90 réponses à ce sujet

[HiroVoid]

Plus, if you don't find them during that meeting, you'll probably have a hard time actually finding them all.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...
Nauseating, but hardly surprising. Luckily, there isn't a single nation of people the templars are obliged to for the mages to avenge themselves upon.
Also luckily, weapons plants and research don't seem to be in much use lately in this. Though then we get into the murkier business of things like food production.

Not surprising, no. Such has happened many times that we know of, and doubtlessly many more in times our records are sketchy about. Far worse has happened too, and again many times. I suppose my point was that I wouldn't judge some degree of ruthless tactics in war, but there must always be a strategic reason behind them and one must be reasonably certain that the benefit will clearly outweigh the cost. Wanton destruction is never to be allowed.

For example. As iOnlySignIn said, Genghis Khan was a strategic genius. One of his tactics was to tell the enemy that if they don't surrender, they'll slaughter everyone. Everyone. And they did. Word quickly got around that they follow through on that threat and suddenly places were surrendering to them without a fight when they certainly would have before. A soldier may be willing to give his life to defend his homeland, but is he willing to give his family's lives? Not often. I don't really remember enough of history to recall if this tactic is believed to have saved lives overall so I wouldn't really give it a stamp of approval, but it's a good example of tactical ruthlessness rather than wanton destruction.

As for the weapons plants vs. food production, I figured we were still talking about the ****s. I know the word is censored (yet oddly, Hitler isn't) but I figured everyone knew what it was. Weapons plants don't really apply to Thedas, no. I wouldn't destroy food production. There's a difference between them. ... You can't poison your enemy's weapons supply.

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Why not? Genghis Khan was a brilliant strategist. He's actually not nearly as bloody as his reputation (a reputation he worked hard at building) suggests.

Because then I have to defend it. Which is neigh impossible for the same reason that these debates almost never change anyone's minds; the human mind isn't programmed to question its own beliefs when presented with contrary views or evidence, it's programmed to skip right to defending its stance the best it can. When there's plenty of people on both sides of the fence then it can be interesting. But when the great majority feels differently it's like banging your head against a brick wall. All you end up with is a headache and everyone who saw it thinks you're an idiot. Even if you aren't.
Honestly, I probably shouldn't have even wrote that example I gave to Xilizhra. But there's an old saying... "Aw, screw it."

Actually, you can argue the Blood Mage pratice of summoning demons and corpses to fight for them is a valid form of psychological warfare. The problem is that the Templars have specifically trained to become immune to it. Perhaps that is why Tarohne started possessing Templars? Such a shame that she had to become insane in the process.

Tarohne is a good example for someone who needs to learn from Mao's mantra about how the Revolutionary must work with the People.

It still might have worked for her if she didn't encounter a plot armored player character. Imagine if all the templars were as paranoid of each other as Meredith was. They'd all be pointing fingers at one another once they realized that some of them were possessed. Then the few that really were possessed could stir the pot until it boiled over.
She really should've put a demon in Alrik and Karras. Probably would've improved those two.

Lord Aesir wrote...

So I'm seeing a lot of judging medieval rulers and government by twentieth century standards in this thread...

Ugh, this old hat again? Okay, let's try this one out...

Who's to say Thedas' medieval times would've had the same moral standards as ours? Remember Chaos Theory? Butterfly flaps its wings and creates a hurricane across the world? Basically that any number of seemingly tiny changes have drastic effects on the future. Example. Some Hungarian hits their head in 1897 and gets a bad goose egg. Not very in the mood that night, they never have a son that grows up to be a crucial physicist in early nuclear technology. The atomic bomb isn't invented and subsequently used on Japan. The US instead goes ahead with the appropriately named Operation Downfall, a full scale invasion of Japan. Two of the most important countries in the modern world would've spent many more years murdering each other, exhausting their resources and greatly altering the world financially, technologically, perhaps even politically. The USSR might still be around, hell they might rule the world. All because somebody tripped and hit their head.
Now imagine the initial change is far more drastic. Different people, different atmosphere, different world, existance of magic, extra races, another dimension, hateful dragon gods, ect. ect. Now do you really think that world's society would have evolved in the exact same way as ours? No!

HiroVoid wrote...

Oh you will take that back or I'll take you down like those racist bastards that were going to rat out my clan's location at the beginning of Origins!

Sorry, what was that? I couldn't hear over the sound of being screamed racial slurs (Shem!) and arrows being fired at me for having rounded ears.

Edited for: Always prooofread to avoid stuoid mistakes!

Modifié par Rifneno, 05 février 2012 - 07:31 .

[Xilizhra]

As a city elf, you are the best the alienage has to offer. But you can't help the alienage because they don't want to help themselves. They would prefer to live in squalor rather than risk getting on the bad side of humans. You can't help someone who refuses to help himself.

Then... well, there's always the Anders solution, i.e. make it so they have to help themselves or die. I'd actually argue it's more justified for elves, because mages don't reproduce as a rule, so by not helping themselves, they're mostly only hurting themselves; bad, but not necessarily immoral as such. Elves, however, are hurting their children with this attitude.

As for the Dalish, they are disorganized clans who only meet roughly a decade or so. If you can get an alliance with one clan, that's great, but it won't count for all the Dalish. Some Dalish would rather avoid the war entirely because it is fought by shemlen. No other reason needed. Let them fight and kill each other.

If the next meeting is soon, one alliance might translate into several.

[Heimdall]

Rifneno wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

So I'm seeing a lot of judging medieval rulers and government by twentieth century standards in this thread...

Ugh, this old hat again? Okay, let's try this one out...

Who's to say Thedas' medieval times would've had the same moral standards as ours? Remember Chaos Theory? Butterfly flaps its wings and creates a hurricane across the world? Basically that any number of seemingly tiny changes have drastic effects on the future. Example. Some Hungarian hits their head in 1897 and gets a bad goose egg. Not very in the mood that night, they never have a son that grows up to be a crucial physicist in early nuclear technology. The atomic bomb isn't invented and subsequently used on Japan. The US instead goes ahead with the appropriately named Operation Downfall, a full scale invasion of Japan. Two of the most important countries in the modern world would've spent many more years murdering each other, exhausting their resources and greatly altering the world financially, technologically, perhaps even politically. The USSR might still be around, hell they might rule the world. All because somebody tripped and hit their head.
Now imagine the initial change is far more drastic. Different people, different atmosphere, different world, existance of magic, extra races, another dimension, hateful dragon gods, ect. ect. Now do you really think that world's society would have evolved in the exact same way as ours? No!

Okay...  What does any of this have to do with anything?

[Xilizhra]

Nothing, which is just as much as your statement has to do with it.

[General User]

Every generation sees with what it believes to be perfect clarity the flaws and failings of previous ages yet remains myopic to its own.

Mark my words, a time will come when our "modern" values and sensibilities will be held in absolute contempt by most of the human race.

If you want to be truly vindicated by history then you must embrace those better angels of our nature which are truly eternal. Like Abraham Lincoln did.

Modifié par General User, 05 février 2012 - 03:13 .

[Rifneno]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Okay...  What does any of this have to do with anything?

I don't know how to put it any clearer than I did the first time.  Thedas evolved differently, so their society isn't guaranteed it even likely to have the same moral values as ours did at the same age.  Seems simple.

[Wulfram]

Xilizhra wrote...

Then... well, there's always the Anders solution, i.e. make it so they have to help themselves or die. I'd actually argue it's more justified for elves, because mages don't reproduce as a rule, so by not helping themselves, they're mostly only hurting themselves; bad, but not necessarily immoral as such. Elves, however, are hurting their children with this attitude.

How would being slaughtered by humans be good for the elves children?

[Xilizhra]

Wulfram wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Then... well, there's always the Anders solution, i.e. make it so they have to help themselves or die. I'd actually argue it's more justified for elves, because mages don't reproduce as a rule, so by not helping themselves, they're mostly only hurting themselves; bad, but not necessarily immoral as such. Elves, however, are hurting their children with this attitude.

How would being slaughtered by humans be good for the elves children?

Admittedly, this sort of thing is contingent on winning.

[Heimdall]

Rifneno wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Okay...  What does any of this have to do with anything?

I don't know how to put it any clearer than I did the first time.  Thedas evolved differently, so their society isn't guaranteed it even likely to have the same moral values as ours did at the same age.  Seems simple.

Then why is everyone on this thread applying our standards to it?

[Dave of Canada]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Then why is everyone on this thread applying our standards to it?

They love imagining their character as being wiser than everybody else, noticing the wrongs that everybody else in the universe is commiting and wanting to build a world with modern ethics because it's the only way for it to be correct.

[Heimdall]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Then why is everyone on this thread applying our standards to it?

They love imagining their character as being wiser than everybody else, noticing the wrongs that everybody else in the universe is commiting and wanting to build a world with modern ethics because it's the only way for it to be correct.

I see...

I suppose I'll just take my leave then... <_<

[Rifneno]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Then why is everyone on this thread applying our standards to it?

Okay, that was my fault for trying to reason with someone that clearly just wants to complain about everyone else not RPing hard enough for them.

[Heimdall]

Rifneno wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Then why is everyone on this thread applying our standards to it?

Okay, that was my fault for trying to reason with someone that clearly just wants to complain about everyone else not RPing hard enough for them.

I'm more confused about how it seems logical to try and shoehorn modern ethics into a world unlike our modern society.

[Xilizhra]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Then why is everyone on this thread applying our standards to it?

Okay, that was my fault for trying to reason with someone that clearly just wants to complain about everyone else not RPing hard enough for them.

I'm more confused about how it seems logical to try and shoehorn modern ethics into a world unlike our modern society.

Again, nothing that's being said here can't be expressed by the PC or hasn't been expressed by someone.

[Rifneno]

I swear, it's like arguing with an echo...

[Heimdall]

Rifneno wrote...

I swear, it's like arguing with an echo...

I'm not even arguing.  I've only asked questions.

[Heimdall]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Then why is everyone on this thread applying our standards to it?

Okay, that was my fault for trying to reason with someone that clearly just wants to complain about everyone else not RPing hard enough for them.

I'm more confused about how it seems logical to try and shoehorn modern ethics into a world unlike our modern society.

Again, nothing that's being said here can't be expressed by the PC or hasn't been expressed by someone.

I don't actually recall being able to express anti monarchic system sentiments or discuss the use of blood magic and demons as phsycological warfare.

[Rifneno]

Lord Aesir wrote...
I'm not even arguing.  I've only asked questions. 

No, you're passive-aggressively asking mock questions (really just the same one again and again) you already know the answer to.  You know perfectly well why people are applying modern standards to it.  Anyone smart enough to even notice that the posters here are applying more advanced ethics than most of Thedas is definitely smart enough to know that a) most people don't roleplay to that extent, we're not in-character on the forums, c) things like rape instill an emotional response in almost anyone that doesn't result in a detached "well, it's just the age, he didn't know any better."  More reasons I'm sure, but just off the top of my head and I wouldn't be surprised if there was more right off the top of yours.

[Heimdall]

Rifneno wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
I'm not even arguing.  I've only asked questions. 

No, you're passive-aggressively asking mock questions (really just the same one again and again) you already know the answer to.  You know perfectly well why people are applying modern standards to it.  Anyone smart enough to even notice that the posters here are applying more advanced ethics than most of Thedas is definitely smart enough to know that a) most people don't roleplay to that extent, we're not in-character on the forums, c) things like rape instill an emotional response in almost anyone that doesn't result in a detached "well, it's just the age, he didn't know any better."  More reasons I'm sure, but just off the top of my head and I wouldn't be surprised if there was more right off the top of yours.

I know you're not roleplaying to that extent.  I just don't understand why you think it makes sense to apply such ethics and you have attacked me for trying to understand.  I'm not being passive aggressive.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 05 février 2012 - 10:32 .

[Lazy Jer]

No...absolutely not. I am NOT getting drawn into another Mage-Templar debate.

[Heimdall]

This is a mage-templar debate?!

[Cody]

dragonflight288 wrote...

As for their being prejudiced
against themselves. Play the City Elf origin. Almost all the elves have a
problem with you by the time you get back there near the end of the
game. If a member of their little society stands up for himself, the
others do everything they can to drag him back down to their level. 

Not really. They blamed both him/her and Soris for the
raid on their Alienage. And seeing that it technically was because of
them that the raid happened in the first place it is somewhat
justified(even though Soris and the Warden did it to save Shianni the
deed itself was still what caused the attack in the first place).

dragonflight288 wrote...
You should consider that only the Qunari and the Darkspawn don't really have any king or crowned ruler at all. You would essentially be destroying every form of government throughout Thedas. (Tevinter may not have Kings but they have Archons which is almost the same thing.)

Arishock is the leader of the Qunari while the Archdemon is technically the leader of the darkspawn to a point. When the Archdemon is gone the Darkspawn are in dissary and return underground. Only broodmothers or Darkspawn like the Architect can still lead them. But not at the same mass that an Archdemon can.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 06 février 2012 - 08:46 .

[Lazy Jer]

Lord Aesir wrote...

This is a mage-templar debate?!

It will be.

[Heimdall]

CodyMelch wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

As for their being prejudiced
against themselves. Play the City Elf origin. Almost all the elves have a
problem with you by the time you get back there near the end of the
game. If a member of their little society stands up for himself, the
others do everything they can to drag him back down to their level. 

Not really. They blamed both him/her and Soris for the
raid on their Alienage. And seeing that it technically was because of
them that the raid happened in the first place you it somewhat
justified(even though Soris and the Warden did it to save Shianni the
deed itself was still what caused the attack in the first place).

dragonflight288 wrote...
You should consider that only the Qunari and the Darkspawn don't really have any king or crowned ruler at all. You would essentially be destroying every form of government throughout Thedas. (Tevinter may not have Kings but they have Archons which is almost the same thing.)

Arishock is the leader of the Qunari while the Archdemon is technically the leader of the darkspawn to a point. When the Archdemon is gone the Darkspawn are in dissary and return underground. Only broodmothers or Darkspawn like the Architect can still lead them. But not at the same mass that an Archdemon can.

I thought the Arishok was only the leader of the armed forces.