756 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

G3rman wrote...

I think its a joke that Renegades call for realistic encounters for their choices as well as cameos for more in-game action. Your outcome to your renegade choice is that criminal not being alive, that is your reward because you killed them. You shouldn't expect them to have a sister come complain to you about it or assassins out for revenge.

You shouldn't expect to cross paths with people you've helped again, either. It's a big galaxy, and there's no real excuse that half the ME1 cameos exist in the same two hundred meters on an Asari colony at the same time you happen to be there.

Either you should make a design decision to include character cameos, and do it consistently, or you consistently don't do cameos. Half and half is bad.

The entire point you made when you killed them in ME1 or 2 was to get rid of them, cut off the head, finish them off so they wouldn't appear anymore. Your reward is just that, absolutely nothing.

Good things can result from people being dead, and bad things occuring if they're alive. If nothing changed when people died, there'd be no point in killing: the after-effects people leave behind when killed are also reasons to kill (or not kill) someone.


Take Helena Blake, the crime lord who's argument was that she would make her criminal cartel a less malevolent one, refusing the drug and slavery trades and restricting to less harmful crimes. You could agree with that and let her go, convince her to give up a life of crime and become a charity worker, or try and arrest her (and thus kill her when she arrests).

The reasons why people would do the various choices vary, but we can predict some simple ones that could result from them. If you kill her or convince her to quit crime, it's easily foreseeable that someone else would step back into the void... someone not inclined towards less harmful crimes and reduced profits. Yes, she's no longer a threat, but you left a power void that wouldn't have fallen if you had let her be. The affects of your decision extend beyond her.

So a consequence we could have would be a report on galactic crime. If you left her in place, you get a report about a smuggling ring broken up. If you killed her or convinced her to quit, then instead of a smuggling ring you could have a slaver ring being broken up. If you killed her or convinced her to quit, one of Aria's own lietenants could be the person who rose to power in Helen'a death, just like how Helena is an Aria lieutenant if you left her be.


That's not hard to implement, nor is it unreasonable consequence for your action.

[Dean_the_Young]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Renegades get what they deserve. Yeah I said that

Irony abounds around you, undetected.

[KotorEffect3]

and your point is....

[Dean_the_Young]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

and your point is....

That you aren't aware of the things implicit in your statement.

[KotorEffect3]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

and your point is....

That you aren't aware of the things implicit in your statement.

Or I just don't care anymore. 

[MissMaster]

This thread....

Modifié par Chris Priestly, 06 février 2012 - 05:57 .

[JamieCOTC]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Renegades want worthless emails and cameos too.

Yup.

Granted, I'd like it if everyone got more meaningful consequences. In-game consequences in the same game, and alterations to the levels due to other events.

You're not missing much, but I get it. I play both, and I actively skip some content during my renegade playthrough as "my Shep wouldn't do that." Still, I get it. I played a default ME2 game once and it felt empty.  Never did that again.  Even w/ the Genesis comic it is somewhat lacking.  So all my Sheps have a ME1 import w/ varrying degrees of paragon and renegade points. While I personally would never play a pure paragon or pure renegade it's not for me to say either of those ways is wrong.  To be honest when I first heard that the default game of ME2 would be a full renegade path (for major decisions) I was surprised. I thought they would mix it up a little or at least give the player options. Clumsy as it was, KOTOR2 at least gave the player a choice in Revan’s past deeds. ME2 does lack the nuance ME1 had in the P/R system and they should have mixed it up in consequences in ME2 emails and cameos instead of following one path. Were they lazy, didn’t want to invest the resources, or just didn’t think anyone would notice? We’ll probably never know. And will it change in ME3?  Don’t know. I do know that the default ME3 game will not be identical to a renegade ME2 import. The default game will have more dialogue.

As to the system itself, BW may have finally caught on to what many of us have known for years. Paragade and Renegon FTW!

We revamped the P/R system. The new system is much better at allowing you to go back and forth as you would see fit. - Preston Watamaniuk
https://twitter.com/...545846028734464

Do renegades get the shaft?  Yes, they do, but not as badly as SS Shep.

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 05 février 2012 - 10:13 .

[Dean_the_Young]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

and your point is....

That you aren't aware of the things implicit in your statement.

Or I just don't care anymore. 

Not caring about lacking self-awareness is a terrible thing.

Go take a nap.

[KotorEffect3]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

and your point is....

That you aren't aware of the things implicit in your statement.

Or I just don't care anymore. 

Not caring about lacking self-awareness is a terrible thing.

Go take a nap.

Have anything else judgmental to say?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rip504 wrote...
LoL  Try reading and you will see I do understand and disagree.

I do not think Renegades understand what it means to truly be Renegade.

Maybe paragons don't understand what it means to be paragons?
Come to think ofit - do you understand what it means to be you?

Renegades choose to kill the content.

No.
They choose to kill an individual. That individual inhabits the wrold. It affects it. Removal of that individual affects the world too.

Renegades are not meant to seek out honor,pride,and acknowledgement. They do what they do to get the job done. Why should anyone in the entire galaxy care about dead & finished story arcs? You know the ones that no longer effect your story.

Finished? Dont' affect? Sez who?

It all boils down to you not liking the outcome of your choice,and feeling as if someone else got something you didn't. Not the case. The 2 parties handled the same content differently. Cameos for the dead? Really?
How often does main stream media bring up  pointless dead guys from 2 years ago? O never.

So I guess you really didn't read or understand anything I and some others wrote?
so much for attemptiong to reason with you....

[KotorEffect3]

Insulting people that disagree with you again LS?

[Lotion Soronarr]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Insulting people that disagree with you again LS?

Well, I was thinking of trolling them and posting gibberish,  but I realised you already filled that niche on this forum.

[KotorEffect3]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Insulting people that disagree with you again LS?

Well, I was thinking of trolling them and posting gibberish,  but I realised you already filled that niche on this forum.

You are much more experienced at it.

[Rip504]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LoL. The individual is content,and the effect of your choice on the content is the outcome. Exactly what you are asking for.

Bioware says,as action speak louder then words. Your complaints in ME2 prove this.

Read what you say. What a joke. Give an acceptable example,Hence put your money where your mouth is.
Fist does not need a follow up. No story interaction. The Rachni have been dead for a thousand years. That's what the galaxy knows. Shepard maintains that. Why bring up something that hasn't changed in 1,000 years?
Helena Blake? really leave her out altogether. Feros,Tali mentions it to both Paragons & Renegades differently. If you pursue the dialog. Gianni,if you kill her,who cares? I mean honestly tell me what you are asking for.

As you already have acknowledgement in ME2.
The lack of the character is an acknowledgement of your decision to kill them.

Edit: Do not tell me Paragons got content and you want the Renegade to have it. As you quoted me as not reading what was said,when I made this exact statement.

Modifié par Rip504, 05 février 2012 - 10:54 .

[eye basher]

royard wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Why should the Council being dead make things harder, or the lack of a genophage cure?

Since when is curing the genophage desirable?

Since when are the rachni a force for good? (most especially at the time we make the decision)

Why is the Migrant Fleet being divided up a bad thing?

Legion I'll grant since Cerberus is bad in ME3, but at the time the choice was made it was a perfectly logical decision.

1) Because a new Council has to fill in for those who have been there for a long time, and it's difficult to fill those shoes when you're still new to the table

2) Because it is in fact slowly driving the Krogan to extinction, and because you'll want the Krogan's help in ME3

3) Because we're presented with new information that sheds a new light on the Rachni that we didn't know before.  Not to mention ME2 points out that the Queen's assertions of mind-control were correct.

4) Because "A house divided against itself cannot stand"

With regards to number 2.  The genophage isn't driving the Krogan to extinction the Krogan are.  Their failure to adapt to the new realities of their existence is killing them, not the genophage.  You're watching a man speed head on towards a train and blaming the car.  Besides they aren't going extinct, the STG is watching very closely to make sure that doesn't happen as much as they're looking to keep them from exploding.

I mean, what's killing who isn't really relevant here.  The important part is whether Shep have something the krogans want.  If Shep destroyed the cure, he doesn't have the thing the krogans want, so they don't help him.  If Shep has the cure, then he does, and the krogan will be more inclined to help. 

Seriously, destroying the cure means that Shep doesn't want krogans on his team already.  It's Shep's decision that krogan population should remain small, and he has to bear the consequences of his actions. 

It's really Shep playing the part of Saren, only "for the good of the universe" instead of "making the krogans his slaves."  Whether it is actually good for anybody remains to bee seen. 

What people fail to understand is that it doesn't matter if the krogan want to help or not hell it doesn't matter what any race thinks the reapers will kill them regardless you can't hide you can't run.Fight or die makes sense now doesn't it.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Phaedon wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
Letting Balak go is naivety at it's best.

That's not what naive at all. Words have meanings. You know.

It's only naive if you think that he'll stop doing his terrroristy stuff. Unless you are trying to imply that most Paragons who saved the hostages thought that he'd reform, while he gives signs for the exact opposite.

There is absolutely no confirmation that the Rachni were indoctrinated. No matter how "obvious" you think it was, there was never any form of evidence. Making assumptions does not count as being logical.

Out of curiosity, when was the last time you played ME1, and did you just skip all of Benezia's dialogue back then, too?

Why do you persist on speaking blatant lies? As many have pointed out, you are wrong. I thought i'd just reassure you of how wrong you are.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Seriously?  Someone's really using the "Renegades killed someone, so they don't get exclusive content like Paragon choices" arguement?  Time to break some things down:
-NO ONE wants dead people coming back... no one is asking for it, no one wants it.  It's just not possible

-Bonus content is bonus content.  You don't think having a reputation as a ruthless person (based on a choice that killed someone/something) could lead to a unique encounter?  Think about it...

-Renegades got the old Council killed... sure... but there is a new Council.  So how can you even try to justify your claim of "there's no content because the Renegade killed them off?"  The new Council is alive... so where are they?

-Cameos don't have to be exculsive to people Shepard has saved.  What about those he simply aided?  What about humans who may appreciate the increase in power humanity may have gotten by taking over the Council?  Where's the actual consequence content?  "Nothing" is not content... no matter how you slice it.


The fact that such content is simply not available for Renegades while it is for Paragons only furthers the irrefutable evidence of Paragon favoritism... it's just a fact at this point.  To date, there has been no up side to making a major Renegade choice... all of it has been completely unnecessary compared to the Paragon alternative... due to the demonstrated outcomes presented thusfar.


More evidence (ME3 plot points as revealed by gaming magazines/non-leak/non-script):

-If you kept the Base, (besides Cerberus being one of the 2 villains of ME3.. no matter what you chose) the VS is also against you.  Again, no positive benefit for making the choice.

-If the old Council died, the new one won't want to help you or humanity (... even if said Council is supposed to be Human-led (if not all-human)... which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever).

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 06 février 2012 - 08:11 .

[Arppis]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Renegades want worthless emails and cameos too.

I guess they should the relative of the people you killed to avenge him/her by attacking Renegades, or hate mail, or something. *shrug*

Because hey, Renegades choose to shoot these people. How they can come back and do a cameo if you've done that?

Ah well, the revenge thing could work.

EDIT: But reading all this just makes me think this kind of constructive advice is waste of breath here as everyone keeps attacking eachothers on personal level. Very mature.

Modifié par Arppis, 06 février 2012 - 09:04 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I don't attack anyone, I just point out the facts.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rip504 wrote...

LoL. The individual is content,and the effect of your choice on the content is the outcome. Exactly what you are asking for.

There is more to content that just individuals.

Bioware says,as action speak louder then words. Your complaints in ME2 prove this.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean...

Read what you say. What a joke. Give an acceptable example,Hence put your money where your mouth is.

I have and so have other people. It's not hard to come up with aditional related content.

Edit: Do not tell me Paragons got content and you want the Renegade to have it. As you quoted me as not reading what was said,when I made this exact statement.

Yes, I want renegades to have content too. Lack of content is not content, no amtter what retarded logic you try to use.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 06 février 2012 - 11:15 .

[Last Vizard]

AlexXIV wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Tbh Renegades SHOULD BE punished.

That's a poor outlook.  Everyone should be punished, the Paradurp concept with the lack of consequences for being morally upgright is non-existant. 

I don't do purist runs because it limits your perspective on how things are.  How Paragons just go on by without a problem, and Renegades just get away with being an ass.  

I'm about to make it a sig referrence that Army of Two and Fable did a better job managing consequences then Mass Effect.   There seems to be a lack of motivation and angles for doing things.  Consequences, repercussions, you know, life lessons that karma is a *****.

I don't mind Paragades or Renegons. One of my Shep is just that. But pure Renegades are jerks per definition. In my Paragade playthrough I am a jerk to some, but not all. I don't see though how someone who is a jerk to everyone should get away with it. If you choose your path in life you also have to accept the consequences. I don't know what kind of people choose renegade path and actually expect it to work out better than paragon. That's just unrealistic. If you are or have been anything of a renegade at any point of your life then you'd know it comes back at you at some point.

Still reading through the pages however I thought I'd reply to this,  you have a point about renegades being dicks to everyone however I think we can all agree that being a full paragon should bite you in the ass sometimes because some people shouldn't be aloud to live.    3:39 - this is paragon to extreme stupidity, I'm glad Shep isn't this bad however letting the terrorist go in bring down the sky was a very stupid thing to do because balak (right name?) is an unknown quantity and could do anything.

Letting everyone live shouldn't "win" the game for Shep either, while being a dick may end up with some alien leaders laughing at shep when he comes looking for help during ME3.

[Yuoaman]

Last Vizard wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Tbh Renegades SHOULD BE punished.

That's a poor outlook.  Everyone should be punished, the Paradurp concept with the lack of consequences for being morally upgright is non-existant. 

I don't do purist runs because it limits your perspective on how things are.  How Paragons just go on by without a problem, and Renegades just get away with being an ass.  

I'm about to make it a sig referrence that Army of Two and Fable did a better job managing consequences then Mass Effect.   There seems to be a lack of motivation and angles for doing things.  Consequences, repercussions, you know, life lessons that karma is a *****.

I don't mind Paragades or Renegons. One of my Shep is just that. But pure Renegades are jerks per definition. In my Paragade playthrough I am a jerk to some, but not all. I don't see though how someone who is a jerk to everyone should get away with it. If you choose your path in life you also have to accept the consequences. I don't know what kind of people choose renegade path and actually expect it to work out better than paragon. That's just unrealistic. If you are or have been anything of a renegade at any point of your life then you'd know it comes back at you at some point.

Still reading through the pages however I thought I'd reply to this,  you have a point about renegades being dicks to everyone however I think we can all agree that being a full paragon should bite you in the ass sometimes because some people shouldn't be aloud to live.    3:39 - this is paragon to extreme stupidity, I'm glad Shep isn't this bad however letting the terrorist go in bring down the sky was a very stupid thing to do because balak (right name?) is an unknown quantity and could do anything.

Letting everyone live shouldn't "win" the game for Shep either, while being a dick may end up with some alien leaders laughing at shep when he comes looking for help during ME3.

Why is letting Balak go stupid? It's not like you said "go free because I trust you not to be a terrorist anymore", you let him go because you don't want more innocents to die, and you put him on the Alliance's Most Wanted, basically.

[Last Vizard]

Yuoaman wrote...

.

Why is letting Balak go stupid? It's not like you said "go free because I trust you not to be a terrorist anymore", you let him go because you don't want more innocents to die, and you put him on the Alliance's Most Wanted, basically.

Ok so, I'm going to assume that you mostly agree with me however right now you wana know my opinion on bringing down the sky paragon actions.

Balak seems highly trained and capable of pulling off such terrorist attacks or training others to do the same, If balak is dead then thats one less highly trained threat.

How does Balak being on some list make the galaxy any safer? did the Alliance see his ship and crew flying over to the Asteroid and reacted like "hey steve, any of these guys on the "list"?"  Sure the Alliance will have agents looking for him now that he was stoped this time however once he returns to the terminus he is safe again and free to train more like him.

Ever watch a show called "I almost got away with it"?  How many other attacks on Humanity has Balak been part or leader of? Most of the time you only know someone has killed X number of people is because he admitted to it once caught.   Balak needs to die and those 12 (?) people must make the sacrifice for the greater good however I can see Balak going all good guy on us because he likes Shep now or something like that

[Bleachrude]

Again, I think being a renegade makes more sense in a fantasy setting rather than the high tech setting of ME.

I mean, think of our world today and notice how easily being a jerk gets broadcasted across a wide spectrum of people (how's that marketing guy who picked a fight with penny arcade doing for example?).

In a scifi setting, I've always had this problem since it is much more likely that everyone would know of you and recognize you and thus want nothing to do with you. The only people willing to work with you should be people that qute frankly, would sell you out if they got a better offer.

[Yuoaman]

Last Vizard wrote...

Yuoaman wrote...

.

Why is letting Balak go stupid? It's not like you said "go free because I trust you not to be a terrorist anymore", you let him go because you don't want more innocents to die, and you put him on the Alliance's Most Wanted, basically.

Ok so, I'm going to assume that you mostly agree with me however right now you wana know my opinion on bringing down the sky paragon actions.

Balak seems highly trained and capable of pulling off such terrorist attacks or training others to do the same, If balak is dead then thats one less highly trained threat.

How does Balak being on some list make the galaxy any safer? did the Alliance see his ship and crew flying over to the Asteroid and reacted like "hey steve, any of these guys on the "list"?"  Sure the Alliance will have agents looking for him now that he was stoped this time however once he returns to the terminus he is safe again and free to train more like him.

Ever watch a show called "I almost got away with it"?  How many other attacks on Humanity has Balak been part or leader of? Most of the time you only know someone has killed X number of people is because he admitted to it once caught.   Balak needs to die and those 12 (?) people must make the sacrifice for the greater good however I can see Balak going all good guy on us because he likes Shep now or something like that

If there had been any way to arrest - and if need be, kill - Balak and save the prisoners I would have done so in a heartbeat, there was no option though so I had to go with my gut.