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[eye basher]

So what the haters here are saying is because yet again is not what THEY want is wrong well at least the consistent.

[Bad King]

SkyJackal wrote...

Bad King wrote...

And why would the protheans show images of earlier alien races being wiped out? The beacons were meant to be a way of connecting with other protheans, it simply doesn't make sense that they'd show some earlier race being wiped out and not themselves.

Makes perfect sense to me. They were on Illos researching the ruins of an ancient race that came before them (not unlike human researching Protheans) and they discovered that they were wiped out by the Reapers (not unlike Shepard figuring out the beacons). They send a message depicting the events through the beacons as a warning (not unlike news reports on Earth of the reaper invasion).

And then they show this 'ancient race that came before them' being transformed into collectors.

[Matt251287]

seven324 wrote...

It is not a retcon. They are just to assumed  to be Protheans, the Eden Prime beacon was incomplete and corrupted. The Protheans
were not the only race wiped out by the Reapers - the ones seen in the
Beacon vision were another race being wiped out.

If it had outright stated that they were Protheans, then yes, it would be a Retcon. But all the sources saying they are Prothean are not facts - Statues are only assumed to be Prothean, the Beacon was broken, the Codex is from an in-universe perspective and get's things wrong (Such as how it says Sovereign is a Geth ship). Bioware has never said they were Protheans, therefore  not a retcon.

Beacon is comfirmed to be Prothean by Vigil who was made by Protheans.

Beacon vision indeed currupted, Cipher from Thorian who knew Protheans fixes it.

Vision depicts Protheans.

Vision altered in ME2.

Therefore retcon.

Wild speculation about Ilos cannot undo the above,

Why are you finding this so dificult?

[seven324]

Bad King wrote...

seven324 wrote...

It is not a retcon. They are just to assumed  to be Protheans, the Eden Prime beacon was incomplete and corrupted. The Protheans
were not the only race wiped out by the Reapers - the ones seen in the
Beacon vision were another race being wiped out.

If it had outright stated that they were Protheans, then yes, it would be a Retcon. But all the sources saying they are Prothean are not facts - Statues are only assumed to be Prothean, the Beacon was broken, the Codex is from an in-universe perspective and get's things wrong (Such as how it says Sovereign is a Geth ship). Bioware has never said they were Protheans, therefore  not a retcon.

As for Shephard not knowing about the collectors, what we saw was the same as what he saw. Shephard just thought because it was a Prothean beacon, they must be Prothean. It means nothing - he didn't even know the Collectors existed, the Beacon doesn't show them.

It wasn't only the Eden Prime beacon which showed the protheans as being squidlike- see also the ones on Ilos and Joab. We even see from the beacon on Joab the squidlike protheans being transformed into the collectors (this was likely the interpretation of the protheans of what was happening to members of their species- it shows that the squidlike aliens were indeed protheans). And why would the protheans show images of earlier alien races being wiped out? The beacons were meant to be a way of connecting with other protheans, it simply doesn't make sense that they'd show some earlier race being wiped out and not themselves.

So it is a hard retcon, and even if you were correct, it would still be a retcon (albeit a soft one).

There were other races in the Galaxy who would of been wiped out at the same time. A retcon is when one thing which is confirmed to be a certain way is then changed to something different. Bioware has never said they were Protheans, that means it is not a retcon.

As for showing images of earlier races being wiped out, it makes complete sense. While beacons were meant for connecting with other Protheans, they were
adapated to give a warning for any survivors of the Reapers. If they are trying to show a message of the Reapers appearing in cycles to wipe out all advanced species, they would of shown as many races as they could.    Besiders, how were the Ilos scientists going to show Protheans being wiped out? They had been on the planet the whole time because of the Conduit, and the reapers had not been there.

The other beacons are more complete - they show the mostly the same thing, but with a few added parts. The Joab beacon does not show the squid-like aliens becoming Collectors. It just shows Collectors.

Matt251287 wrote...

seven324 wrote...

It is
not a retcon. They are just to assumed  to be Protheans, the Eden Prime
beacon was incomplete and corrupted. The Protheans
were not the only race wiped out by the Reapers - the ones seen in the
Beacon vision were another race being wiped out.

If
it had outright stated that they were Protheans, then yes, it would be a
Retcon. But all the sources saying they are Prothean are not facts -
Statues are only assumed to be Prothean, the Beacon was broken, the
Codex is from an in-universe perspective and get's things wrong (Such as
how it says Sovereign is a Geth ship). Bioware has never said they were
Protheans, therefore  not a retcon.

Beacon is comfirmed to be Prothean by Vigil who was made by Protheans.

Beacon vision indeed currupted, Cipher from Thorian who knew Protheans fixes it.

Vision depicts Protheans.

Vision altered in ME2.

Therefore retcon.

Wild speculation about Ilos cannot undo the above,

Why are you finding this so dificult?

Vision is never outright said to depict Protheans, other than speculation. The vision in ME2 was not a Retcon - if it had replaced the Squid-like Aliens with Collector-like Protheans, that would of been a retcon. Why is that so difficult to understand?

Modifié par seven324, 05 février 2012 - 02:43 .

[Matt251287]

seven324 wrote...

Vision is never outright said to depict Protheans, other than speculation. The vision in ME2 was not a Retcon - if it had replaced the Squid-like Aliens with Collector-like Protheans, that would of been a retcon. Why is that so difficult to understand?

It does replace the squid-like Aliens.....
 
 
 
 
And no, you are right, no-one says that the Prothean vision, in the Prothean beacon, sent accross the Prothean empire depicts Protheans

Pretty ******* reasonable assumption though isn't it mate?

[seven324]

Matt251287 wrote...

seven324 wrote...

Vision is never outright said to depict Protheans, other than speculation. The vision in ME2 was not a Retcon - if it had replaced the Squid-like Aliens with Collector-like Protheans, that would of been a retcon. Why is that so difficult to understand?

It does replace the squid-like Aliens.....
 
 
 
 
And no, you are right, no-one says that the Prothean vision, in the Prothean beacon, sent accross the Prothean empire depicts Protheans

Pretty ******* reasonable assumption though isn't it mate?

Oh, look - the squid-like aliens are still there.

Well done for figuring out that the Beacon was made by the Protheans. Doesn't change the fact no where says it is actual Protheans in the vision.

Besides, we don't even know if the Collector-like Prothean is even a real Prothean - it could be a Reaper agent.

[Matt251287]

seven324 wrote...



Oh, look - the squid-like aliens are still there.

Well done for figuring out that the Beacon was made by the Protheans. Doesn't change the fact no where says it is actual Protheans in the vision.

Besides, we don't even know if the Collector-like Prothean is even a real Prothean - it could be a Reaper agent.

Okay so there's a new scene with a collector pasted over the squid-alien amongst the original scenes of the squid-aliens, the distinction you've made is barely any different from what i said in the first place, are we clutching at straws here?

It would make more sense if the second vision was supposed to convey the original protheans being turned into the collectors (in which case squid-aliens are still protheans).
 
 
 
I've already said that you are correct in saying there is no elicit text stating that the squid-aliens in the prothean vision are protheans, you have that shred of evidence against the mounting obvious.

Modifié par Matt251287, 05 février 2012 - 03:03 .

[Elvis_Mazur]

One of the devs, in the second DVD of the platinum edition of the first Mass Effect, said these words while referring to Ilos: "The Prothean homeworld." Clearly, if the Prothean empire was composed of multiple races, he wouldn't have said that. It clearly states that the Protheans were only one race.


I guess they couldn't put in the game a Prothean like one of those statues because they simply don't fit in the type of combat present in the game.

Shame on you for retcons, Bioware!

But, isn't the Prothy totally optional? Isn't he a DLC character? If so, I can ignore him and act like if he never existed.

[GnusmasTHX]

You guys who are arguing the vision are so dense.

"Derp, I need BW to spell everything out, draw me a picture and then burn the facts into my forearms, derp." No, it's not in text that the statues on Ilos are Prothean but seriously...

A little actual thinking on your part, maybe. Even children can play "connect the dots"

The Protheans were originally (development wise) the statues on Ilos. Fact. BioWare is Retconning it so they can have the Prothean squadmate to look like a Collector.

Retroactive Continuity does NOT preclude "explaination" in the new contuinity. Regardless of the reasons BW comes up with, it wil still be a retcon.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 05 février 2012 - 03:34 .

[Someone With Mass]

Because there's apparently no such thing as another race that lived and traveled in space long before the Protheans did that might have built those statues, or that the statues were constructed from a abstract viewpoint, as most art on Earth.

Not to mention the possibility that Shepard could have just seen a part of the vision instead of the whole thing, as the beacon exploded in his face. Even then, I doubt that the distorted vision was supposed to present any hard facts.

It'd be like me saying:

"This must be a batarian, because I think the image implies it, and anything BioWare says about it from here on is a retcon".

[GnusmasTHX]

I think you have enough straws.

[Ahglock]

seven324 wrote...

Vision is never outright said to depict Protheans, other than speculation. The vision in ME2 was not a Retcon - if it had replaced the Squid-like Aliens with Collector-like Protheans, that would of been a retcon. Why is that so difficult to understand?

Under the rules people like you are laying down there is no such thing as a ret con.  Even if they outright tell you it is protheans, people will say well there is nothing saying the source can't be wrong therefore it is not a retcon.  None of the classic comic retcons are retcons by this logic., they never outright said this is the real jean grey who died, it was totally the phoenex who created a clone body to inhabit.  This was a retcon not a big one but it was one, the protheons were mind flayers, now they are bugs.  Retcons don't = bad, they just mean you changed =some things lots of times to make it better.  

[Bad King]

seven324 wrote...

Bad King wrote...

seven324 wrote...

It is not a retcon. They are just to assumed  to be Protheans, the Eden Prime beacon was incomplete and corrupted. The Protheans
were not the only race wiped out by the Reapers - the ones seen in the
Beacon vision were another race being wiped out.

If it had outright stated that they were Protheans, then yes, it would be a Retcon. But all the sources saying they are Prothean are not facts - Statues are only assumed to be Prothean, the Beacon was broken, the Codex is from an in-universe perspective and get's things wrong (Such as how it says Sovereign is a Geth ship). Bioware has never said they were Protheans, therefore  not a retcon.

As for Shephard not knowing about the collectors, what we saw was the same as what he saw. Shephard just thought because it was a Prothean beacon, they must be Prothean. It means nothing - he didn't even know the Collectors existed, the Beacon doesn't show them.

It wasn't only the Eden Prime beacon which showed the protheans as being squidlike- see also the ones on Ilos and Joab. We even see from the beacon on Joab the squidlike protheans being transformed into the collectors (this was likely the interpretation of the protheans of what was happening to members of their species- it shows that the squidlike aliens were indeed protheans). And why would the protheans show images of earlier alien races being wiped out? The beacons were meant to be a way of connecting with other protheans, it simply doesn't make sense that they'd show some earlier race being wiped out and not themselves.

So it is a hard retcon, and even if you were correct, it would still be a retcon (albeit a soft one).

There were other races in the Galaxy who would of been wiped out at the same time. A retcon is when one thing which is confirmed to be a certain way is then changed to something different. Bioware has never said they were Protheans, that means it is not a retcon.

As for showing images of earlier races being wiped out, it makes complete sense. While beacons were meant for connecting with other Protheans, they were
adapated to give a warning for any survivors of the Reapers. If they are trying to show a message of the Reapers appearing in cycles to wipe out all advanced species, they would of shown as many races as they could.    Besiders, how were the Ilos scientists going to show Protheans being wiped out? They had been on the planet the whole time because of the Conduit, and the reapers had not been there.

The other beacons are more complete - they show the mostly the same thing, but with a few added parts. The Joab beacon does not show the squid-like aliens becoming Collectors. It just shows Collectors.

Vision is never outright said to depict Protheans, other than speculation. The vision in ME2 was not a Retcon - if it had replaced the Squid-like Aliens with Collector-like Protheans, that would of been a retcon. Why is that so difficult to understand?

Here is a definition of a retcon- encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Retroactive+continuity (but I like to use the term 'soft retcon' to refer to this particular definition). BioWare don't have to have said that they were protheans for it to be a retcon. But the fact is, they do- the vision on Joab does show a transformation see here. The fact that ME2 confirmed that protheans were transformed into collectors proves that the squidlike creatures in the visions were indeed protheans. Claiming 'they might have been other races' is very nitpicky and obviously not what BioWare had planned at the time- this would be a soft retcon. But the vision on Joab (which confirms the squidlike creatures to be protheans) makes it a hard retcon.

Modifié par Bad King, 05 février 2012 - 05:06 .

[string3r]

Jellyfish.

[SkyJackal]

Nowhere in the ME2 visions do they show the figures from the ME1 vision transforming. It shows the old image photoshopped with a collector on top. If anything it retcons the original image. Such that, in the eyes of the revised canon, the original version of that image didn't exist, thus, no transformation. Is it so hard to believe that the illos visions show the old race as a warning and they included an image of themselves to imply a similar fate awaiting them?

[SkyJackal]

btw, I'm not denying that bioware probably intended the statues to be protheans but the fact is that truth was never established so it wasn't part of the continuity and thus couldn't be "changed", merely explained. If the explanation leads to a different conclusion than was originally envisioned by the developers it doesn't make it a retcon. Saren was originally a priest, is the fact he was a soldier when it was explained to us make it a retcon or just a creative decision?

Modifié par SkyJackal, 05 février 2012 - 06:54 .

[Candidate 88766]

PetrySilva wrote...

One of the devs, in the second DVD of the platinum edition of the first Mass Effect, said these words while referring to Ilos: "The Prothean homeworld." Clearly, if the Prothean empire was composed of multiple races, he wouldn't have said that. It clearly states that the Protheans were only one race.


I guess they couldn't put in the game a Prothean like one of those statues because they simply don't fit in the type of combat present in the game.

Shame on you for retcons, Bioware!

But, isn't the Prothy totally optional? Isn't he a DLC character? If so, I can ignore him and act like if he never existed.

It clearly isn't the Prothean homeworld because there were no records of its existance in the Citadel, or on any other Prothean world the Reapers attacked. If it was their homeworld, there would be information about it somewhere, and the Reapers would have attacked Illos.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 05 février 2012 - 06:54 .

[Candidate 88766]

At the end of the day, its pretty obvious that Bioware originally intended the statues to reflect the Protheans' appearance. However, given that we never really got a good look at them, and the Prothean provides pretty good reasons in ME3, it is kind of irrelevant.

People just seem to be complaining purely because it is a retcon, not because it actually means anything. Given that we've only had glimpses of their appearance, changing the Protheans' appearance is a pretty minor thing to get worked up about. Its not going to change. If they'd retconned a major bit of lore then it would be understandable, but this is very minor. Maybe Bioware just couldn't convincingly model a human-sized character with tentacles on their face.

[SkyJackal]

BSN moan about something minor? Never.

[Someone With Mass]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

At the end of the day, its pretty obvious that Bioware originally intended the statues to reflect the Protheans' appearance. However, given that we never really got a good look at them, and the Prothean provides pretty good reasons in ME3, it is kind of irrelevant.

People just seem to be complaining purely because it is a retcon, not because it actually means anything. Given that we've only had glimpses of their appearance, changing the Protheans' appearance is a pretty minor thing to get worked up about. Its not going to change. If they'd retconned a major bit of lore then it would be understandable, but this is very minor. Maybe Bioware just couldn't convincingly model a human-sized character with tentacles on their face.

Not to mention that it'd be a little difficult to animate something like that.

And the fact that I'd find it pretty hard to take a small size Cthulhu-human...thing seriously.

[Poison_Berrie]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

People just seem to be complaining purely because it is a retcon, not because it actually means anything. Given that we've only had glimpses of their appearance, changing the Protheans' appearance is a pretty minor thing to get worked up about. Its not going to change. If they'd retconned a major bit of lore then it would be understandable, but this is very minor. Maybe Bioware just couldn't convincingly model a human-sized character with tentacles on their face.

Though I agree it's a relatively minor thing to get worked up about, I do find it a bit dissapointing.
For one I always dug the Cthulhu-like appearance and found it a nice way of using an appearance that's usually reserved as antagonistic.
Secondly it made the transition from Prothean to Collector all the more a major modification. That these people had been, over time, completely transformed from what they started out as.
As it stands now the change between Prothean and Collector has become minor.

With some explaining this retcon can easily be made to fit the story, though so I'll wait and see. But I was looking forward to conversing with a Cthulhu look-a-like.

[didymos1120]

Poison_Berrie wrote...


As it stands now the change between Prothean and Collector has become minor.

It's still pretty major.  Yes, the basic shape of the head and the eye number are retained, but the skin is completely different, having been replaced with that thick chitin, the eyes are of a different type that lack pupils, the nose and mouth are gone, wings were added, there are additional small limbs on the torso, etc.  And that's not counting the Collector General, who is drastically different.

[seven324]

Bad King wrote...

seven324 wrote...

Bad King wrote...

seven324 wrote...

It is not a retcon. They are just to assumed  to be Protheans, the Eden Prime beacon was incomplete and corrupted. The Protheans
were not the only race wiped out by the Reapers - the ones seen in the
Beacon vision were another race being wiped out.

If it had outright stated that they were Protheans, then yes, it would be a Retcon. But all the sources saying they are Prothean are not facts - Statues are only assumed to be Prothean, the Beacon was broken, the Codex is from an in-universe perspective and get's things wrong (Such as how it says Sovereign is a Geth ship). Bioware has never said they were Protheans, therefore  not a retcon.

As for Shephard not knowing about the collectors, what we saw was the same as what he saw. Shephard just thought because it was a Prothean beacon, they must be Prothean. It means nothing - he didn't even know the Collectors existed, the Beacon doesn't show them.

It wasn't only the Eden Prime beacon which showed the protheans as being squidlike- see also the ones on Ilos and Joab. We even see from the beacon on Joab the squidlike protheans being transformed into the collectors (this was likely the interpretation of the protheans of what was happening to members of their species- it shows that the squidlike aliens were indeed protheans). And why would the protheans show images of earlier alien races being wiped out? The beacons were meant to be a way of connecting with other protheans, it simply doesn't make sense that they'd show some earlier race being wiped out and not themselves.

So it is a hard retcon, and even if you were correct, it would still be a retcon (albeit a soft one).

There were other races in the Galaxy who would of been wiped out at the same time. A retcon is when one thing which is confirmed to be a certain way is then changed to something different. Bioware has never said they were Protheans, that means it is not a retcon.

As for showing images of earlier races being wiped out, it makes complete sense. While beacons were meant for connecting with other Protheans, they were
adapated to give a warning for any survivors of the Reapers. If they are trying to show a message of the Reapers appearing in cycles to wipe out all advanced species, they would of shown as many races as they could.    Besiders, how were the Ilos scientists going to show Protheans being wiped out? They had been on the planet the whole time because of the Conduit, and the reapers had not been there.

The other beacons are more complete - they show the mostly the same thing, but with a few added parts. The Joab beacon does not show the squid-like aliens becoming Collectors. It just shows Collectors.

Vision is never outright said to depict Protheans, other than speculation. The vision in ME2 was not a Retcon - if it had replaced the Squid-like Aliens with Collector-like Protheans, that would of been a retcon. Why is that so difficult to understand?

Here is a definition of a retcon- encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Retroactive+continuity (but I like to use the term 'soft retcon' to refer to this particular definition). BioWare don't have to have said that they were protheans for it to be a retcon. But the fact is, they do- the vision on Joab does show a transformation see here. The fact that ME2 confirmed that protheans were transformed into collectors proves that the squidlike creatures in the visions were indeed protheans. Claiming 'they might have been other races' is very nitpicky and obviously not what BioWare had planned at the time- this would be a soft retcon. But the vision on Joab (which confirms the squidlike creatures to be protheans) makes it a hard retcon.

Ok now i see what you mean, thanks for that pic - never seen it before. Seems like it is a Retcon then, or at the very least a lazy artist.

[Poison_Berrie]

didymos1120 wrote...

It's still pretty major.  Yes, the basic shape of the head and the eye number are retained, but the skin is completely different, having been replaced with that thick chitin, the eyes are of a different type that lack pupils, the nose and mouth are gone, wings were added, there are additional small limbs on the torso, etc.  And that's not counting the Collector General, who is drastically different.

I haven't actually seen the new one, I just heard it was more like the Collectors. 
Perhaps the change is more drastic.

[mauro2222]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

I haven't actually seen the new one, I just heard it was more like the Collectors. 
Perhaps the change is more drastic.

It looks more amphibious. Just fuse a Salarian with a Collector, and you have a Prothean.