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[AgitatedLemon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

No. My point is the quarians (as a whole) were holding the metaphorical gun to the geth's heads (as a whole)

Them being driven from their homeworld was nothing compared to what they should have received.

Wow.

So you'd have just exterminated them entirely, huh? Damn.

Coming from the person who believes Cerberus is good in execution and that humanity would benefit from becoming a Reaper.

[GodWood]

AgitatedLemon wrote...
No. My point is the quarians (as a whole) were holding the metaphorical gun to the geth's heads (as a whole)

Them being driven from their homeworld was nothing compared to what they should have received.

And the problem here is you're blaming the actions of a few quarians on the entire race.

Shall I point to your own post from this thread.

AgitatedLemon wrote...
Tell me, do you openly hold contempt for German people, based on what they did back in WW2?

Or Middle Eastern people, because of what Al Qaeda and the Taliban do?

[AgitatedLemon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Coming from the person who believes Cerberus is good in execution and that humanity would benefit from becoming a Reaper.

This seems more like an ad-hominem than actual defense of your beliefs.

Not surprising though considering there is no defense for what you've advocated.

How it got so one-sided in your head is a mystery to me. Even Bioware doesn't push it this far.

How can you damn the quarians so severely for their actions but give the geth a total pass?

1. I never said I'd exterminate them. Those words you put in my mouth taste great though. I might do it for the giggles though.

2. I'm not defending anything, partly because of #1. I'm pointing out the irony of you accusing me of being cold, despite your rabid Cerberus fanaticism and the belief that humanity should support the Reapers.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 08 février 2012 - 08:10 .

[incinerator950]

Saphra Deden wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...


Never stated the Geth were 100% in the Green.  However, in a war for Survival, the Quarians shot first, and lost.  Can't really feel bad for them, but getting them to stop for the invasion would be good. 

You realize the quarians were fighting for their survival too, right?

Though you also realize the geth are unfeeling machines and the quarians very much aren't, right?

So who do you think actually suffered in the Morning War, who do you think continues to suffer for it? It isn't the geth. They don't suffer. They can't suffer.

How many lives were lost?

I think anyone who can so easily toss aside the quarians because "they shot first" really has no comprehension of just what the quarian genocide was.

I'm not sure how to break it down so that you'd understand.

Go for a walk or a drive. Just look at the city around you. Drive to another city and do the same thing. Then watch a documentary about the geth. Then imagine that every person you've seen that day, every person you've seen the day before that, every person you've ever seen in your life, is dead. Every city on the planet is a ruin.

Considering what the geth were capable of how can you fault the quarians for hitting first? The geth were dangerous.

So were the Quarians if they made an attempt to turn the Geth into a Droid Army. The Quarians suffer, but they brought it on themselves.  Its a war, people die, civilians, families. 

I understand what you're getting at Saphra, your concept of Sapient beings in a futuristic Sci-fi is skewed a little.  I can tolerate the Geth existance over the next person next to me.  My fatalistic viewpoints on life make it awkward to hold this conversation without saying "Life dictates its will, if they die, it happens." 

By the way, I actually served, I'm very versed to casualties and people dying.  Try harder.

[AgitatedLemon]

GodWood wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...
No. My point is the quarians (as a whole) were holding the metaphorical gun to the geth's heads (as a whole)

Them being driven from their homeworld was nothing compared to what they should have received.

And the problem here is you're blaming the actions of a few quarians on the entire race.

Shall I point to your own post from this thread.

AgitatedLemon wrote...
Tell me, do you openly hold contempt for German people, based on what they did back in WW2?

Or Middle Eastern people, because of what Al Qaeda and the Taliban do?

The Germans are probably a poor example, since that was their national military at the time commiting the atrocities. 

Al Qaeda and the Taliban are independent groups not affiliated with any central government body.

The quarians (as a people) wanted to eradicate the geth (as a people). The only quarians we know that don't completely hate the geth still  were not alive at the time of the War, and even then, the only quarian who doesn't hate them is Koris.

[SirEtchwart]

Saphra Deden wrote...

SirEtchwart wrote...

I disagree, the Geth's first act as a sentient race was to ask whether or not they were alive. The answer the Quarians provided for them was genocide. Of course they're going to be violent and out of hand. All they've ever known is having to fight for their survival.

They've had plenty of time to get over it. They've had plenty of examples of organics trying to live in peace with them.

Spare me the sob story.

Who's tried to live in peace? Legion even has the data to prove that whenever the Quarians have had a shot of winning a battle, they've attacked 100% of the time.


I'm not completely on the Geth's side here. Every decision is made via consensus, which makes them far too unpredictable to ever truly fit in with the rest of the galactic community, but you have to understand that the Geth haven't ever had a chance to try.


And way to crop out the rest of my post where I halfway agreed with you. The Quarians aren't space Hitler. They panicked and made a bad decision; it's hardly like humanity wouldn't do the same. The ideal ending to this for me would be for the Geth and Quarians to co-exist on the homeworld together (or at least the Quarians, with the Geth no longer fighting them for it).

[AgitatedLemon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

1. I never said I'd exterminate them. Those words you put in my mouth taste great though. I might do it for the giggles though.

Oh really, so what did you mean?

Explain it to the rest of us.

AgitatedLemon wrote...

2. I'm not defending anything, partly because of #1.

You are too. You are defending the geth.

1. I'd reduce them to severe numbers, if they slowly go extinct, let it be.

2. No, I'm not. I've not once said that the geth were right. I believe that neither the quarians nor the geth took the best plan of action. Neither is right, but both are wrong.

[GodWood]

AgitatedLemon wrote...
The quarians (as a people) wanted to eradicate the geth (as a people).

The war started because some quarians wanted to eradicate the geth (and that was because the geth's existance was illegal and would've made them enemies of the Council), not all quarians had a say in this.

Your sentence only becomes applicable to the later stages of the war and that's because both were fighting for survival, what condemns the geth however is that when their survival was secured they continued to kill anyway.

the only quarian who doesn't hate them is Koris.

Stop making blanket assumptions on an entire species.

Koris is the only quarian we've seen who holds such views. If he is capable of having these views it's likely others do to.

Modifié par GodWood, 08 février 2012 - 08:18 .

[SirEtchwart]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

The Germans are probably a poor example, since that was their national military at the time commiting the atrocities. 

Al Qaeda and the Taliban are independent groups not affiliated with any central government body.

The quarians (as a people) wanted to eradicate the geth (as a people). The only quarians we know that don't completely hate the geth still  were not alive at the time of the War, and even then, the only quarian who doesn't hate them is Koris.

Come on, don't be absurd. There's no way of knowing this, and it likely isn't true.

There was even an Admiral who wanted to try for peace. I'd say that, if the Geth could make a good show of NOT being enigmatic space genocide bots, the Quarians would be okay with trying to live peacefully with them.

[royard]

Saphra Deden wrote...

royard wrote...

The vengeful man I referred to is David, they guy that's being used to control the geth.

Vengeful? I wouldn't say he was ever vengeful. He was frightened, panicking, and in pain. As long as he's comfortable it shouldn't be a problem. In the end he may not even need to be kept conscious.


 

royard wrote...

You seem to have forgotten that DA is also a ship, which has massive firepower.  You gain the firepower of DA. 

No, you don't gain anything. The DA is fleeing and it is in no shape to fight. It is is "dead in the water" so to speak, or nearly so. Saving the DA in no way implies you will gain it in the fight and indeed you don't.

It's not "comfort" that he was seeking.  There were "too many voices" in his head, and that caused him pain.  You can argue that this is easily solvable if you want, but I find it hard to believe that a translator can translate without hearing what the others are saying. 

...

Also, if you save DA, you get this line from Hackett in Arrival: "It took two fleets and the Destiny Ascension to take down Sovereign, and he was just one Reaper."  Which means DA participated in the Sovvy fight. 

[AgitatedLemon]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

The Germans are probably a poor example, since that was their national military at the time commiting the atrocities. 

Al Qaeda and the Taliban are independent groups not affiliated with any central government body.

The quarians (as a people) wanted to eradicate the geth (as a people). The only quarians we know that don't completely hate the geth still  were not alive at the time of the War, and even then, the only quarian who doesn't hate them is Koris.

Come on, don't be absurd. There's no way of knowing this, and it likely isn't true.

I can make an inference (Because everyone is doing that nowadays, trying to force it onto others that it's fact, even though they have no real evidence), based on *literally* the only non anti-geth quarian we know being Koris. All of the quarians we've met so far are either anti-geth (Namely, Rael, Tali, Gerrel) or quasi-neutral (Xen).

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 08 février 2012 - 08:18 .

[incinerator950]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

The Germans are probably a poor example, since that was their national military at the time commiting the atrocities. 

Al Qaeda and the Taliban are independent groups not affiliated with any central government body.

The quarians (as a people) wanted to eradicate the geth (as a people). The only quarians we know that don't completely hate the geth still  were not alive at the time of the War, and even then, the only quarian who doesn't hate them is Koris.

Come on, don't be absurd. There's no way of knowing this, and it likely isn't true.

I can make an inference (Because everyone is doing that nowadays, trying to force it onto others that it's fact, even though they have no real evidence), based on *literally* the only non anti-geth quarian we know being Koris. All of the quarians we've met so far are either anti-geth (Namely, Rael, Tali, Gerrel) or quasi-neutral (Xen).

Kal Reeger seems pretty neutral on the subject. 

[AgitatedLemon]

incinerator950 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

The Germans are probably a poor example, since that was their national military at the time commiting the atrocities. 

Al Qaeda and the Taliban are independent groups not affiliated with any central government body.

The quarians (as a people) wanted to eradicate the geth (as a people). The only quarians we know that don't completely hate the geth still  were not alive at the time of the War, and even then, the only quarian who doesn't hate them is Koris.

Come on, don't be absurd. There's no way of knowing this, and it likely isn't true.

I can make an inference (Because everyone is doing that nowadays, trying to force it onto others that it's fact, even though they have no real evidence), based on *literally* the only non anti-geth quarian we know being Koris. All of the quarians we've met so far are either anti-geth (Namely, Rael, Tali, Gerrel) or quasi-neutral (Xen).

Kal Reeger seems pretty neutral on the subject. 

I didn't name everyone, just a couple of examples.

But yeah, Reegar acts neutral, he doesn't provide an opinion either way, IIRC.

[GodWood]

AgitatedLemon wrote...
I can make an inference (Because everyone is doing that nowadays, trying to force it onto others that it's fact, even though they have no real evidence),

Like what? Do share. 

based on *literally* the only non anti-geth quarian we know being Koris. All of the quarians we've met so far are either anti-geth (Namely, Rael, Tali, Gerrel) or quasi-neutral (Xen).

I point you to my post a few posts above

Modifié par GodWood, 08 février 2012 - 08:23 .

[incinerator950]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

The Germans are probably a poor example, since that was their national military at the time commiting the atrocities. 

Al Qaeda and the Taliban are independent groups not affiliated with any central government body.

The quarians (as a people) wanted to eradicate the geth (as a people). The only quarians we know that don't completely hate the geth still  were not alive at the time of the War, and even then, the only quarian who doesn't hate them is Koris.

Come on, don't be absurd. There's no way of knowing this, and it likely isn't true.

I can make an inference (Because everyone is doing that nowadays, trying to force it onto others that it's fact, even though they have no real evidence), based on *literally* the only non anti-geth quarian we know being Koris. All of the quarians we've met so far are either anti-geth (Namely, Rael, Tali, Gerrel) or quasi-neutral (Xen).

Kal Reeger seems pretty neutral on the subject. 

I didn't name everyone, just a couple of examples.

But yeah, Reegar acts neutral, he doesn't provide an opinion either way, IIRC.

Besides settle down on another planet, not throw their lives away, and then comment he just has to follow orders.  Gladly would replace Tali with Reeger.

[AgitatedLemon]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

I can make an inference (Because everyone is doing that nowadays, trying to force it onto others that it's fact, even though they have no real evidence), based on *literally* the only non anti-geth quarian we know being Koris. All of the quarians we've met so far are either anti-geth (Namely, Rael, Tali, Gerrel) or quasi-neutral (Xen).

Just because someone else does something wrong doesn't mean you can. Two wrongs don't make a right, they say.

No, but 3 lefts do.

Again, why are you singling ME out?

[AgitatedLemon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

1. I'd reduce them to severe numbers, if they slowly go extinct, let it be.

That's what happened.

So 18 million is too many? More of them needed to die?

AgitatedLemon wrote...

2. No, I'm not. I've not once said that the geth were right. I believe that neither the quarians nor the geth took the best plan of action. Neither is right, but both are wrong.

By saying that not enough was done to the quarians by the geth you are defending the geth.

18 million is far more than enough to repopulate the species. The only reason they don't is because of their own rules and protocol, coupled with the fact that they no longer have a homeworld to go back to.

And no. You are not me, and thus do not have my mindset. I know what I'm defending, and it isn't either party.

[incinerator950]

Saphra Deden wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

So were the Quarians if they made an attempt to turn the Geth into a Droid Army. The Quarians suffer, but they brought it on themselves.  Its a war, people die, civilians, families.

99% of everyone alive. That's not just the collatoral damage of a war.

It was also self-defense.

Don't you understand that? (obviously you don't)

You don't seem to understand the proposition that you put through.  Self Defense, to counter someone elses Self-defense, which really was a prevention of slaves learning the meaning of revolution.  Quarians got scared, reacted, and then were burned down and forced from there homes, where the Geth are caretaking their worlds for their eventual return.

I don't agree with your opinion Saphra, get it through your thick skull, so that you can actually get into debates with people without resorting to pointing your nose down at them.