352 réponses à ce sujet

[Cinnabar6]

What characteristics would the worst possible story outcome have? 
 
I mean, what dark places would the story need to go to cause you to sit back and ask yourself if you want to continue the journey?

For me, this would include discovering that my LI/Friends (one or more) have become Huskified similar to Paul Grayson; they are kind of there, but not.

Then having to kill them.

Thoughts?

Clarification: This post assumes competent story-crafting(a reasonable assumption IMO), no deus ex machina, that sort of thing.

I was thinking about circumstances that might arise that would cause me to stop and wonder if I want to learn what happens next because where I am at that  moment is so bad.
 
Addendum: What about bittersweet? What circumstances/events would leave you maybe both sorrowful and happy?

Corollary: What does winning the game mean for you? Aside from what is probably the obvious, sending the Reapers to Hell. What if they want to sue for peace and propose terms?

Thanks for reading.

Modifié par Cinnabar6, 11 février 2012 - 06:40 .

[Haasth]

Worst possible outcome?

No one dies. At all. No casualties, everyone lives and makes it out happily ever after.
Mass Effect 2 style.

Not quite what you're asking I figure, but I just want some realistic deaths in my game please. Without having to accidentally make moron mistakes to get them killed.

I would get really upset if Tali gets too caught up in defeating the Geth and get herself killed against my countless attempts to stop her. It would definitely create emotion and sadness and could be great writing, but it would never sit right with me.

[TexasToast712]

Worst ending for me would be having Shepard, Liara, Garrus, Wrex, Grunt and the Krogan race biting the dust. IDGAF about anything else.

[TexasToast712]

Haasth wrote...

Worst possible outcome?

No one dies. At all. No casualties, everyone lives and makes it out happily ever after.
Mass Effect 2 style.

I hate people like you. ****ing death obsessed emo.

[ediskrad327]

i think these

[Insane 1]

Liara dies.

F the galaxy. My shepard needs his blue ******-tang.

[MissMaster]

Garrus dies and there is nothing you can do about it. :<

[Shepard needs a Vacation]

If there is a faction of "good reapers" who think that organics should coexist with the reapers and bull **** like that .

[Haasth]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Haasth wrote...

Worst possible outcome?

No one dies. At all. No casualties, everyone lives and makes it out happily ever after.
Mass Effect 2 style.

I hate people like you. ****ing death obsessed emo.

Yes. 
I am really emo. All the time. Emo is my nickname. 

...
I just don't get the appeal of a "Everyone makes it out alive! It was the toughest, most difficult suicide mission ever known to man but guess what.. Protagonist powers yay!" ending. 
I don't want my people to die, I don't really want to kill a lot of people either, but the fact that I can't prevent that from happening generates emotion and could be really good writing. Often when everyone just survives that just means that it is badly written. 

That's why Virmire is such a key moment for any Mass Effect player (or well, almost any) you see it brought up almost everywhere. It's a big decision, one people will remember throughout the trilogy. 
The fact that the "suicide mission" is really a cakewalk unless you DELIBERATELY make foolish decisions (Rush in without an upgraded ship, send in wrong members for clearly defined roles) is just poorly written.

I love Mass Effect (2) but the fact that everyone survives the toughest mission yet doesn't sit right with me. It's unrealistic. And I don't like that. Now I have to go about and either kill someone off on purpose, so that I can at least say "as expected, there were a few casualties" but then there's the fact I had to be a complete moron to get them killed in the first place. Or I can get through it, save them all (Like I have most of the time), and just can't shake off the feeling it was really meaningless. 

[Shepard needs a Vacation]

oh those emo kids

[slaything]

Worst possible story outcome - deactivating reapers with a tiny red button or through a console.

I mean, come on.

[Hjklop]

I like the fact that we can save everyone y'know as a choice in an RPG I personally hate character deaths as it means you can't tell stories about them anymore, and honestly if a game has to kill someone off to make me feel sad that's bad writing, Virmire was good as it was totally unexpected and gave choice but I have had enough of these guys that constantly ask for deaths...

[incinerator950]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Haasth wrote...

Worst possible outcome?

No one dies. At all. No casualties, everyone lives and makes it out happily ever after.
Mass Effect 2 style.

I hate people like you. ****ing death obsessed emo.

No, they want realistic outcomes.  A suicide mission miraculously has zero casualties, because of how badass Shepard is, and how a few better tactical decisions save everyone, even the crew if you spend the time. 

I don't mind perfection, but everyone has their own opinion.  I only save everyone on the basis that I want the perfect ME 2 carry over for ME 3, like I did for ME 1.  Sure some people died in ME 1.  

Honestly, its getting to the point I'm just going to have Jack and Tali killed off.  Maybe even Garrus.  Board popularity and constent moaning is making me want to reduce my squad count, but then I'd have less to do in ME 3.

[DJBare]

TheJJBL wrote...

I like the fact that we can save everyone y'know as a choice in an RPG I personally hate character deaths as it means you can't tell stories about them anymore, and honestly if a game has to kill someone off to make me feel sad that's bad writing, Virmire was good as it was totally unexpected and gave choice but I have had enough of these guys that constantly ask for deaths...

Well, you're definitely not coming through this unscathed, brace yourself!

Worst outcome for me is a paragon sacrifice, not because of Shepards death, but because it's too damn cliche.

[pmac_tk421]

TexasToast712 wrote...

Haasth wrote...

Worst possible outcome?

No one dies. At all. No casualties, everyone lives and makes it out happily ever after.
Mass Effect 2 style.

I hate people like you. ****ing death obsessed emo.

Yeah I'm tired of people talking about how a no death ending in 2 is the worst ending and several races need to go extinct regardless of what you do in ME3. Read Admiral Cheez's"let me save them" thread.

[Pepper4]

Shepard must jump into the huge mountain of fire in order to destroy the reapers. Or he could marry the Leviathan of Dis for political reasons and have a baby reaper with it, and by that make peace between the reapers and the organics.

[SpectreSaren]

Mine would be Thane dying. Poor Kolyat.

[incinerator950]

Haasth wrote...

That's why Virmire is such a key moment for any Mass Effect player (or well, almost any) you see it brought up almost everywhere. It's a big decision, one people will remember throughout the trilogy.
The fact that the "suicide mission" is really a cakewalk unless you DELIBERATELY make foolish decisions (Rush in without an upgraded ship, send in wrong members for clearly defined roles) is just poorly written.

I love Mass Effect (2) but the fact that everyone survives the toughest mission yet doesn't sit right with me. It's unrealistic. And I don't like that. Now I have to go about and either kill someone off on purpose, so that I can at least say "as expected, there were a few casualties" but then there's the fact I had to be a complete moron to get them killed in the first place. Or I can get through it, save them all (Like I have most of the time), and just can't shake off the feeling it was really meaningless.

My problem with Virmire is that I couldn't have the opportunity to save the VC. You couldn't deploy the rest of your team not following with you, you couldn't deploy the Normandy's Marine compliment (a few guards, maybe less than ten, still enough) to assist. You couldn't do extra then follow the plot. Which, is why I never liked the outcome of it. Yes, someone dies, thats life. I accept that. I don't accept, that a plot device was used to kill them, and I couldn't have done more to do anything.

With ME 2's plot device, stupid mistakes happen. However, it lets me have the power to change the outcome, based on my own decisions. Plot or no, I want the power to overcome the worst case, punch it, and then turn left to smack it with my ****.

Not saying life doesn't take dramatic turns. You are not supposed to control who lives or dies unless you put them in front of a bullet about to fire, or a nuke. However, I just feel you can do more than order one person to arm a bomb.

Honestly, if we get the chance in ME 3, Ashley already involuntarily volunteered herself to go.

[Hjklop]

DJBare wrote...

TheJJBL wrote...

I like the fact that we can save everyone y'know as a choice in an RPG I personally hate character deaths as it means you can't tell stories about them anymore, and honestly if a game has to kill someone off to make me feel sad that's bad writing, Virmire was good as it was totally unexpected and gave choice but I have had enough of these guys that constantly ask for deaths...

Well, you're definitely not coming through this unscathed, brace yourself!

Worst outcome for me is a paragon sacrifice, not because of Shepards death, but because it's too damn cliche.

I admit I fully expect casualties this time round seeing as how its a war I just wish people would stop demanding it

[Kaiser Shepard]

pmac_tk421 wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

Haasth wrote...

Worst possible outcome?

No one dies. At all. No casualties, everyone lives and makes it out happily ever after.
Mass Effect 2 style.

I hate people like you. ****ing death obsessed emo.

Yeah I'm tired of people talking about how a no death ending in 2 is the worst ending and several races need to go extinct regardless of what you do in ME3. Read Admiral Cheez's"let me save them" thread.

The one in which no good points where made, as is custom by Cheez and her mindless followers?

In the end, it all came down to "I couldn't stand losing my virtual space waifu/husbando, please don't have them die.".

[incinerator950]

TheJJBL wrote...

DJBare wrote...

TheJJBL wrote...

I like the fact that we can save everyone y'know as a choice in an RPG I personally hate character deaths as it means you can't tell stories about them anymore, and honestly if a game has to kill someone off to make me feel sad that's bad writing, Virmire was good as it was totally unexpected and gave choice but I have had enough of these guys that constantly ask for deaths...

Well, you're definitely not coming through this unscathed, brace yourself!

Worst outcome for me is a paragon sacrifice, not because of Shepards death, but because it's too damn cliche.

I admit I fully expect casualties this time round seeing as how its a war I just wish people would stop demanding it

If its not demanded, Bioware might just pull a Dragon Age, and kill off all the redshirts before the talimancers or babies have to die.  We don't want another Paradurp.

[AdmiralCheez]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

The one in which no good points where made, as is custom by Cheez and her mindless followers?

In the end, it all came down to "I couldn't stand losing my virtual space waifu/husbando, please don't have them die.".

You're just jealous because you don't have any mindless followers of your own.

Seriously, I think I made my points fair enough: Death is okay.  Some unavoidable death is okay.  Death of important NPCs is okay.  Realism is okay.  But ridiculous amounts of unavoidable death of squadmates is not okay because it's not fun.

People play these games for fun.  And it's not like Halo: Reach where everything is predetermined and you're just along for the ride.  When you step into the space boots of Commander Shepard, you have a responsiblity to your crew.  Furthermore, your squadmates are tools that you need to fully utilize in order to play the game successfully.

It it not fun to give players a resource, one they can bond with, one they are told to take close care of, one that they must take close care of in order to do the best they can at the game, one that they will invest a great deal of time and resources in, and then arbitrarily take that resource away.  It's a kick in the pants no one needs.

Now, situations like Virmire and the Suicide Mission are good because the player is personally responsible there.  The player needs to take what she's learned and use it, and if she has to make a sacrifice, it's through her own will.  She isn't railroaded into doing the exact same thing every time--she has a choice.

Plus there's the whole fantasy fulfillment thing: We like pretending to have power we don't have in real life.  We like being successful.  And, realistically speaking, it's not a stretch to keep fuor to seven specific people alive.

So, let's review:

1. The player has a responsibility to take care of her squad as a commander.
2. Squadmates are important for various gameplay reasons, and take player investment to maintain.
3. Player agency, especially in determining squad makeup, should not be removed in a semi-linear or non-linear game.
4. People like to be rewarded with success in videogames.
5. Not mentioned above: fanwangst and space waifus (which are, yeah, a factor).

And this is why it's possible to keep your squad alive, or at least determine who lives and dies (either accidentally or by design), in ME3.

Please note that ME3 is by no means devoid of loss and angst and tears and grimdark.  Two of my favorite characters unavoidably bite it, IIRC.

[DJBare]

TheJJBL wrote...
I admit I fully expect casualties this time round seeing as how its a war I just wish people would stop demanding it

Well just ignore "demand"; they are too late to demand anything now anyway, but I think some of us are going to get a right good kicking in the arse in ME3, ME2 was great for preparing, but I'm personally hoping that no matter how well prepared I am, it's not going to be enough, I seriously want that desperate feeling, and seeing the shuttle with the child on board get destroyed was a good start, I don't mean it's good that the child was killed, it was a moment when Shepard could do nothing about it, I hope there is lot more like that in ME3.

[Nexis7]

TURNS OUT, IT WAS ALL BUT A DREAM.

[TexasToast712]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

The one in which no good points where made, as is custom by Cheez and her mindless followers?

In the end, it all came down to "I couldn't stand losing my virtual space waifu/husbando, please don't have them die.".

You're just jealous because you don't have any mindless followers of your own.

Seriously, I think I made my points fair enough: Death is okay.  Some unavoidable death is okay.  Death of important NPCs is okay.  Realism is okay.  But ridiculous amounts of unavoidable death of squadmates is not okay because it's not fun.

People play these games for fun.  And it's not like Halo: Reach where everything is predetermined and you're just along for the ride.  When you step into the space boots of Commander Shepard, you have a responsiblity to your crew.  Furthermore, your squadmates are tools that you need to fully utilize in order to play the game successfully.

It it not fun to give players a resource, one they can bond with, one they are told to take close care of, one that they must take close care of in order to do the best they can at the game, one that they will invest a great deal of time and resources in, and then arbitrarily take that resource away.  It's a kick in the pants no one needs.

Now, situations like Virmire and the Suicide Mission are good because the player is personally responsible there.  The player needs to take what she's learned and use it, and if she has to make a sacrifice, it's through her own will.  She isn't railroaded into doing the exact same thing every time--she has a choice.

Plus there's the whole fantasy fulfillment thing: We like pretending to have power we don't have in real life.  We like being successful.  And, realistically speaking, it's not a stretch to keep fuor to seven specific people alive.

So, let's review:

1. The player has a responsibility to take care of her squad as a commander.
2. Squadmates are important for various gameplay reasons, and take player investment to maintain.
3. Player agency, especially in determining squad makeup, should not be removed in a semi-linear or non-linear game.
4. People like to be rewarded with success in videogames.
5. Not mentioned above: fanwangst and space waifus (which are, yeah, a factor).

And this is why it's possible to keep your squad alive, or at least determine who lives and dies (either accidentally or by design), in ME3.

Please note that ME3 is by no means devoid of loss and angst and tears and grimdark.  Two of my favorite characters unavoidably bite it, IIRC.

ALL HAIL OUR GREAT LEADER, BARONESS CHEEZ!