425 réponses à ce sujet

[CaptainZaysh]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

I'm pretty sure most "deserve" it.

Not really.  We mainly use predator drones for this these days.  For every target that deserves it we will often splash any grandkids that happen to be within the blast radius of an AGM-114 Hellfire missile dropped on the bad guy's house.  That's specifically killing them for something their grandparents did.

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

And, in ME, you were never instructed to kill her. You were instructed to see what Benezia was doing.

Yes but you have a general brief to "preserve galactic stability, by any means necessary".  I personally didn't predict the rachni would be a stablising influence.

EternalAmbiguity wrote...
Please take a look at this.

Does that make killing any American citizen "morally" okay?

Interesting!  Personally my problems with this would be more about the way it was executed than the fact it was executed.  This sounds like cowboy lawmaking to me, but with some better systems in place I could get on board with it.

[Mr. C]

Collider wrote...

Mr. C wrote...

Zaysh, you speak as if we were ordered to act against the rachni. Shepard was on Noveria to intercept Benezia; running into the rachni was a total surprise on his/her part. Although I do see where you're coming from, and mostly agree.

Side note: Why wasn't there an option to simply walk away? A third party opinion, council or Alliance, would have been welcome.

I imagine because that would make the choice too easy. Having the council choose is obviously most reasonable.

Heh, too true. Nothing can be easy, can it? 

[Izhalezan]

Mr. C wrote...

ZehnWaters wrote..

Assuming they weren't already indoctrinated at that point.

Were they ever? Were they ever really?

Doesn't seem to be much evidence for either side except the queen saying shes certain her people went to war against their will.

[Collider]

And the idea of killing someone because they could get indoctrinated is asinine. Why don't we kill Joker? He could get indoctrinated! Why not Garrus, or Tali, or Liara? Why not assassinate the president of the Alliance? What about that random bystander? Indoctrination is no special danger for the Rachni instead of anyone else.

That isn't the same thing.
It is a special danger for the rachni because of the way their society is. Queens control everything. You indoctrinate the queen, you essentially indoctrinate all of the drones under her command - which could be an entire army. The rachni also seem to be generally servile "people" too. Perfect for indoctrination.

Garrus, Tali, Joker are all individuals who are generally under Shepard's watch, and do not dominate and command large groups of people. Nor they do they have (or their races have) histories of being hugely indoctrinated.
It's not nearly the same as the rachni.

[ZehnWaters]

Mr. C wrote...

ZehnWaters wrote..
Assuming they weren't already indoctrinated at that point.

Were they ever? Were they ever really?

Well we've no indication to believe otherwise.  This is a story, not real-life.  In real life I probably would've left her until the higher-ups could decide her fate.

Modifié par ZehnWaters, 06 février 2012 - 04:41 .

[WizenSlinky0]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

The Krogans can't reasonably be judged by their present culture. Yes, they did nuke their homeworld until it glowed in the distant past (what were YOUR ancestors doing in 1000 AD?), but they are driven by two irresistible forces - a fundamental need to sustain their race with inter-tribal warfare to acquire and protect fertile females, and a thousand years of fatalism inspired by their intentional infection with an engineered disease. Many Krogans we meet are violent, but then, approximately half of the people we meet from all the races are actively trying to kill us at the time - the Krogans are just especially well-adapted to it, being naturally hardy. Every Asari could strip the flesh from your bones with a thought; the Turians might neuter your genes if they think it's in their best interests. The Salarians are...kind of annoying. Everybody's got their faults.

Scheisse, human biotics are almost uniformly dangerous psychopaths with astonishing mental powers. Should we kill 'em all in case they give us trouble later?

Yeah, no. The very first thing the Krogan did after killing the Rachni? Start taking over already colonized worlds, and when told enough is enough, the Krogan represensitive dared the galaxy to try and stop them.

Honestly, if it wasn't for Wrex, I wouldn't even consider curing the Krogan in ME3. But...you know...Wrex. Can't upset my dear walking-tank of a friend.

[CaptainZaysh]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

The Krogans can't reasonably be judged by their present culture. Yes, they did nuke their homeworld until it glowed in the distant past (what were YOUR ancestors doing in 1000 AD?), but they are driven by two irresistible forces - a fundamental need to sustain their race with inter-tribal warfare to acquire and protect fertile females, and a thousand years of fatalism inspired by their intentional infection with an engineered disease. Many Krogans we meet are violent, but then, approximately half of the people we meet from all the races are actively trying to kill us at the time - the Krogans are just especially well-adapted to it, being naturally hardy. Every Asari could strip the flesh from your bones with a thought; the Turians might neuter your genes if they think it's in their best interests. The Salarians are...kind of annoying. Everybody's got their faults.

Scheisse, human biotics are almost uniformly dangerous psychopaths with astonishing mental powers. Should we kill 'em all in case they give us trouble later?

I see your point, and I do think it has some merit.  Personally I'd be in favour of gradually reintegrating the krogan into galactic society: we could tweak the fertility rate, give them a frontier to settle, send a bunch of asari to make them grow up and straighten out (like how Aria swung half of the Patriarch's forces using sex appeal).  This all sounds awesome and very noble to me.

The bit that doesn't work for me is doing it in the middle of a war in order to meet some emergency threat.  There are just so many ways that can go wrong in absolutely apocalyptic ways that I think it would be...I'm trying to think of a nice way to put it.  Dangerously irresponsible?

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 06 février 2012 - 04:43 .

[Collider]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Collider wrote...
You are tasked to protect the galaxy, though. I would think that's more important than feeling good.

You DO know how subjective that statement is, right?

Yes.
In my opinion, it's generally more important to keep the galaxy safe than to risk the galaxy for the sake of personal morals.

Doesn't seem to be much evidence for either side except the queen saying shes certain her people went to war against their will.

ME3 spoiler:
The rachni get indoctrinated in ME3, so I imagine it's very possible they were as well in the rachni wars.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

No she was an abomination ... better be dead. Also I want better relations with Krogans.

[Megaton_Hope]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Yeah, no. The very first thing the Krogan did after killing the Rachni? Start taking over already colonized worlds, and when told enough is enough, the Krogan represensitive dared the galaxy to try and stop them.

Honestly, if it wasn't for Wrex, I wouldn't even consider curing the Krogan in ME3. But...you know...Wrex. Can't upset my dear walking-tank of a friend.

Taking over in terms of political power, or in terms of wanting to live on them? Seems to me that the established history places matters closer to the Chinese Exclusion Act (Get the hell off of Lusia, froggies, your kind ain't welcome here) than th' Texican Revolution (Welp, time to revolt and become an independent country).

Th' Council races resented that they might be pushed around by Krogan numerical superiority, and the Turians were ruthless in their strategic thinking - that the Genophage was ever deployed was pragmatic, but not necessarily a good idea.

[Mr. C]

Izhalezan wrote...

Mr. C wrote...

ZehnWaters wrote..

Assuming they weren't already indoctrinated at that point.

Were they ever? Were they ever really?

Doesn't seem to be much evidence for either side except the queen saying shes certain her people went to war against their will.

Someone who is imprisoned and/or faced with the looming threat of death will say anything to take blame off of themselves. Go to any prison anywhere. 99% of inmates will claim to be innocent, even with undeniable proof to the contrary. Although there is the possibility that she is telling the truth, in her current situation her testimony is suspect.

[eqzitara]

I let her live!

Possible romance option in ME3~

[Heimdall]

My main saved the queen, why?

1. Genocide is not nice

2. This Queen has done nothing but get experimented on, nothing to deserve death.

3. Even if I let her free, she's still stuck on a planet sized frozen rock.

4. I can contact the council and let them make the decision while the Rachni is still stuck on the aforementioned frozen rock.

5. Hard to imagine a single queen causing that much damage anyway.

[yuncas]

Being a genocidal jerkoff is not my thing maybe?

[floppypig]

Far too risky to let her live. Apart from damaging any alliance you may have with the krogan, you also have to think in the long term.

Let's say they help you and get rid of the Reaper threat. Then what? They'll go live on some planet - minding their own buisness. 

Eventually, some small bands of mercenraries will probably go attack them for **** and giggles - possibly angering them against the other races, especially considering the help they provided. Or the council (seeing as they're totally retarded) will decided they're too much of an unstable risk and attack them. Then all it takes is for the queen to get pissed off and there you go, Rachni War 2.0, except the genophage is still active and the Krogan aren't such a big help now.

It's not just about whether the Rachni can be trusted. It's also about whether the rest of the galaxy will agree with your decision and leave the Rachni alone or incoporate them into their society. My guess is that they won't. Maybe things will be fine for 1000 years, but at some point someone will make a move and it'll end in disaster. At the end of the day, if there's one thing the people in power (like the Council) convey, it's that they can't be trusted.

You can call me a murderer for commiting genocide, but from the information I was given, it was the safest course of action to preserve galactic stability. 

[eqzitara]

Lord Aesir wrote...

My main saved the queen, why?

1. Genocide is not nice

2. This Queen has done nothing but get experimented on, nothing to deserve death.

3. Even if I let her free, she's still stuck on a planet sized frozen rock.

4. I can contact the council and let them make the decision while the Rachni is still stuck on the aforementioned frozen rock.

5. Hard to imagine a single queen causing that much damage anyway.

3. She gets off noveria. Its mentioned in ME2 when talking to the messenger.
5. She reproduces like crazy. Remember station"? 17 I think" in noveria. They were all produced by the queen in a short span.

[Mr. C]

@floppypig

Well said.

Modifié par Mr. C, 06 février 2012 - 04:55 .

[Collider]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Collider wrote...
Yes.
In my opinion, it's generally more important to keep the galaxy safe than to risk the galaxy for the sake of personal morals.

And, how is killing the queen keeping the galaxy safe? She did nothing to harm anyone. It's merely your opinion that she will begin harming people, there's nothing to say that it has to happen.

And, by the way, we don't know what happens in ME3, so you can't say "well this happens so therefore it was a bad choice."

It's implied that the rachni were indoctrinated, the reapers are about and capable/willing of indoctrination and huskification, and the rachni wars threatened the entire galaxy. The reapers would be smart to find the queen and indoctrinate her so they can use those rachni troops to slaughter the galaxy again.

The rachni wars were only ended when the salarians uplifted the krogan out of primitiveness and let them proliferate. Now, there's the genophage and far less number of krogan, so they aren't as large an asset anymore. Which is a disadvantage against the possible rachni army.

The rachni queen may or may not end up harming people, but better safe than sorry.

[KevShep]

xnoxiousx wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

My Shepard is a soldier not a murderer.

My shepard is for greater good not what makes him sleep well at night.

If you do not sleep well at night then maybe your choices were not for the greater good, other wise the no lost sleep.

Tragic heros always claim there doing somthing for the greater good......Like T.I.M.

Modifié par KevShep, 06 février 2012 - 04:59 .

[ZehnWaters]

floppypig wrote...

Far too risky to let her live. Apart from damaging any alliance you may have with the krogan, you also have to think in the long term.

Let's say they help you and get rid of the Reaper threat. Then what? They'll go live on some planet - minding their own buisness. 

Eventually, some small bands of mercenraries will probably go attack them for **** and giggles - possibly angering them against the other races, especially considering the help they provided. Or the council (seeing as they're totally retarded) will decided they're too much of an unstable risk and attack them. Then all it takes is for the queen to get pissed off and there you go, Rachni War 2.0, except the genophage is still active and the Krogan aren't such a big help now.

It's not just about whether the Rachni can be trusted. It's also about whether the rest of the galaxy will agree with your decision and leave the Rachni alone or incoporate them into their society. My guess is that they won't. Maybe things will be fine for 1000 years, but at some point someone will make a move and it'll end in disaster. At the end of the day, if there's one thing the people in power (like the Council) convey, it's that they can't be trusted.

You can call me a murderer for commiting genocide, but from the information I was given, it was the safest course of action to preserve galactic stability. 

Then that's someone else' fault, not mine.  It's my job to decide what *I* do, not what the Queen does, or what someone in the future might possibly do.  I will not be responsible  for something the Queen *might* do.  The Krogan is different, they effectively declared war on the galaxy because they couldn't control their population.  The Genophage was an act of war, and was far more humane than any other option (bombing them into oblivion).  I'm not saying eradicating them the first time around was necessarily wrong, they declared war on the galaxy (indoctrinated or not).

[Megaton_Hope]

Mr. C wrote...


Someone who is imprisoned and/or faced with the looming threat of death will say anything to take blame off of themselves. Go to any prison anywhere. 99% of inmates will claim to be innocent, even with undeniable proof to the contrary. Although there is the possibility that she is telling the truth, in her current situation her testimony is suspect.

This being a completely alien species, we don't know that. She was born with the collected memories of all her ancestors, and everything from the basic components of her anatomy to the evolutionary process that created her was different from our own origin as war-like primates. In fact, her native form of communication may not permit lies to be told; she communicates mind-to-mind, not in these "low spaces" with primitive verbal cues. Or her culture may never have conceived of a need for deception. These are not things we are permitted to know with the information available to Shepherd.

In fact, almost nobody we meet in the game remembers meeting a living Rachni that wasn't an experimental subject of Binary Helix or Cerberus, so this is true of nearly anybody you might name.

[Collider]

And that's it. In the end, it's a subjective choice.

It is. It's my subjective choice and opinion that killing the rachni queen is best way to go.
If you spare the rachni queen, I'm not saying you're wrong so much as I just don't agree.