotten (instead of nothing), are just hasty examples I came up with on the spot. I'm sure you could come up with something better. But at least I made my point clear.


Perhaps.

Some of them reak of bad fanwriting though but I agree. Better writing would be needed  :P


Fan writing? Whatever. I'm not a Renegade fan.

Besides, some of BioWare's story arcs reak of bad fanwriting too, and they are (supposed to be) proffesional writers. So yeah, go figure.


For the most part they write their stories well though.


They write their narrative well. Their stories? Nah, they suck.

But lets just agree to disagree on this one.


Agreed.

See kids that's how two sides of a debate come to a civil disagreement!

#388
Rip504

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

I do not think Renegades understand what it means to truly be Renegade.

And so a logical fallacy becomes the foundation of an argument.


I didn't create the Paragon/Renegade systems. They are playstyles. I'm only using what Bioware has said.
No they didn't say Renegades don't understand,but the have made comments on Renegade Shepards being a "badass",not caring,and doing w.e. it takes to get the job done.

#389
General User

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I honestly think you could remove the entire Paragon/Renegade system from the games and they would be the better for it.

Modifié par General User, 05 février 2012 - 08:36 .


#390
Hunter of Legends

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Rip504 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

I do not think Renegades understand what it means to truly be Renegade.

And so a logical fallacy becomes the foundation of an argument.


I didn't create the Paragon/Renegade systems. They are playstyles. I'm only using what Bioware has said.
No they didn't say Renegades don't understand,but the have made comments on Renegade Shepards being a "badass",not caring,and doing w.e. it takes to get the job done.


This is the "offical" morality

Paragon
Diplomat who is willing to take the higher road/road less traveled/difficult path in order to please others around him and sometimes not complete personal goals. Selfless and puts the wills of others ahead of his own.

Renegade
Badass who takes the short route/quick route/easy route to achieve quick resualts. Only does what he needs to do and WILL sacrifice others to complete the mission at all costs. Can be selfish and puts the will of the mission ahead of others.


No one has to fully agree(this is a game of choice after all) but that is what you get if you follow 100% morality. Basically it's wide-eyed idealist vs. ruthless jackass.

Modifié par Hunter of Legends, 05 février 2012 - 08:37 .


#391
Hunter of Legends

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General User wrote...

I honestly think you could remove the entire Paragon/Renegade system from the games and they would be the better for it.



I whole heartedly agree.


But this is Bioware. MORALITY IS PARAMOUNT KIDS!

#392
BlueMagitek

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I don't think the Paragon/Renegade system needs to be removed entirely. I like the idea that your actions should tie to your options. The problem is that *every* action ties to *every* option, and the neutral options are usually, well, less than optimal.

#393
Dean_the_Young

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G3rman wrote...

No it isn't. If Saphra wants to complain there are better ways to do it than posting on this forum, the only thing he is proving is that he wants to convince others to stop playing because of his problems with the game. He should be e-mailing BioWare or speaking in private, not trying to garner attention like an immature kid.

Making grievances public and trying to convince others to share them is one of the halmarks of adulthood, actually. That's what advocacy, lobbying, and democratic movements are about.

Individual appeals have far less weight than a group consensus. Convincing the population that something is a flaw, and should be corrected, is far more successful than private appeal. Many people, for example, are simply content with a status quo... but if agitated into looking deeper, might agree that it could be changed for the better. There are Paragons, for example, who never play Renegade and so are quite happy with the carryover content... but when they realized that in many cases 'Renegade' carryover is the same thing as 'didn't do it' carryover, or even 'start from scratch in ME2' content, they recognized it as a problem and agreed it shouldn't reoccur.


Bioware does read these forums, and while they rarely address specific points they do keep an eye on groups of consensus. An excellent example would be the reactions to Mass Effect Deception: as more people realized what aweful tripe the book was, Bioware actually made a thread and promised that editing would occur on future copies. Whereas if there had been no group consensus or public and vocal demonstration of opinion, then the issue might well have been chalked to 'isolated opinions' and nothing made of it.


Free speach and group opinion has a way of validating itself. If Saphra's opinion on the issue is actually singular and unpopular, it will burn itself out without any need for self-censoring. Saphra will be isolated and alone, and Bioware won't need to do anything else about it. No one would share the opinion. Whereas if a public position does attract a significant amount of agreement, it would prove itself an issue of note, and deserve correction.



Now, could Saphra be far more effective in his advocacy? Sure. He has a temper. But Saphra's hardly the only one who believes in this issue, and we have every right to try and convince others to share our opinion.

The alternative is to make these forums a praise-only environment, insisting that any dissent be individual and out of sight.


His reason for being dissatisfied is a good one and he is more than welcome to not buy another BioWare product. But you are incorrect that he has the right to INFRINGE HIMSELF ON OTHERS who want to play the game, he doesn't have a right to push his agenda on them.

Besides that he has every right as a customer and person in a society of free speach to share his opinions, he isn't infringing on the ability of others to play the game as they see fit. Or to hold their own opinions.

I'm sure there was a time he made his point politely, but now he is just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Or he has a longer view on it, and realizes that if his points gain traction with the undecided and quiet masses, their habbits and reflected viewpoints might make for a more demanding, and better served, customer base for future games.

Which, given Bioware's history of self-learning and evolution, is a pretty sensible bet.

#394
Dean_the_Young

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Rip504 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

I do not think Renegades understand what it means to truly be Renegade.

And so a logical fallacy becomes the foundation of an argument.


I didn't create the Paragon/Renegade systems. They are playstyles. I'm only using what Bioware has said.

No, you aren't.

No they didn't say Renegades don't understand,but the have made comments on Renegade Shepards being a "badass",not caring,and doing w.e. it takes to get the job done.

Which is a whole lot different from what you're claiming what a 'true' Renegade is, which is a bunch of personal and highly disputable opinions offered as the objective and indisputable standard.

Hence the fallacy. The No True Scotsman fallacy in particular.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 février 2012 - 08:43 .


#395
Rip504

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No Dean,Read. It is the base of a Renegade playthrough. Sorry I didn't make it up out of thin air.
Either way it doesn't change the point that Renegades are not being cheated.
Dean we both already know your are not worth the time,so I will back out of our convo,as I do not wish to have one with you.

I mean just read your completely off topic comment in your previous post.
You just spew meaningless garbage in an semi-intelligent way,but it's still garbage.

Obviously when I speak of Renegade my opinion is involved. Or does the freedom of speech bull you just spewed not apply for me. Or the poster you were posting to?
Thanks for accounting my opinion as fact,but it is just my opinion obviously.
I disagree with Renegades feeling cheated.

Modifié par Rip504, 05 février 2012 - 08:53 .


#396
Dean_the_Young

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Rip504 wrote...

No Dean,Read. It is the base of a Renegade playthrough. Sorry I didn't make it up out of thin air.

When you assign motivations that are not intrensic? Yes, you did. Wildly.


Dean we both already know your are not worth the time,so I will back out of our convo,as I do not wish to have one with you.

Besides the disagreement, you already responded... and only to get the last word.

After claiming a desire to end this.

Do you have any idea how little credibility you have when you say you're done with the argument, and then go on arguing and continuing the dispute?

Obviously when I speak of Renegade my opinion is involved. Or does the freedom of speech bull you just spewed not apply for me.

Of course it does... but you can certainly be challenged when you provide an opinion as an official standard.

I disagree with Renegades feeling cheated.

With a fallacy, no less.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 février 2012 - 08:54 .


#397
JamieCOTC

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Renegades want worthless emails and cameos too. :(

#398
Dean_the_Young

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JamieCOTC wrote...

Renegades want worthless emails and cameos too. :(

Yup.

Granted, I'd like it if everyone got more meaningful consequences. In-game consequences in the same game, and alterations to the levels due to other events.

#399
G3rman

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I think its a joke that Renegades call for realistic encounters for their choices as well as cameos for more in-game action. Your outcome to your renegade choice is that criminal not being alive, that is your reward because you killed them. You shouldn't expect them to have a sister come complain to you about it or assassins out for revenge.

The entire point you made when you killed them in ME1 or 2 was to get rid of them, cut off the head, finish them off so they wouldn't appear anymore. Your reward is just that, absolutely nothing.

#400
KotorEffect3

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Renegades get what they deserve. Yeah I said that