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[PrinceLionheart]

Asch Lavigne wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Drone223 wrote...

And Legion

I feel bad for forgetting about him.

His loyalty mission actually tied into the plot really well and added a lot to the geth lore. So yeah, Mordin and Legion. Everyone else was just in their own little worlds waiting for their Loyalty Missions that didn't actually tie-in to the plot.

What about Tali? Her recruitment mission mentioned Dark Matter and a dying sun. Dark Matter was also mentioned somewhere else in the game, can't remember where.

Her loyalty mission pretty much said "The Quarians will be going to all out war with the Geth" which we know is happening in ME3.

Mordin's LM had the genophage which I'm certain will come up again.

Grunt & Mordin's LMs, well just being on Tuchanka with Wrex or Reave(?) uniting the Korgan is also relevant.

All of which had absolutely nothing to do with the Central plot of ME2. I mean sure, they may tie into their stories again in ME3, but as far as ME2's story go, the only squadmembers that were essential to the plot was Mordin and to a lesser degree Legion. Even Miranda and Jacob were rather trivial in the scheme of things.

And similar to Miranda, I'm noticing a trend that people are over-exaggerating Tali's role as well. She gave Shepard evidence he needed. After that, she was literally in the background for the rest of ME1. She really only contributes if you put off recruiting Liara to the very last second.

Modifié par PrinceLionheart, 04 février 2012 - 04:48 .

[LetMeW1n]

@Ricvenart
Kind of agree with your basic idea of Liara not being as vital as is thought if the other characters could just step up their game a little bit. But.. I think you think your ME1 crew is too thick. Their not that thick. Don't want to 'elaborate' on that, but yeah, lol.

And 3. The SB wanted shep's body to exchange for some very valuable tech with the collectors.. In no way did he think he think that this'll net him some partnership with the reapers or something. It's all business, still. And cos he thought the reapers have nothing to gain from this transaction as its "just a dead body". Lol will sleep now

Modifié par LetMeW1n, 04 février 2012 - 05:24 .

[Barquiel]

Ricvenart wrote...

1. No she tells you everything you found out from other sources ages ago. Tali adds the reaper explaination as you already state, The Thorian/Shiala help you organize the image into something more solid, Benezia gives you a better idea of where the condiut is.
2. If the rest of the crew weren't forced to act so thick for the sake of Liara importance, they could have pinpointed it via Benezia saying the system and finding out which planet has major prothean ruins (it's stated numerous times theres not that many in great condition so even without the above it would have become a fairly obvious choice) though numberous sources including other prothean experts not the newest understudy on the scene thats just doing it to avoid people.
3. Oh yes "saved" us from the SB, more like BW desperation to involved that blue alien chick "killed" the SB in more ways then one, he could have been a much more interesting character with more importance then just becoming a galatic Cerberus clone, that is supposedly highly intelligent with a great wealth of knowlegde yet thinks giving away the only person to destroy a reaper would lead him to be spared by Collectors and Reapers, and what then? he'd have no role past that and no usefulness, just like selling information to everyone prevented wars meaning he was an ongoing nessessicity, him doing that makes him redundant. Another case of a character becoming underplayed and thick as a brick for the sake of Liara. Just to rub salt on the wound after flip floping in her majorly hypocritical role (which is fine apparently) she's tossing all that she worked towards away so she can have more screen time in 3 while judging us for not picking the relationship she would call inappropriete with others.
I've left the Tali bit in the quote just to point out how much more she provides, without her knowlegde and skill with the geth no evidence would have been found til far too late, Saren would have remained a spectre and Shepard never would have become one to chase him down.

Liara is one of the least important characters but sadly a major selling point and has been packed in (poorly mostly) to the story giving a false impression of being a key player.

By your "logic", no character is important. I could easily write Tali out of the story as well. Shepard doesn't have to be a spectre to investigate Feros.

Shepard liberates Feros -> we find Shiala -> she tells us about Benezia, Saren and the geth -> "You wanted proof? There you have it!" -> the council makes Shepard a spectre

You can always find a character who could fill the role of squadmate X.

[LilyasAvalon]

Barquiel wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

No hate on Liara or the Asari in general, I personally adore Liara like a sister, but you can't deny she gets more screen time than any other squad mate.

Tali and Garrus get definitely more screentime than Liara. I mean...they are full-fledged squadmates in all three games. Liara was sidelined in ME2.

Liara still received her own prequel comic to ME2, a DLC focusing SOLELY around her while majority of the time, Garrus was in the 'middle of calibrations' and Tali was too busy with the ships engine. Unless you are romancing either of them, there is little focus on either of them.

[Silver77nz]

G3rman wrote...

Miranda got her own comic and she brought Shepard back to life, effectively allowing ME2 and ME3 to happen.

You have a really damn good point!!!!!

[slaything]

I appreciate Liara but I dislike that she is forced unto us. I really hope we can kill her off finally in ME3, since every other squadmate except her can be killed either in ME1 or ME2. She seems to be getting a lot attention at the expense of other characters and she is one of the fan favorites... she is romanceable by both genders after all... so it's understandable.

I just wish we could chose what to do with her.
In ME she was kind of... uninteresting. Kind of simple with no complexity at all,
so now BioWare changed her personality and made her 'darker' so even more people can like her
and forced her into our squad again
yay!
In general trying to make characters cool to this extent does not pay off.

[Ricvenart]

LetMeW1n wrote...

@Ricvenart
Kind of agree with your basic idea of Liara not being as vital as is thought if the other characters could just step up their game a little bit. But.. I think you think your ME1 crew is too thick. Their not that thick. Don't want to 'elaborate' on that, but yeah, lol.

And 3. The SB wanted shep's body to exchange for some very valuable tech with the collectors.. In no way did he think he think that this'll net him some partnership with the reapers or something. It's all business, still. And cos he thought the reapers have nothing to gain from this transaction as its "just a dead body". Lol will sleep now

No I don't think they are thick, which is why I dislike Liara so much, for her sake they have these completely "Duh all these puzzle pieces don't fit together" *smashes them with a hammer*.

Regarding the other thing, I have no quotes to hand and it's not first hand from his mouth but I believe it was Liara (shocker) explaining his motivations for trading your body, very much a Saren moment of trying to prove himself useful and avoid the incoming invasion he actually feared.

And no to the person below, that wouldn't completely write out Tali's pivotal part of the plot, The concil would dismiss Shiara the same as the smuggler on Feros "Weak testimony of the traumatised", Tali's is Audio proof of Saren admitting a role in EP and the only logical conclusion that he has geth in his control. That is if they even got that far and someone didn't kill Shepard without hesistiation for not being a Spectre. Really Shepard and the Galaxy got lucky with Tali because without her at that point in her pilgramage the entire plot would play out differently. No offense by you'll have to try harder to be condesending and insulting though "logic", all I did was point out reasons other characters play a better role not try to attack someone personally..

The bigger plothole that bothers me then Liara though is with all thier technology how come no one on any squad carries audio/visual recording equipment, especially post Tali's evidence after finding it so crucial.

[SilvinC]

Ricvenart wrote...

1. No she tells you everything you found out from other sources ages ago. Tali adds the reaper explaination as you already state, The Thorian/Shiala help you organize the image into something more solid, Benezia gives you a better idea of where the condiut is.
2. If the rest of the crew weren't forced to act so thick for the sake of Liara importance, they could have pinpointed it via Benezia saying the system and finding out which planet has major prothean ruins (it's stated numerous times theres not that many in great condition so even without the above it would have become a fairly obvious choice) though numberous sources including other prothean experts not the newest understudy on the scene thats just doing it to avoid people.
3. Oh yes "saved" us from the SB, more like BW desperation to involved that blue alien chick "killed" the SB in more ways then one, he could have been a much more interesting character with more importance then just becoming a galatic Cerberus clone, that is supposedly highly intelligent with a great wealth of knowlegde yet thinks giving away the only person to destroy a reaper would lead him to be spared by Collectors and Reapers, and what then? he'd have no role past that and no usefulness, just like selling information to everyone prevented wars meaning he was an ongoing nessessicity, him doing that makes him redundant. Another case of a character becoming underplayed and thick as a brick for the sake of Liara. Just to rub salt on the wound after flip floping in her majorly hypocritical role (which is fine apparently) she's tossing all that she worked towards away so she can have more screen time in 3 while judging us for not picking the relationship she would call inappropriete with others.

It seems to me that you didn't really pay much attention to the story in Mass Effect 1.

[Han Shot First]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

jreezy wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Everyone has their own opinion. But in terms of Bioware's opinion? You can't really lie, she really is kind of put on her own little pedestal.

BioWare hasn't said anything on this subject before. 

Do you really think Bioware is going to openly admit to preferrancial treatment? They're certainly not stupid.

Nor should they, because the term 'preferential treatment' being used in reference to Liara, is just another example of BSN overreaction. The real issue here, as far as people saying Liara is 'forced' on them and that she gets 'preferential treatment,' is that some fans of other characters are butthurt that their own particular favorite character is not more plot relevant than Liara.  Using Star Wars as an example, is is like accusing George Lucas of giving Han Solo preferential treatment and forcing  him on the viewer because he gets more screen time and has more plot relevance than Chewbacca. In short, it is ridiculous.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 04 février 2012 - 09:08 .

[CptData]

Roxy12 wrote...

CptData wrote...

She's still more like a "plot device" than a real character (except her romance arc, if she's your LI).

 

Did you play Lotsb? Liara is one of the few LI characters who is equally strong with a friendship arc as she is with a romance, in my opinion. The cabin scene works really nice with friendship Liara, too. Liara asks Shepard how Shepard really feels about the mission, they discuss your ME2 romance, etc. The whole dialogue sequences between them made both characters come fully alive for me. There are other characters who suffer more from not being Shepards LI (the VS and Garrus come particularly to my mind)

Actually, that's the best part of LotSB.

I just dislike the fact Liara has to be the LotSB - and that BW had to break her character to make it plausible. I loved socially awkward scientist Liara far more. I can't point my finger at it, but she definitely feels colder, more dangerous ... even if she's an ally.

Whatever. Lets see what role Liara is going to play in ME3. Without going into details, it's kinda going to be the same like in ME1: VS = drama role, Liara = plot relevant role.
That's why I go for the VS.

[Barquiel]

Ricvenart wrote...

And no to the person below, that wouldn't completely write out Tali's pivotal part of the plot, The concil would dismiss Shiara the same as the smuggler on Feros "Weak testimony of the traumatised", Tali's is Audio proof of Saren admitting a role in EP and the only logical conclusion that he has geth in his control. That is if they even got that far and someone didn't kill Shepard without hesistiation for not being a Spectre. Really Shepard and the Galaxy got lucky with Tali because without her at that point in her pilgramage the entire plot would play out differently. No offense by you'll have to try harder to be condesending and insulting though "logic", all I did was point out reasons other characters play a better role not try to attack someone personally..

The council didn't believe Shepard because some traumatized human dock worker, interrogated by humans...under the command of Anderson (who knows Saren) was our only evidence. Shepard doesn't have to be a spectre to visit Feros or Therum (Spectre status was only useful on Noveria...in order to keep the weapons) After completing Feros and Therum, we have the testimony of Benezia's daughter and Benezia's right hand that Saren and Benezia went rogue. I think that's better evidence than some audio file (because nobody would ever fake audio files!).

Modifié par Barquiel, 04 février 2012 - 09:34 .

[Han Shot First]

CptData wrote...

I just dislike the fact Liara has to be the LotSB - and that BW had to break her character to make it plausible. I loved socially awkward scientist Liara far more. I can't point my finger at it, but she definitely feels colder, more dangerous ... even if she's an ally.

I think Liara's character development from ME1 to LotSB made her more interesting. I prefer the more Benezia-like Liara than more naive version of her in Mass Effect 1. Besides, with Tali Bioware had created two characters (Liara of course being the other) on your squad who were socially awkward (but hot) geek girls. It made sense for them to take at least one of them in a different direction.

[JeffZero]

Yes, I tend to consider her as such. Mind you, I feel as though while she's a good character, she's fairly middling as far as the above-average nature of the series' expansive cast goes. But her overall relevance has lent me to list her second after Shepard whenever naming characters.

[gearseffect]

Han Shot First wrote...
Nor should they, because the term 'preferential treatment' being used in reference to Liara, is just another example of BSN overreaction. The real issue here, as far as people saying Liara is 'forced' on them and that she gets 'preferential treatment,' is that some fans of other characters are butthurt that their own particular favorite character is not more plot relevant than Liara.  Using Star Wars as an example, is is like accusing George Lucas of giving Han Solo preferential treatment and forcing  him on the viewer because he gets more screen time and has more plot relevance than Chewbacca. In short, it is ridiculous.

This and This

Han Shot First wrote... think Liara's character development from ME1 to LotSB made her more
interesting. I prefer the more Benezia-like Liara than more naive
version of her in Mass Effect 1. Besides, with Tali Bioware had created
two characters (Liara of course being the other) on your squad who were
socially awkward (but hot) geek girls. It made sense for them to take at
least one of them in a different direction.

Han is smart and I agree with ya 100%
The very same arguement about Liara being forced on us could aslo be made about Joker, being forced on us
Joker is forced on us
"1.The only reason he didn't get taken by the collectors in ME2 with Kelly is becauses he's Seth Green

2.You can't tell me that Shep couldn't unshackle EDI upon returning to the Normandy, Joker really should have been taken  by the Collectors too and the Story would have been fine all he does is fly the ship and play Seth Green the Piloit of the Normandy,

3.If Joker had been taken by the Collectors TIM could have found the Normandy new poliot on Omega or anywhere without a problem

4.all this points to Bioware giving Joker preferential treatment"

But that just translates to me being butthurt about Kelly, Gabby, Ken, Dr, Chuckwas, Rupert, or any other Crew members not getting as big a role as I'd like her to have in ME3 and I'm taking it out on Joker Seth Green.

If your gonna be butthurt about a charter and blame something do what I do and blame the Multiplayer in ME3 If Bioware hadn't spent the time with the MP, they'd have been albe to get more time in for Samara, Jack, Miranda, Grunt, Thane, Legion, Mornirth, Mordin, Jacob, Kasumi, Wrex, Kelly, and so on

Modifié par gearseffect, 05 février 2012 - 12:06 .

[Ricvenart]

SilvinTT56 wrote...

[It seems to me that you didn't really pay much attention to the story in Mass Effect 1.

Enough of you're dissingenuous assertions, If I hadn't I wouldn't have been able to say that much about it, unlike you I might add who can't make an arguement against it but just pettily try to insult my intelligence.

But whatever I thought this was up for debate on who is a more important character disscussion, not just another Liara fan thread (which I wouldn't go in just to say how much I dislike her role in the series because it'd be moronic to enter a fan thread as not a fan), wonder why it hasn't been merged or locked yet.

@Barquiel: You're right she's not needed either then since hear say and family members who haven't spoke for decades makes for valid testimony.

@gearseffect: Are you serious? You're saying not having him sit there and do nothing to try and stop whats happening (like every single member of the crew is trying to do) is preferenial treatment? It's been stated repeatedly Joker just isn't any pilot but a highly skilled one though determination to overcome his illness, so much so he even impresses a AI with his skill.
Other then that Liara is no more Benezia like then Joker is in ME2, other then not truly knowing her personality much as she was a zombie 90% of the time, she certainly was not hinted at having many followers for Kicking A and taking names. And I wouldn't get to attached to her sudden personality transplant in LotSB as she's due another one in a month, yeah she's really not shoved into holes for the sake of being there.

[SilvinC]

Ricvenart wrote...

SilvinTT56 wrote...

[It seems to me that you didn't really pay much attention to the story in Mass Effect 1.

Enough of you're dissingenuous assertions, If I hadn't I wouldn't have been able to say that much about it, unlike you I might add who can't make an arguement against it but just pettily try to insult my intelligence.

Then maybe you should make some intelligent (and less biased) arguements? One example, Benezia didn't tell you the system, only the position of the Mu-relay (that was lost four thousand years ago). Your squadmates flat out tell you that the relay's coordinates are not enough, because you don't know where Saren planned to go from there. Supposedly, Saren is racing at top speed to find the Mu Relay, get to Ilos, and get through the Conduit to open the way for the Reaper invasion. Shepard doesn't have time to explore an unknown region of the galaxy and search for planets with prothean ruins.

[Dean_the_Young]

Is she? Yes. Much like Cerberus, in a way.

Liara is the developer's favored 'benevolent' plot clay, who changes to be whatever the situation requires in order to benefit Shepard, whereas Cerberus is the 'antagonistic' plot clay, remade to stir up whatever trouble needs to be done from the other direction. Whatever they need to be at the time, they turn into: Liara goes from socially awkward bookworm archeologist to action girl to edgy dedicated spy master and back to squadmate.


While 'Liara' is important only to Shepard on Shepard's own team, it's important to realize that there really isn't a single 'Liara' character. There's one name and face, but a number of separate personalities that are changed: it's pretty easy to be plot-relevant when you remove all but the more superficial consistencies.

[Ricvenart]

Funny how you now attack my intelligence on top of my observational skills when it's really you who should have paid more attention.
Benezia did find out the system of the Mu relay, just not the planet, and though simple elimination (who many planets have ruins like Ilos still?) they could have found out the planet from any prothean expert, probally on the extranet if they wanted. If Liara was so key, due to somehow knowing the conduit was on Ilos, then how is it Saren got there before you without her? Benezia didn't know, she's no prothean expert and would have told you before she lost control. It's simple he got there first only down to the fact he found out first, he didn't have to scour the galaxy and I never said Shepards team needed to or should have but he didn't need Benezia or Liara to meld with his mind and work it out. Which is exactly what I meant by the team acting stupid so she'd have a bigger part then is needed.

Try harder, not everyone has to love Liara or accept she's the biggest part of ME behind Shepard and have the right not to like her when bioware as Dean_the_Young so eloquently puts using her as "plot clay" to fufill any situation, it doesn't mean they weren't paying attention or are morons. Frankly when you have to stoop so low to make an arguement it only makes yourself look worse, maybe if you'd prefer a "discussion" amoung people who exclusively love Liara the already existing Liara fan thread will suit your needs better, we don't need another one, it'll only be shut down for being a duplicate.

Still I'll maintain the technology they should have then would easily replace most of the characters, if only Shepard had a Video camera and Joker didn't constantly delete all audio files to make room for more questionable adult material. Then again the Asari concellour could have merged with Shepards mind to witness the many things they carry on disbelieving after all he's done for them, why is she the only one that never does it when every other Asari you meet seems to want to. It's the only hole bigger then Liara's.

[JosephDucreux]

Nah, Liara isn't the most important. She just so happens to be Mac Walter's waifu.

[Golden Owl]

Ryzaki wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

ME 1: Nope
ME 2: Nope
ME 3: If she's still SB, yes.

ME1: Uh...yes without her Shep would've never been able to reach Ilos and stop Saren. If Shep does everything but pick up Liara he can't get to Ilos.
ME2: Uh...without her Shep wouldn't be alive to stop the Collectors
ME3: Based off the leak script the Reapers only become defeatable thanks to her.

Oh dear...I have never killed a squaddie without the plot demanding it (VS)...but if this is the case, I really am sick to death of Liara and it's sadly looking like I may just take up squaddie killing just to get her blue stalking *ss finally off my Sheps back....I wish BW would give it a break with her...

[tetrisblock4x1]

Much more important than Shepard to be honest, at least she wasin ME2. Shepard keeps saying stupid things and is more or less expendable now that he's filled his role of getting the IFF to make it through to the collector base. From Mass Effect 3 onwards Shepard is just a grunt, and Liara is the shadow broker, and been what she is she has all the intel and all the power.

[kumquats]

Golden Owl wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

ME 1: Nope
ME 2: Nope
ME 3: If she's still SB, yes.

ME1: Uh...yes without her Shep would've never been able to reach Ilos and stop Saren. If Shep does everything but pick up Liara he can't get to Ilos.
ME2: Uh...without her Shep wouldn't be alive to stop the Collectors
ME3: Based off the leak script the Reapers only become defeatable thanks to her.

Oh dear...I have never killed a squaddie without the plot demanding it (VS)...but if this is the case, I really am sick to death of Liara and it's sadly looking like I may just take up squaddie killing just to get her blue stalking *ss finally off my Sheps back....I wish BW would give it a break with her...

ME2: Uh...without Feron Shep wouldn't be alive to stop the Collectors
Based off LotSB the Reapers only become defeatable thanks to her.

I fixed that.

[Dariustwinblade]

No! Liara is important but not more than Shepard.

Liara shares the title of most important alongside with Hackett and Anderson.

The trio that always has Shepards back, supporting him from the shadows and being critical to the reaper war plot.

And the most plot important after Shepard,Liara, Anderson and Hackett is TIM who opposes everyone.

[DPSSOC]

It's funny I actually stopped thinking of Liara as a character a long time ago. What Liara is, essentially, is the go to plot device for Mass Effect.

Ok so we've got all this information but no way to make sense of it, go to Liara
Ok Shepard's been killed and we need to bring him/her back, go to Liara
There's a hub world with 2 squadmates on it, how does Shepard find them, go to Liara
Players who didn't read the comic need to know how Cerberus got the body, Miranda, Jacob, or the Illusive Man could tell him but, go to Liara
Shepard's going to need access to the SB's information network later (speculation), go to Liara
There's a legendary doodad that can do stuff to make boom but no one knows where it is (speculation), go to Liara

Now this isn't bad in and of itself, in fact I think it's done quite well in the series, and the only reason it grates is because of how often they resort to Liara, especially when alternatives do exist.