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[General User]

You could call this TR;DL... but each quote is pretty much a separate thought and can be read on its own, so it's not like this is some long essay or anything.

“Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves.” - Applies to both the Templars who oppress mages and mages who would do the same to Templars (and others) if they had the chance.

“I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends.” - To really want to resolve this conflict, each side needs to be willing to make friends of the other.

“Whatever you are, [Mage or Templar] be a good one.” - There are good people on both sides who strive to live up to each side's more noble ideals.  It's these people who can build a peace.

“Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.” - Some are born to adversity and only later acquire power, others are born with power and as a consequence face much adversity.  We must weigh the character of each.

“[The Nations of Thedas] will never be destroyed from the outside.  [But we just might] destroy ourselves.” - This conflict is tearing Thedas apart and there are any number of outsiders who would love to gobble up the pieces (literally in some cases).

“If you look for the bad in people expecting to find it, you surely will.” - Those good people who are on both sides?  If you aren't looking you'll never find them.

“Sir, my concern is not whether [The Maker] is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on [The Maker]'s side, for [The Maker] is always right.” - What the Chant teaches and what the Templars do in its name are not at all similar.

“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.” - Breaking down the current system will not bring freedom to the mages, only chaos to all, and resentment for centuries.

“I walk slowly, but I never walk backward” - It is best to embrace reasoned reform, not radical change.

“Don't worry when you are not recognized, but strive to be worthy of recognition.” - Mages need to understand, if they want the rest of Thedas to grant them the freedoms the desire (and deserve) then they still have to prove themselves worthy of those freedoms.

“Be sure you put your feet in the right place, then stand firm.” - Don't compromise True Principles for either side for neither has yet proven to be worth it.

“To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards out of men” - The mages have been horribly mistreated and oppressed.  No good person should be silent or unmoved by this.

 “Human action can be modified to some extent, but human nature cannot be changed.” - If the mages cast down a tyranny by adopting methods just as heinous all they'll do is raise another tyranny in its place.  One that will be cast down itself in time.

“We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection." - We're all Thedans, we're all in this together…

“A house divided against itself cannot stand.” - … and if we don't all stand together the Qunari, Darkspawn, and Magisters will take us down.

“I will prepare and some day my chance will come.” - No matter how it happened this is the mages moment.  Will they answer the High Calling and prove worthy of this moment?  Or will they degenerate into just another one of those gangs of atrocity-committing revolutionary thugs that litter the history books?

“I have always found that mercy bears richer fruits that strict justice.” - Even if doing to the Templars things just as bad as some of them have done to mages was justice (and it isn't), it isn't going to win/earn the mages their freedom.

Modifié par General User, 04 février 2012 - 03:07 .

[Rifneno]

What a terrible attempt to twist quotes out of their original intention.  And a disservice to a great man.  Lincoln understood when it was necessary to fight for freedom.  You malign his words to argue that a group of fascist zealots will take their foot off a minority's throat if you try to be their friends.

[General User]

Any particular interpretation draw you ire? And if so, what does that quote mean to you?

I say that what made Lincoln so great was that he understood when freedom had to be fought for, when freedom had to be compromised, and when the most important thing to do was to reconcile with those who had opposed him. To hold all those things in balance... well, few have proven worthy, let alone capable.

All those things Thedans could benefit greatly from. Thedas needs a leader like Lincoln. Nothing less will do.

Modifié par General User, 04 février 2012 - 03:20 .

[Agamo45]

Rifneno wrote...

What a terrible attempt to twist quotes out of their original intention.  And a disservice to a great man.  Lincoln understood when it was necessary to fight for freedom.  You malign his words to argue that a group of fascist zealots will take their foot off a minority's throat if you try to be their friends.

Lincoln was not the absolute abolitionist that you seem to think he is. He stated that if he could end the civil war without freeing a single slave, he would do it if it would save the Union. 

[Xilizhra]

Lincoln was decent for his own time, but his views on freedom and rights are inferior to those of most of us today. He was a skilled leader who was in a position where he could do some good, but trying to copy him wholesale on all things is foolish.

Lincoln was not the absolute abolitionist that you seem to think he is. He stated that if he could end the civil war without freeing a single slave, he would do it if it would save the Union.

Probably the one true thing you've said on these forums. Though he was fortunately able to help the abolitionist side regardless.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 04 février 2012 - 03:40 .

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lincoln was decent for his own time, but his views on freedom and rights are inferior to those of most of us today. He was a skilled leader who was in a position where he could do some good, but trying to copy him wholesale on all things is foolish.

Well... yeah!  Of course copying Lincoln lock, stock, and stovepipe hat wouldn't work in a fantasy setting. 
(Although... Lincoln did once duel a chap by the name of James Shields... with a sword no less!  I'm just sayin'...)

Seriously though, my thing is: Abraham Lincoln was one of the greatest leaders the human race has ever produced.  There has to be some wisdom we can glean from him!

Modifié par General User, 04 février 2012 - 03:51 .

[Xilizhra]

And now, I shall cover these one by one.

[quote]“Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves.” - Applies to both the Templars who oppress mages and mages who would do the same to Templars (and others) if they had the chance.[/quote]
In the second case, only applicable to peace after the war is over. Before, all templars are enemy combatants and will be treated as such.

[quote]“I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends.” - To really want to resolve this conflict, each side needs to be willing to make friends of the other.[/quote]
Usable for the Chantry, probably not many templars. My policy is to allow templars to defect, but loyalist templars must all be neutralized through one means or another.

[quote]“Whatever you are, [Mage or Templar] be a good one.” - There are good people on both sides who strive to live up to each side's more noble ideals. It's these people who can build a peace.[/quote]
Defectors. No loyalist templar is a good person unless heavily indoctrinated. Of course, they can be redeemed thereafter, but I'm not sure if that's what you meant.

[quote]“Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.” - Some are born to adversity and only later acquire power, others are born with power and as a consequence face much adversity. We must weigh the character of each.[/quote]
A test templars have utterly failed. We shall see what happens later on.

[quote]“[The Nations of Thedas] will never be destroyed from the outside. [But we just might] destroy ourselves.” - This conflict is tearing Thedas apart and there are any number of outsiders who would love to gobble up the pieces (literally in some cases).[/quote]
A war prosecuted by the templars, and their choice from the beginning. Tell it to them.

[quote]“If you look for the bad in people expecting to find it, you surely will.” - Those good people who are on both sides? If you aren't looking you'll never find them.[/quote]
Time to look is rather thin.

[quote]“Sir, my concern is not whether [The Maker] is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on [The Maker]'s side, for [The Maker] is always right.” - What the Chant teaches and what the Templars do in its name are not at all similar.[/quote]
If the Maker really exists, he's an evil bastard and being against him is a good thing. Unless, by an exceedingly long shot, Leliana happens to be right.

[quote]“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.” - Breaking down the current system will not bring freedom to the mages, only chaos to all, and resentment for centuries.[/quote]
Then build something later, but the current system must be utterly smashed. It'd be more accurate to say that you can't strengthen the weak by ONLY weakening the strong.

[quote]“I walk slowly, but I never walk backward” - It is best to embrace reasoned reform, not radical change.[/quote]
Perhaps, but that's no longer an option.

[quote]“Don't worry when you are not recognized, but strive to be worthy of recognition.” - Mages need to understand, if they want the rest of Thedas to grant them the freedoms the desire (and deserve) then they still have to prove themselves worthy of those freedoms.[/quote]
This is likely folly, considering that too much of Thedas' population is idiotically superstitious. A majority cannot be used to determine rights alone.

[quote]“Be sure you put your feet in the right place, then stand firm.” - Don't compromise True Principles for either side for neither has yet proven to be worth it.[/quote]
One has conclusively proven itself to not be.

[quote]“To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards out of men” - The mages have been horribly mistreated and oppressed. No good person should be silent or unmoved by this.[/quote]
Thedas has rather few good people, regrettably.

[quote] “Human action can be modified to some extent, but human nature cannot be changed.” - If the mages cast down a tyranny by adopting methods just as heinous all they'll do is raise another tyranny in its place. One that will be cast down itself in time.[/quote]
Well, so long as it's not slavery, that'll be a step up.

[quote]“We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection." - We're all Thedans, we're all in this together…[/quote]
One could say that, but you may as well say the same thing about us and the qunari, with us all being carbon-based life forms. It's a nice sentiment, and one I agree with, but used overly narrowly to want to end this war specifically.

[quote]“A house divided against itself cannot stand.” - … and if we don't all stand together the Qunari, Darkspawn, and Magisters will take us down.[/quote]
The magisters are more worried about the qunari, and hopefully they can keep each other occupied. If anything, we'll probably need their help.

[quote]“I will prepare and some day my chance will come.” - No matter how it happened this is the mages moment. Will they answer the High Calling and prove worthy of this moment? Or will they degenerate into just another one of those gangs of atrocity-committing revolutionary thugs that litter the history books?[/quote]
It's gone too far for something as dismissive as the second to be used.

[quote]“I have always found that mercy bears richer fruits that strict justice.” - Even if doing to the Templars things just as bad as some of them have done to mages was justice (and it isn't), it isn't going to win/earn the mages their freedom.[/quote]
No, but the only thing that will is victory.

[Rifneno]

General User wrote...

Any particular interpretation draw you ire? And if so, what does that quote mean to you?

I say that what made Lincoln so great was that he understood when freedom had to be fought for, when freedom had to be compromised, and when the most important thing to do was to reconcile with those who had opposed him. To hold all those things in balance... well, few have proven worthy, let alone capable.

All those things Thedans could benefit greatly from. Thedas needs a leader like Lincoln. Nothing less will do.

You really want the laundry list? Fine...

*****
“I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends.” - To really want to resolve this conflict, each side needs to be willing to make friends of the other.
*****

I rather doubt Lincoln was talking about enemies that want to imprison and abuse people because they think their god told them to. More likely he was talking about political enemies, or something of a similar mundane nature. Not people that are actively trying to kill him because someone he never met with a similar genetic trait did something bad.

*****
“[The Nations of Thedas] will never be destroyed from the outside. [But we just might] destroy ourselves.” - This conflict is tearing Thedas apart and there are any number of outsiders who would love to gobble up the pieces (literally in some cases).
*****

Compared the United States to Thedas is just silly. The United States are united. Hence "United" States. Thedas isn't united and it was never meant to be. Texas and New York may have their differences, but they're identical twins compared to Orlais and Tevinter (despite both nations having such a love of oppression).

*****
“Sir, my concern is not whether [The Maker] is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on [The Maker]'s side, for [The Maker] is always right.” - What the Chant teaches and what the Templars do in its name are not at all similar.
*****

The Maker, if he exists, is by leaps and bounds the single most evil entity in Dragon Age. Regardless, people will twist religious doctrine, any religion's doctrine, to suit their own beliefs. And they'll truly believe that their interpretation is the correct one. It's human nature. And it will never change.

*****
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.” - Breaking down the current system will not bring freedom to the mages, only chaos to all, and resentment for centuries.
*****

I don't know how you even got such a meaning out of that. Oh, and Lincoln didn't say that.

*****
“I walk slowly, but I never walk backward” - It is best to embrace reasoned reform, not radical change.
*****

Civil liberties can be a slow process. Freedom is not. You're either free, or you aren't. There's no "slow" change to freedom. We're not talking about where one sits on a bus or what fountain they can use, we're talking about whether one is kidnapped by fanatics, even against royal edict, and held in guard by rapists and assorted sadists until such time as said fanatics decide that "omgz blud mage, kill it!".

*****
“Don't worry when you are not recognized, but strive to be worthy of recognition.” - Mages need to understand, if they want the rest of Thedas to grant them the freedoms the desire (and deserve) then they still have to prove themselves worthy of those freedoms.
*****

Bull****! People don't have to prove they "deserve" basic freedoms just because they were born different.

Bah. There's more, but I'm going to throw up if I have to dissect another Care Bears episode about love and friendship. Suffice to say, reality is far more unpleasant than you think it is.

[Xilizhra]

I detest the word "bro," but I suspect that if I didn't, I'd offer to brofist you at this point, Rifneno.

[General User]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
[quote]“Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves.” - Applies to both the Templars who oppress mages and mages who would do the same to Templars (and others) if they had the chance.[/quote]In the second case, only applicable to peace after the war is over. Before, all templars are enemy combatants and will be treated as such.[/quote]Of course.  Anyone who takes up arms can rightly be considered an enemy soldier.  It might seem like splitting hairs, but believe me, it's an important distinction, at least in the Western tradition.


[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
[quote]“I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends.” - To really want to resolve this conflict, each side needs to be willing to make friends of the other.[/quote]Usable for the Chantry, probably not many templars. My policy is to allow templars to defect, but loyalist templars must all be neutralized through one means or another.[/quote]Aye that's fair.  I'd actually say that the Templar Order as an organization has lost the right to exist simply by dint of their leaving the Chantry.


[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
[quote]“Whatever you are, [Mage or Templar] be a good one.” - There are good people on both sides who strive to live up to each side's more noble ideals. It's these people who can build a peace.[/quote]Defectors. No loyalist templar is a good person unless heavily indoctrinated. Of course, they can be redeemed thereafter, but I'm not sure if that's what you meant.[/quote]More or less.  I think anyone who is not wholly evil can be redeemed, and that many templars are not wholly evil.  Many are not evil at all only misguided.


[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
[quote]“Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.” - Some are born to adversity and only later acquire power, others are born with power and as a consequence face much adversity. We must weigh the character of each.[/quote]A test templars have utterly failed. We shall see what happens later on.[/quote]They have indeed.  Now it's the Mages turn to be tested.


[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
[quote]“[The Nations of Thedas] will never be destroyed from the outside. [But we just might] destroy ourselves.” - This conflict is tearing Thedas apart and there are any number of outsiders who would love to gobble up the pieces (literally in some cases).[/quote]A war prosecuted by the templars, and their choice from the beginning. Tell it to them.[/quote]I'm telling it to all of Thedas, because it concerns all of Thedas.


[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
[quote]“If you look for the bad in people expecting to find it, you surely will.” - Those good people who are on both sides? If you aren't looking you'll never find them.[/quote]Time to look is rather thin.[/quote]Well... just keep an open mind and an open heart.


[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
[quote]“Sir, my concern is not whether [The Maker] is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on [The Maker]'s side, for [The Maker] is always right.” - What the Chant teaches and what the Templars do in its name are not at all similar.[/quote]If the Maker really exists, he's an evil bastard and being against him is a good thing. Unless, by an exceedingly long shot, Leliana happens to be right.[/quote]Leliana's never steered me wrong before.


[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
[quote]“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.” - Breaking down the current system will not bring freedom to the mages, only chaos to all, and resentment for centuries.[/quote]Then build something later, but the current system must be utterly smashed. It'd be more accurate to say that you can't strengthen the weak by ONLY weakening the strong.[/quote]That's very true.  If real, lasting, positive change is going to come it's goint to take alot of work by alot of people.


[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
[quote]“I walk slowly, but I never walk backward” - It is best to embrace reasoned reform, not radical change.[/quote]Perhaps, but that's no longer an option.[/quote]You have a point.  I can only counter by saying that it's never a bad time for Reason.


[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
[quote]“Don't worry when you are not recognized, but strive to be worthy of recognition.” - Mages need to understand, if they want the rest of Thedas to grant them the freedoms the desire (and deserve) then they still have to prove themselves worthy of those freedoms.[/quote]This is likely folly, considering that too much of Thedas' population is idiotically superstitious. A majority cannot be used to determine rights alone.[/quote]I was thinking more along the lines of the nobility, clergy, and merchant/trades classes.


[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
[quote]“Be sure you put your feet in the right place, then stand firm.” - Don't compromise True Principles for either side for neither has yet proven to be worth it.[/quote]One has conclusively proven itself to not be.[/quote]Indeed.  Now we must see if the other does any better.


[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
[quote]“To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards out of men” - The mages have been horribly mistreated and oppressed. No good person should be silent or unmoved by this.[/quote]Thedas has rather few good people, regrettably.[/quote]Give them a honorable standard to rally around and you might be surprised how many there are.


[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
[quote] “Human action can be modified to some extent, but human nature cannot be changed.” - If the mages cast down a tyranny by adopting methods just as heinous all they'll do is raise another tyranny in its place. One that will be cast down itself in time.[/quote]Well, so long as it's not slavery, that'll be a step up.[/quote]It might be.


[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
[quote]“We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection." - We're all Thedans, we're all in this together…[/quote]One could say that, but you may as well say the same thing about us and the qunari, with us all being carbon-based life forms. It's a nice sentiment, and one I agree with, but used overly narrowly to want to end this war specifically.[/quote]We're all Thedans.  The things that unite us run so much deeper than the things that divide us.


[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
[quote]“A house divided against itself cannot stand.” - … and if we don't all stand together the Qunari, Darkspawn, and Magisters will take us down.[/quote]The magisters are more worried about the qunari, and hopefully they can keep each other occupied. If anything, we'll probably need their help.[/quote]And they'll be more than happy to provide it.  But beware!  The price for that aid may be more than you think!


[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
[quote]“I will prepare and some day my chance will come.” - No matter how it happened this is the mages moment. Will they answer the High Calling and prove worthy of this moment? Or will they degenerate into just another one of those gangs of atrocity-committing revolutionary thugs that litter the history books?[/quote]It's gone too far for something as dismissive as the second to be used.[/quote]I don't follow.


[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
[quote]“I have always found that mercy bears richer fruits that strict justice.” - Even if doing to the Templars things just as bad as some of them have done to mages was justice (and it isn't), it isn't going to win/earn the mages their freedom.[/quote]No, but the only thing that will is victory.[/quote]There are many paths to mage victory.  And there are many paths to mage freedom.  Some overlap, but not all.  Know what path you're on.

[Xilizhra]

Leliana's never steered me wrong before.

I don't know... I can't make policy decisions based on faith.

Give them a honorable standard to rally around and you might be surprised how many there are.

We shall see.

We're all Thedans. The things that unite us run so much deeper than the things that divide us.

Again true, but not especially true for Thedans.

I was thinking more along the lines of the nobility, clergy, and merchant/trades classes.

Yes, because those in power are always so eager to give the powerless power. If anything, the first two are the ones we'll need to rip it from. The third... maybe, but I have my doubts. This can't be a war where we rely on other people being open-minded and fair, because as a rule, they aren't.

I don't follow.

Not just another bunch of thugs. That's too dismissive of their effects.

[General User]

Rifneno wrote...
I rather doubt Lincoln was talking about enemies that want to imprison and abuse people because they think their god told them to. More likely he was talking about political enemies, or something of a similar mundane nature. Not people that are actively trying to kill him because someone he never met with a similar genetic trait did something bad.

Enemies who think they have the divine right to imprison and abuse other people and are actively trying to kill him.  That pretty much the CSA in a nutshell.  Lincoln still advocated reconciliation.

Rifneno wrote...
Compared the United States to Thedas is just silly. The United States are united. Hence "United" States. Thedas isn't united and it was never meant to be. Texas and New York may have their differences, but they're identical twins compared to Orlais and Tevinter (despite both nations having such a love of oppression).

Of course Thedas and the US are different in most every regard.  One of the exceptions is that if they tear themselves apart from within, they become vulnerable from without, in that regrad they are quite the same. 

Rifneno wrote...
The Maker, if he exists, is by leaps and bounds the single most evil entity in Dragon Age. Regardless, people will twist religious doctrine, any religion's doctrine, to suit their own beliefs. And they'll truly believe that their interpretation is the correct one. It's human nature. And it will never change.

You're only one step short of the truth: people will twist any doctrine to suit their own beliefs, political, religious, philosophical, even scientific.

Rifneno wrote...
I don't know how you even got such a meaning out of that. Oh, and Lincoln didn't say that.

You're right.  It's a quote popularly misattributed to Lincoln.  Thank you.

Rifneno wrote...
Civil liberties can be a slow process. Freedom is not. You're either free, or you aren't. There's no "slow" change to freedom. We're not talking about where one sits on a bus or what fountain they can use, we're talking about whether one is kidnapped by fanatics, even against royal edict, and held in guard by rapists and assorted sadists until such time as said fanatics decide that "omgz blud mage, kill it!".

Serfs in Europe, slaves in the Americas, peasants in East Asia.  For all of these groups the process of gaining freedom has taken centuries or even millennia and is still ongoing today.  You're flat out wrong: an oppressed people becoming free is almost always a slow process.  And a rocky one.  Some slower than need be, and some rockier. 

Rifneno wrote...
Bull****! People don't have to prove they "deserve" basic freedoms just because they were born different.

The mages do.  It's all part of the process.  Remember, mages are not a separate or distinct people, race, or nationality, they are an integral, even fundamental, component of every community in Thedas.  Those communities fear mages, and not without reason.  If mages are ever to be free to enjoy all the things non-mages enjoy from life, then they must integrate into the societies they were born into.  And to do that, they must both allay the legitimate fears of the public and disprove the illegitimate ones.  If it helps, think of it as educating the public by demonstration.

Rifneno wrote...
Bah. There's more, but I'm going to throw up if I have to dissect another Care Bears episode about love and friendship. Suffice to say, reality is far more unpleasant than you think it is.

That's very depressing because I think the world is a extraordinarily unpleasant place.

[Xilizhra]

Serfs in Europe, slaves in the Americas, peasants in East Asia. For all of these groups the process of gaining freedom has taken centuries or even millennia and is still ongoing today. You're flat out wrong: an oppressed people becoming free is almost always a slow process. And a rocky one. Some slower than need be, and some rockier.

This is no reason to allow it to be slow.

The mages do. It's all part of the process. Remember, mages are not a separate or distinct people, race, or nationality, they are an integral, even fundamental, component of every community in Thedas. Those communities fear mages, and not without reason. If mages are ever to be free to enjoy all the things non-mages enjoy from life, then they must integrate into the societies they were born into. And to do that, they must both allay the legitimate fears of the public and disprove the illegitimate ones. If it helps, think of it as educating the public by demonstration.

Whether they do or not, they shouldn't have to, and if the public demands it to be earned, they're in the wrong. If the mages need to do so anyway for practical reasons, it may regrettably be the case, but it's not moral to make them do so.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...
Yes, because those in power are always so eager to give the powerless power. If anything, the first two are the ones we'll need to rip it from. The third... maybe, but I have my doubts. This can't be a war where we rely on other people being open-minded and fair, because as a rule, they aren't.

You pretty much hit the bullseye.  Why not appeal to the better classes on the basis that those in power will not readily part with it?  

Think  about it.  There's at least one army of fanatics on the loose in Thedas with little if any worry about what they do or who they hurt.  Is putting another army of fanatics just on the opposite side really going to help anything?  Why not take Option C?  Serve in the armies of any Crowned head that will take them!   Given the role mages play in Thedan warfare, Kings and Queens'll be tripping over themselves to be first in line.  I ask, what if there was no "Mage Rebellion" but simply mages who wanted the same quality of life as everyone else and were willing to put themselves on the same battle lines as everyone else? 

It's easy to succumb to the more base instinct of "there's my enemy!  Attack!"  But don't do it!  In this case the high road and the low road do not lead to the same place.  If you want to fight for mage freedom the right way, you need to do it under the Crown's banner.

Xilizhra wrote...

This is no reason to allow it to be slow.

It's just that trying to do it too fast and things get real ugly real fast.

Xilizhra wrote...
Whether they do or not, they shouldn't have to, and if the public demands it to be earned, they're in the wrong. If the mages need to do so anyway for practical reasons, it may regrettably be the case, but it's not moral to make them do so.

I can agree with that.  Mages having to prove themselves to the general public is, for practical reasons, regrettable and but necessary .

Modifié par General User, 04 février 2012 - 05:55 .

[Xilizhra]

Think about it. There's at least one army of fanatics on the loose in Thedas with little if any worry about what they do or who they hurt. Is putting another army of fanatics just on the opposite side really going to help anything? Why not take Option C? Serve in the armies of any Crowned head that will take them! Given the role mages play in Thedan warfare, Kings and Queens'll be tripping over themselves to be first in line. I ask, what if there was no "Mage Rebellion" but simply mages who wanted the same quality of life as everyone else and were willing to put themselves on the same battle lines as everyone else?

I don't know if this rebellion should stop with the mages, to be honest. These crowns have been oppressing elves and frequently other humans for quite some time. If there should be any alliance, I'd like it to be with the elves, and if possible, downtrodden humans. Taking out the Orlesian government seems to be a generally good thing to do in any case.

It's just that trying to do it too fast and things get real ugly real fast.

It was ugly from the beginning and only got uglier with time, really.

[dragonflight288]

I don't know if this rebellion should stop with the mages, to be honest. These crowns have been oppressing elves and frequently other humans for quite some time. If there should be any alliance, I'd like it to be with the elves, and if possible, downtrodden humans. Taking out the Orlesian government seems to be a generally good thing to do in any case.

Not just the crowns. The quartermaster uses the switch on his servants. If you play the Cousland origin, that elf servant says she has a daughter and refuses to let her get it into her head that she can bee anything more than a servant. City Elves are just as prejudiced against themselves as humans. Zevran said it well.

They plant a giant tree to remind them of their heritage and then they ****** all over it. Lovely symbolism.

They call humans Shem, but have completely forgotten the meaning of the word. Shemlen is elvish for quickling and the Dalish called humans that because of their short lives. City Elves don't live longer than humans so they are shemlens too in that regard.

As for their being prejudiced against themselves. Play the City Elf origin. Almost all the elves have a problem with you by the time you get back there near the end of the game. If a member of their little society stands up for himself, the others do everything they can to drag him back down to their level. It's mostly out of fear that they'll all be punished by the lords, but their entire culture in the alienage is mostly about staying down, keeping a low profile, and being a servant to a human. That's the best they can be. Anyone who wants more than that is a troublemaker who needs to be put in his place.

@ General user.

Loved the list. I think it works well. A few months back I had a thread on advantages and disadvantages of mages and templars. The longer the war lasts, the more problems the templars will have. They have more military discipline and greater numbers. But if the Chantry controls the lyrium trade and the templars rebelled, the only way to get lyrium is by going back to the chantry, pillaging the countryside and other chantries so they can get it, or through smuggler. But no smuggling operation can supply any army for a long period of time. There will be thousands of men and women going through lyrium withdrawal, and will go insane or die.

Due to templar numbers and magic negating abilities, the mages best bet is to avoid any open conflicts. I said the mages should go underground and help the common man like Anders did for years. Swear fealty to a king or queen somewhere in exchange for protection from the templars, and mainly just stay out of the way. Give the templars enough time, they'll either go insane, go back to the Chantry in defeat, or make an enemy out of several nations and their citizens because of the pillaging and raping to gather supplies.

[CrimsonZephyr]

General User wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
I rather doubt Lincoln was talking about enemies that want to imprison and abuse people because they think their god told them to. More likely he was talking about political enemies, or something of a similar mundane nature. Not people that are actively trying to kill him because someone he never met with a similar genetic trait did something bad.

Enemies who think they have the divine right to imprison and abuse other people and are actively trying to kill him.  That pretty much the CSA in a nutshell.  Lincoln still advocated reconciliation.

He advocated reconcilliation after the Confederacy had been crushed to a fine pulp after Grant and Sherman had been done with them, you know, "fierce in battle, magnanimous in victory." He was pretty much cribbing Machiavelli here, by offering generous terms of reconciliation to utterly defeated enemies in order to renew trust. Lincoln did not offer terms of reconciliation in 1861, however, when the war was still starting and the Union's position was unclear. The mages will have to fight intelligently and pragmatically (this generally means not scorching the earth indiscriminately or using blood magic - a PR killer), but they will still have to fight.

The mages do have a chance to get some punches in on the Templars early on, but it won't be through "kill everything, burn everything" total war. It's be more along the lines of "exploit pre-existing tensions to create alliances," "create good PR," and "keep your army together at all costs." Going underground is actually a really, really terrible idea. It prevents ideological consistency (some groups will become crazy blood mages without a stern general on hand to give them a taste of the lash), prevents any kind of unified planning, and it makes creating a trained and veteran army an absolute nightmare. Guerrilla movements are actually a lot more organized than we give them credit for.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 04 février 2012 - 06:47 .

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

I detest the word "bro," but I suspect that if I didn't, I'd offer to brofist you at this point, Rifneno.

Right back atcha.

General User wrote...

More or less. I think anyone who is not wholly evil can be redeemed, and that many templars are not wholly evil. Many are not evil at all only misguided.

And if you try to "redeem" every enemy on the battlefield...

We're all Thedans. The things that unite us run so much deeper than the things that divide us.

So are darkspawn.

iOnlySignIn wrote...

I take your Abraham Lincoln, and give you my Mao Zedong:

...

... Seriously?

General User wrote...

Of course Thedas and the US are different in most every regard. One of the exceptions is that if they tear themselves apart from within, they become vulnerable from without, in that regrad they are quite the same.

What a greeting card... that's true of every group. And as big as you want to make the group. For example, if this was the Mass Effect board then the group would be every sentient thing that's not a Reaper. "We're all galactic citizens, we can't be divided when the enemy comes." So where do we draw the line? At some point, that arbitrary line HAS to be drawn for this "we have to be united for the greater threat" thing. You put Tevinter and the Qunari outside of the rest of Thedas it seems. And, obviously, the darkspawn. Why are those groups "out" and the rest "in"? You consider them a bigger threat than anything in the rest of Thedas? I don't. I consider the Chantry at least as big a problem as Tevinter.

Serfs in Europe, slaves in the Americas, peasants in East Asia. For all of these groups the process of gaining freedom has taken centuries or even millennia and is still ongoing today. You're flat out wrong: an oppressed people becoming free is almost always a slow process. And a rocky one. Some slower than need be, and some rockier.

Again. Freedom isn't the same as civil liberties. Similar, but not the same.

Think about it. There's at least one army of fanatics on the loose in Thedas with little if any worry about what they do or who they hurt. Is putting another army of fanatics just on the opposite side really going to help anything? Why not take Option C? Serve in the armies of any Crowned head that will take them! Given the role mages play in Thedan warfare, Kings and Queens'll be tripping over themselves to be first in line. I ask, what if there was no "Mage Rebellion" but simply mages who wanted the same quality of life as everyone else and were willing to put themselves on the same battle lines as everyone else?

It's easy to succumb to the more base instinct of "there's my enemy! Attack!" But don't do it! In this case the high road and the low road do not lead to the same place. If you want to fight for mage freedom the right way, you need to do it under the Crown's banner.

So your plan to avoid war involves joining the army. Are you sure you thought this all the way through?
I do agree that those roads lead to different places though. Your road leads to defeat. Not even in a Disney movie can you win again a more powerful army of zealous, drug-addled fascists by making friends and asking them nicely to stop raping you.

[Xilizhra]

And if you try to "redeem" every enemy on the battlefield...

Then you're, um, me, honestly. That's honestly what I'd love to do, if logistics allowed for it.

For example, if this was the Mass Effect board then the group would be every sentient thing that's not a Reaper. "We're all galactic citizens, we can't be divided when the enemy comes."

To be fair, that example makes perfect sense.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Then you're, um, me, honestly. That's honestly what I'd love to do, if logistics allowed for it.

Except by the addition of "if logistics allowed for it" you show more sense than all the people who seem to think that war is a criminal trial and only the guilty are punished.

To be fair, that example makes perfect sense.

Well, yeah. I just meant it in the sense of "why stop at just these few nations of Thedas for your 'we must band together' bit?"

[General User]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
He advocated reconcilliation after the Confederacy had been crushed to a fine pulp after Grant and Sherman had been done with them, you know, "fierce in battle, magnanimous in victory." He was pretty much cribbing Machiavelli here, by offering generous terms of reconciliation to utterly defeated enemies in order to renew trust. Lincoln did not offer terms of reconciliation in 1861, however, when the war was still starting and the Union's position was unclear. The mages will have to fight intelligently and pragmatically (this generally means not scorching the earth indiscriminately or using blood magic - a PR killer), but they will still have to fight.

The mages do have a chance to get some punches in on the Templars early on, but it won't be through "kill everything, burn everything" total war. It's be more along the lines of "exploit pre-existing tensions to create alliances," "create good PR," and "keep your army together at all costs." Going underground is actually a really, really terrible idea. It prevents ideological consistency (some groups will become crazy blood mages without a stern general on hand to give them a taste of the lash), prevents any kind of unified planning, and it makes creating a trained and veteran army an absolute nightmare. Guerrilla movements are actually a lot more organized than we give them credit for.

I think you have the right of it in a lot of ways.  But to me mages proving themselves to be a trustworthy lot is more than just PR, it's the truth.  Mages are as much a part of Thedas as anyone else.  So if it comes down to mages fighting for themselves, or fighting for Thedas as a whole, the choice should be obvious.

Rifneno wrote...
What a greeting card... that's true of every group. And as big as you want to make the group. For example, if this was the Mass Effect board then the group would be every sentient thing that's not a Reaper. "We're all galactic citizens, we can't be divided when the enemy comes."

Correct.

Rifneno wrote...
So where do we draw the line? At some point, that arbitrary line HAS to be drawn for this "we have to be united for the greater threat" thing. You put Tevinter and the Qunari outside of the rest of Thedas it seems. And, obviously, the darkspawn.  Why are those groups "out" and the rest "in"? You consider them a bigger threat than anything in the rest of Thedas? I don't. I consider the Chantry at least as big a problem as Tevinter.

The line is indeed arbitrary.  Where it is drawn and how thick is entirely dependent on the particular situation at hand.  For example, if the Qunari invade then common cause might be found with Tevinter, during a Blight common cause must be found with all.

Rifneno wrote...
So your plan to avoid war involves joining the army.  Are you sure you thought this all the way through?

I never had any plan to avoid war, for war is already upon us.  Don't confuse Peace with the philosophy of non-violence.  There is much wisdom to be found in non-violence, but if I were advocating such I would have chosen Martin Luther King  Jr. or Gandhi to quote.

Rifneno wrote...
I do agree that those roads lead to different places though. Your road leads to defeat. Not even in a Disney movie can you win again a more powerful army of zealous, drug-addled fascists by making friends and asking them nicely to stop raping you.

You're wrong for two reasons.  First, not all Templars are "zealous, drug-addled fascists", many are good, decent people doing what the genuinely believe (rightly or wrongly) is in the best interests of their communities and societies.  And second, different elements in a society coming together to put a stop to threats to that society (ie 'making friends') is an excellent course of action.  In this case that would mean the moderate elements of society uniting under the Crown against the extremists on both sides.

[dragonflight288]

Thrask was able to do the seemingly impossible task of getting templars and mages to work together for a common goal. Ousting Meredith. What went wrong there is one of the mages blamed Hawke for all her problems and threw everything the group stood for out the window.

It is possible for mages and templars to work together. Thrask proved it. He spent years going to mages and templars, one-by-one and convincing them they should work together. Aside from Grace, he actually succeeded. That proves not all templars are religious zealots.