756 réponses à ce sujet

[Rip504]

Wow. People who claim Paragon is the best play style,has the best benefits,and is the right way to play. That's nothing more then a baseless opinion.

The system is set in place so you can decide how you would of dealt with the situation. No it's not perfect.
I play as a Paragon,and will let the Geth burn & die if given the chance. No I will not just sit there and pick blue. No I will make my own choices and see how they play out. You can't always predict the future.

Blues saves lives,except for the 8 human ships,300,000 Batarians, Balak or hostages.
Humanity knows very little about the Rachni,so yea I guess it makes sense to kill what we don't understand & fear. Not my opinion,but I understand.

I do not feel either side has been cheated or favored. Just 2 different playstyles with 2 different paths and outcomes. Claiming that someone got something you didn't, will never be a compelling argument.

[incinerator950]

Rip504 wrote...

Wow. People who claim Paragon is the best play style,has the best benefits,and is the right way to play. That's nothing more then a baseless opinion.

The system is set in place so you can decide how you would of dealt with the situation. No it's not perfect.
I play as a Paragon,and will let the Geth burn & die if given the chance. No I will not just sit there and pick blue. No I will make my own choices and see how they play out. You can't always predict the future.

Blues saves lives,except for the 8 human ships,300,000 Batarians, Balak or hostages.
Humanity knows very little about the Rachni,so yea I guess it makes sense to kill what we don't understand & fear. Not my opinion,but I understand.

I do not feel either side has been cheated or favored. Just 2 different playstyles with 2 different paths and outcomes. Claiming that someone got something you didn't, will never be a compelling argument.

I'd like to agree with this, but unfortunately Saphra needs to shut the hell up with the damn metagaming spoilers. 

[InvincibleHero]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Here we go. This is the whole "you deserve it" thing.

I never said I expected something positive, but I expected something. It could be positive or it could be negative. The point is: I want it to carry over to ME2. That's the entire point of the import system in the first place.

Somebody being dead can have as big an effect as them being alive.

I agree it seems like a missed opportunity that the merc groups didn't unite to kill Shepard instead of archangel. Lure Shepard into an ambush and wham. I mean there are hundreds of dead mercs by Shepard and co throughout the games. Hundreds of families that may have people that may hate Shepard and try to knife him in the back on the citadel. An assassination attempt by a poorly armed family member would be a moral dillema. Do you kill them or show mercy?

[Rip504]

Why seek out revenge on someone who has been dead for 2 years?
During the events of ME2,the galaxy only hears a rumor that Shepard may be alive.
In a storied plot,alot of what yall claim does not make sense.

-You have a human council,but you didn't get to see the full council. Your not happy.
-Feros is mentioned both ways,twice in ME2. Your not happy.
-Kill Gianni& the Salarian,why should anyone from Noveria or anywhere care about what effect a dead Shepard had on this event? Your not happy. (Gianni's family may mourn,but seek revenge? Not everyone is a cold blooded killer. Sorry.)
-You killed a Rachni Queen. A queen of a species that has been extinct for over a thousand years. Nothing has changed within a thousand years,why bring it up in ME2? During ME2 your Shep knows the Rachni are dead & gone. No longer a threat. The point of killing it. Your not happy.
-Mercs fight the entire citadel law,Why attack only Shepard? Personal Vendetta? Well when Shepard was killed by the Collectors,doesn't that solve alot of personal vendetta's? Your not happy. Garrus was on Omega,different situation. In ME1 Shepard was mostly in Citadel space.
-Fist. Who cares? Your not happy. Why should ppl care if you killed Fist? He was a SB agent who betrayed SB for Saren. SB & Saren are both dead. You are not happy.
-Kill Wrex,& you receive Wreav. You are not happy.


If you are so unhappy and feel as if Renegades get the shaft,why do you play as a Renegade? (An honest question.)

Example. You killed the Rachni Queen for the safety of the galaxy. Why do you need a pat on the back?
Paragons save the Queen. No paragons do not need a pat on the back,but it is nice to know what she is doing. Now that she is still alive and free. It makes sense to hint about a living Rachni queen. Not a dead one.

E-mail from Rip504@galacticnet.com
To:Renegade Shepard:
Hey Shepard,thanks for killing the Rachni.
Your still not happy.

Obviously I missed something,and this is just my opinion,so who cares!
I do not see it in good vs bad. I play mostly Paragon yes,but I use 80-90% of renegade interrupts.
I do the right thing(IMO),while sacrificing some life. I destroyed the Geth,but saved the cure. I have pushed mercs out of windows,burned sentient creatures alive,and made an alien drink his own poison. Destroyed the base,helped Tali out of my own selfishness. Never chose "blue" because it's the good,right,or most benefited choice. When I choose "blue",it's because in the current situation I felt it was the right choice.(For me) Same when I choose "red".
For me it is about choice not outcome and best benefit.

[Dave of Canada]

You've just started the Mass Effect franchise, you greatly enjoy both Paragon and Renegade and see both as viable routes within the context of the first game. You'd have people questioning Paragon Shepard, you'd have people questioning Renegade Shepard. There was no "right way", you'd even get to see things which Paragon Shepard didn't see if you went Renegade (The Alliance's darker side) and you'd recieve sympathy from Udina for what you'd been forced to do.

You import your paragon, you encounter all sorts of people mentioning your experiences from the first game and you can smile and say "Hey, that's neat!" and appreciate the nudges you recieve. Upon playing the Renegade import, you begin to notice a substancial loss of people mentioning things you've done. That's weird.

Then you decide to play Mass Effect 2's default state and realize it's almost exactly the same as the Renegade import. What the hell? Could it be bugged? No, according to the game files, they didn't bother. You think to yourself "okay, least there's the big finale where they've promised they can deviate the game greatly because it's the end" whilst mentioning constantly that Renegade should've recieved more content, something to make it different from the default.

You read the Mass Effect 3 leak script and then continue reading how Paragon decisions benefit the player, people suddenly find themselves bowing to your might and becoming indoctrinated by your charm, providing happier solutions to the conflicts around the galaxy and offering the player more war assets from their previous decisions.

The Renegade on the other hand recieves less of everything, called a moron repeatedly (a behavior which the writers took in ME2, insulting the player and telling them they made the wrong decisions) and has multiple decisions reworked so they end up exactly the same as the paragon alternative, the difference being that you don't gain war assets... you lose them.

Insulted, you continue reading through the script and realize something horrifying: Most people who've played ME1 and are Renegade will end up punished for something which the ME2 default doesn't, so actually playing ME1 actually ends up backfiring on the Renegade.

"How the hell is that acceptable in any way, shape or form?" you think to yourself.

You then read the script referring to the Renegade playthrough from ME1 and ME2 as "failure" and storm out of the room.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 06 février 2012 - 11:30 .

[Hunter of Legends]

Dave of Canada wrote...


You then read the script referring to the Renegade playthrough from ME1 and ME2 as "failure" and storm out of the room.

I have a Renegade playthrough that will be just fine.

Full renegades however will suffer...which is regretable but accpetable if full paragons suffered too. Perhaps you could argue paragons "feel" more for their characters and therefor ME3 is gonna hurt paragons just as much if not more...

[Dave of Canada]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Full renegades however will suffer...which is regretable but accpetable if full paragons suffered too. Perhaps you could argue paragons "feel" more for their characters and therefor ME3 is gonna hurt paragons just as much if not more...

Depending how they handle the "reputation" system which they've hinted at, renegons and paragades will suffer for being in the "middle" and it doesn't help that Hudson said it's better to stick with your "principles" (which, from the script, is true).

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Seriously? Someone's really using the "Renegades killed someone, so they don't get exclusive content like Paragon choices" arguement? Time to break some things down:
-NO ONE wants dead people coming back... no one is asking for it, no one wants it. It's just not possible

-Bonus content is bonus content. You don't think having a reputation as a ruthless person (based on a choice that killed someone/something) could lead to a unique encounter? Think about it...

-Renegades got the old Council killed... sure... but there is a new Council. So how can you even try to justify your claim of "there's no content because the Renegade killed them off?" The new Council is alive... so where are they?

-Cameos don't have to be exculsive to people Shepard has saved. What about those he simply aided? What about humans who may appreciate the increase in power humanity may have gotten by taking over the Council? Where's the actual consequence content? "Nothing" is not content... no matter how you slice it.


The fact that such content is simply not available for Renegades while it is for Paragons only furthers the irrefutable evidence of Paragon favoritism... it's just a fact at this point. To date, there has been no up side to making a major Renegade choice... all of it has been completely unnecessary compared to the Paragon alternative... due to the demonstrated outcomes presented thusfar.


More evidence (ME3 plot points as revealed by gaming magazines/non-leak/non-script):

-If you kept the Base, (besides Cerberus being one of the 2 villains of ME3.. no matter what you chose) the VS is also against you. Again, no positive benefit for making the choice.

-If the old Council died, the new one won't want to help you or humanity (... even if said Council is supposed to be Human-led (if not all-human)... which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever).

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 06 février 2012 - 11:53 .

[Hunter of Legends]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Full renegades however will suffer...which is regretable but accpetable if full paragons suffered too. Perhaps you could argue paragons "feel" more for their characters and therefor ME3 is gonna hurt paragons just as much if not more...

Depending how they handle the "reputation" system which they've hinted at, renegons and paragades will suffer for being in the "middle" and it doesn't help that Hudson said it's better to stick with your "principles" (which, from the script, is true).

True, but if we're talking about "Paragade and Renegon" in choice of course they were always going to be drawbacks to such a character.

My Renegon for instance stuck to his prinicples in the decisions which was what Casey was speaking off. He just happens to be a jerk and get the job done.

Now my Paragade however will fall under the "wishy washy" category.

[DPSSOC]

Ok I think people misunderstand the Renegade complaint.

This, is what I find wrong with the system as it stands, why I, as a Renegade player, feel I'm being punished, not my Shepard, me.

[WizenSlinky0]

Dave of Canada wrote...

You've just started the Mass Effect franchise, you greatly enjoy both Paragon and Renegade and see both as viable routes within the context of the first game. You'd have people questioning Paragon Shepard, you'd have people questioning Renegade Shepard. There was no "right way", you'd even get to see things which Paragon Shepard didn't see if you went Renegade (The Alliance's darker side) and you'd recieve sympathy from Udina for what you'd been forced to do.

You import your paragon, you encounter all sorts of people mentioning your experiences from the first game and you can smile and say "Hey, that's neat!" and appreciate the nudges you recieve. Upon playing the Renegade import, you begin to notice a substancial loss of people mentioning things you've done. That's weird.

Then you decide to play Mass Effect 2's default state and realize it's almost exactly the same as the Renegade import. What the hell? Could it be bugged? No, according to the game files, they didn't bother. You think to yourself "okay, least there's the big finale where they've promised they can deviate the game greatly because it's the end" whilst mentioning constantly that Renegade should've recieved more content, something to make it different from the default.

You read the Mass Effect 3 leak script and then continue reading how Paragon decisions benefit the player, people suddenly find themselves bowing to your might and becoming indoctrinated by your charm, providing happier solutions to the conflicts around the galaxy and offering the player more war assets from their previous decisions.

The Renegade on the other hand recieves less of everything, called a moron repeatedly (a behavior which the writers took in ME2, insulting the player and telling them they made the wrong decisions) and has multiple decisions reworked so they end up exactly the same as the paragon alternative, the difference being that you don't gain war assets... you lose them.

Insulted, you continue reading through the script and realize something horrifying: Most people who've played ME1 and are Renegade will end up punished for something which the ME2 default doesn't, so actually playing ME1 actually ends up backfiring on the Renegade.

"How the hell is that acceptable in any way, shape or form?" you think to yourself.

You then read the script referring to the Renegade playthrough from ME1 and ME2 as "failure" and storm out of the room.

First, I'll start off by saying that in many ways you're probably right. Renegades don't really get much response from the game one way or another. If they do, it tends to go fairly badly.

However, and let me stress this, there are several reasons why you really probably shouldn't make a huge deal out of this.

1.) It's an acceptable risk-

In many ways the Renegade is performing in the way they feel provides the best benefit or practicality. Vindicated or no the renegade personality is not looking for friends or allies, but in getting the job done regardless of the cost. I've said it before but people are emotional creatures. This has been taken into account in the game. People are not going to "thank" you for what you consider the hard choices. They are going to *despise* you. Emotions will come out ahead of logic, 9 times out of 10.

There are many many people who will use those emotions and say screw earth and your alliance, even if it means extinction, it is better than working with you for even 10 seconds.

2.) Developer Bias-

Should it happen? In theory, not really. But if bioware decides that the paragon route should without a doubt prove the "correct" path it is not really our place to say they are wrong. Most of the decisions could go either way. I could legitmately come up with scenarios where the renegade path comes out well, and scenarios where the paragon one came out on top. But this is irrelevent to the story they craft. Is it wrong they kind of gave the idea both paths would have their own benefits? Yeah, mostly.

But the argument that the paragon path "doesn't make sense" just doesn't hold up since it is a crafted world where the variables are decided on.

3.) Ill-Defined Philosophy-

Although most renegades play their characters as a "make the hard choices" sorts, the philosophy itself is ill-defined within the context of the game. In many ways KOTOR and Jade Empire did way better with the whole explanation of exactly what it meant. Yeah we can form correlations and make assumptions. 

But I don't believe Bioware ever gave a clear opinion in game of what the renegade belief system (lore-wise) was going to be. Really, just going by the *word* renegade suggests you'll end up with no friends at the end.

Summary-

Renegades really should get more response to their actions at the very least, but the context of the philosophy is so vague that you can legitimately form reasons for why it goes south.

[Carnage752]

Yes yes guys lets say Bioware is biased against your alignment in ME3 even though the games not out.

Now you might say "Herp derp well leaks say: Insert inflammatory revelation here."

The leak was in November. Half a year away from release. Before they called the delay to DEVELOP THE GAME FURTHER.

Who knows, the Rachni Queen can go all Reaperific on us, the Illusive Man might have a change of heart and use the Collector Base for good, saving ships instead of wasting them on the council might mean Humans kick more ass, sparing Council leads to them delaying reinforcements in political bull****, JUST WAIT FOR THE MOTHER****ING GAME!!!!

NERDRAGE RANT ABOUT NERDRAGE RANTS!!! INCEPTION!!

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Two things we already know (non-leak):

Cerberus = enemy in ME3 regardless of what your Colllector Base decision was. Collector Base decision puts VS at ends with you.  Some endings confirmed to be harder to get if you chose the Renegade "Keep the Base" option.

If Council died, the new Council (human-led... if not all-human) will be reluctant to help save humanity/the Earth (which makes no sense).


Those are the facts... The Paragon Favoritism still goes strong... even into ME3.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 07 février 2012 - 04:33 .

[WizenSlinky0]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Two things we already know (non-leak):

Cerberus = enemy in ME3 regardless of what your Colllector Base decision was. Collector Base decision puts VS at ends with you.  Some endings confirmed to be harder to get if you chose the Renegade "Keep the Base" option.

If Council died, the new Council (human-led... if not all-human) will be reluctant to help save humanity/the Earth (which makes no sense).


Those are the facts... The Paragon Favoritism still goes strong... even into ME3.

I don't believe Cerberus is ever an adaquate choice to use as ammo against paragons. People could debate all day about what or what isn't the most likely beliefs and correct choices for TIM to make. But when it comes down to it, he is a character Bioware created. No one can hope to know better than they do what TIM would do.

Human-led council might be reluctant to help Shepard personally. Afterall, he's just as likely to sacrifice them if it came down to it, just like he did to the first council. It's a matter of Logical Vs. Emotional response. It doesn't mean they aren't trying to do *something* about the reapers...their efforts just are futile. Because Shepard is the secret of the universe.

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 07 février 2012 - 04:37 .

[Hunter of Legends]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Two things we already know (non-leak):

Cerberus = enemy in ME3 regardless of what your Colllector Base decision was. Collector Base decision puts VS at ends with you.  Some endings confirmed to be harder to get if you chose the Renegade "Keep the Base" option.

If Council died, the new Council (human-led... if not all-human) will be reluctant to help save humanity/the Earth (which makes no sense).


Those are the facts... The Paragon Favoritism still goes strong... even into ME3.

All of that makes perfect sense to me.

Maybe you just don't understand how trust and grudges work.

[incinerator950]

**** Happens.

[DPSSOC]

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Two things we already know (non-leak):

Cerberus = enemy in ME3 regardless of what your Colllector Base decision was. Collector Base decision puts VS at ends with you.  Some endings confirmed to be harder to get if you chose the Renegade "Keep the Base" option.

If Council died, the new Council (human-led... if not all-human) will be reluctant to help save humanity/the Earth (which makes no sense).


Those are the facts... The Paragon Favoritism still goes strong... even into ME3.

All of that makes perfect sense to me.

Maybe you just don't understand how trust and grudges work.

Ok the human dominated Council refusing to take action to save their own species makes sense to you?

[Heimdall]

DPSSOC wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Two things we already know (non-leak):

Cerberus = enemy in ME3 regardless of what your Colllector Base decision was. Collector Base decision puts VS at ends with you.  Some endings confirmed to be harder to get if you chose the Renegade "Keep the Base" option.

If Council died, the new Council (human-led... if not all-human) will be reluctant to help save humanity/the Earth (which makes no sense).


Those are the facts... The Paragon Favoritism still goes strong... even into ME3.

All of that makes perfect sense to me.

Maybe you just don't understand how trust and grudges work.

Ok the human dominated Council refusing to take action to save their own species makes sense to you?

A human council not trusting Shepard who has proven willing to kill the council before makes perfect sense.

[ShadowAussie]

you do know their is an conclusion when earth can be destroyed by the reapers. renegade spoilers** hehe

[Labrev]

On the topic of bonus content... (note: not reading posts here).

I get the idea where people feel like they've "missed out" predominantly on renegade things. I was kinda peeved at what they withheld from new players in ME2 after I used the import feature. I distinctly felt like that was their way of making it more special for ME1 players. Which is fair, they should get something special for importing, even if I didn't like it. Of course, you pretty much miss all these things anyway if you go the renegade route on everything too.

Here's the thing, I think they saw it as an issue of cause-and-effect more than a "rewards" system. When you killed the rachni queen, you know what you're getting. No more rachni. OTOH, if you let it flee, it's simply nice to know which direction that choice is going to go. Renegades basically already know. Paragons do not. So the cameo of the rachni messenger was a nice way to do it. Same with Helena Blake. You give her a second-chance, you want to see if she's put it to good use or not.

But, the principle is the same. When you give kids presents, you make it as fair as possible. Give them the same things, equal amounts, otherwise they fight. That's what BW didn't realize.

If they had to withhold content from new players to give a nicer/unique experience to import players, fine. But there should have been something for both sides so neither one feels like their import went to waste. Meanwhile, they could keep the standard game with minimal content for new players.

And to that end, they didn't have to canonize all things renegade. They could have kept the rachni alive, and relegated the consequence to news report only. Not like a new player would care all that much about a decision he didn't make.

I still think it's overblown. I didn't feel like my Renegade import into ME2 was less enjoyable because of the lack of import content, only things that changed from the standard game were Wrex and Conrad. But, not everyone is me (too bad, we could really use more).

In the end, it's hindsight, 20/20 vision. But, that's what fans are for. Point out what a game could have done better, future developers hopefully take note.

[DPSSOC]

Lord Aesir wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Two things we already know (non-leak):

Cerberus = enemy in ME3 regardless of what your Colllector Base decision was. Collector Base decision puts VS at ends with you.  Some endings confirmed to be harder to get if you chose the Renegade "Keep the Base" option.

If Council died, the new Council (human-led... if not all-human) will be reluctant to help save humanity/the Earth (which makes no sense).


Those are the facts... The Paragon Favoritism still goes strong... even into ME3.

All of that makes perfect sense to me.

Maybe you just don't understand how trust and grudges work.

Ok the human dominated Council refusing to take action to save their own species makes sense to you?

A human council not trusting Shepard who has proven willing to kill the council before makes perfect sense.

Which would justify hesitant or meager assistance (don't want to trust Shepard with the bulk of their forces), but certainly not, "Nah we don't wanna help."

[Black_Vanguard]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Seriously? Someone's really using the "Renegades killed someone, so they don't get exclusive content like Paragon choices" arguement? Time to break some things down:
-NO ONE wants dead people coming back... no one is asking for it, no one wants it. It's just not possible

-Bonus content is bonus content. You don't think having a reputation as a ruthless person (based on a choice that killed someone/something) could lead to a unique encounter? Think about it...

-Renegades got the old Council killed... sure... but there is a new Council. So how can you even try to justify your claim of "there's no content because the Renegade killed them off?" The new Council is alive... so where are they?

-Cameos don't have to be exculsive to people Shepard has saved. What about those he simply aided? What about humans who may appreciate the increase in power humanity may have gotten by taking over the Council? Where's the actual consequence content? "Nothing" is not content... no matter how you slice it.


The fact that such content is simply not available for Renegades while it is for Paragons only furthers the irrefutable evidence of Paragon favoritism... it's just a fact at this point. To date, there has been no up side to making a major Renegade choice... all of it has been completely unnecessary compared to the Paragon alternative... due to the demonstrated outcomes presented thusfar.


More evidence (ME3 plot points as revealed by gaming magazines/non-leak/non-script):

-If you kept the Base, (besides Cerberus being one of the 2 villains of ME3.. no matter what you chose) the VS is also against you. Again, no positive benefit for making the choice.

-If the old Council died, the new one won't want to help you or humanity (... even if said Council is supposed to be Human-led (if not all-human)... which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever).

Not to thread hijack or anything, but what does VS stand for?

[AgitatedLemon]

Virmire Survivor -- Kaidan or Ashley.

[Heimdall]

DPSSOC wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Two things we already know (non-leak):

Cerberus = enemy in ME3 regardless of what your Colllector Base decision was. Collector Base decision puts VS at ends with you.  Some endings confirmed to be harder to get if you chose the Renegade "Keep the Base" option.

If Council died, the new Council (human-led... if not all-human) will be reluctant to help save humanity/the Earth (which makes no sense).


Those are the facts... The Paragon Favoritism still goes strong... even into ME3.

All of that makes perfect sense to me.

Maybe you just don't understand how trust and grudges work.

Ok the human dominated Council refusing to take action to save their own species makes sense to you?

A human council not trusting Shepard who has proven willing to kill the council before makes perfect sense.

Which would justify hesitant or meager assistance (don't want to trust Shepard with the bulk of their forces), but certainly not, "Nah we don't wanna help."

I can't speak to the details as I havn't read the leaks but I doubt it's that simple

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Dave is right, but idiots cannot understand his true comment.

Default ME1 is more renegade and somewhat a less successful. Default ME2 is also going to be also dominated with major renegade decisions (might have few paragon though), so it will be more difficult and less beneficial for someone who makes a ME3 start (without importing) or is RENEGADE personally.
In my last playthrough, Paragon bar was almost equal to Renegade. Despite I made my major decisions Renegade (but rewriting the Geth). So I should expect a high casualtiy run in ME3 it seems.

Modifié par Jedi Sentinel Arian, 07 février 2012 - 05:47 .