134 réponses à ce sujet

[bluewolv1970]

LinksOcarina wrote...

I see it as a simple factor of, if you do it right, it will be worth the time to read. But for Bioware to do it right, the works in question must always be supplemental.

For example, the Halo Franchise had I think 3-4 books based off of it, as well as a ton of machinma and an anime release. The problem is, the books gave backstory and characterization that was needed to understand some parts regarding the main Halo trilogy. The first game we know nothing about the Covenant except the name only, and that fact that they are fanatical organization. We know little about the UNSC and what Master Chief is, the Sparta program, and the state of Earth.

The novels do that backstory for us. games like Halo Reach, which came out after the main trilogy is a supplemental game in the grand scheme of things, did that well. But the fact that it was a forced requirement to read the novels and comics to understand basic stuff as well as motivations in Halo 1 is a mismanagement of resources and a poor reason to make a novel.

What we see with the stuff in Dragon Age and Mass Effect is different, because it is all backstory material that is insignificant to the overall plot, but expands the world. The comics for Mass Effect are side stories at the moment giving us extra info on characters; the books for Dragon Age are their own canon and showcase a sort of "what if" scenario going on based on the authors chosen story arc. That provides richness to the settings, not information we need.

So for me, it's all worth it, and i'm kind of glad they are handling it correctly. Except the new Mass Effect novel, that can be burned.

except with mass effect all the other stuff did not come on the heels of the game being sub par and needing patching (a year later) etc.  Again it is just unseemly and a little insulting to be spitting out all these other projects and talking about how great they are (like Laidlaw di with DOS) when the core game (that which everythign else is based off of) is sub standard both technically and creatively.

What is worse is that when anyone asks about a patch or dlc or anything related to improving the experience they paid money for they are given the smug "we will tell you when we feel lke telling you"  line and then in the next breadth "but meanwhile buy our shiny new comic or anime, it is AWESOME"...

Modifié par bluewolv1970, 08 février 2012 - 06:02 .

[KennethAFTopp]

I chose to ignore certain things, I don't think it's Bioware the Dev team that's busy with this sort of thing.

Like I am not really interested in the webseries something about it make me twitch. And the Anime sounds like fun buuut having it connect to DAII leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[igneous.sponge]

Great posts, devSin. Acute and relevant.

[LinksOcarina]

bluewolv1970 wrote...

except with mass effect all the other stuff did not come on the heels of the game being sub par and needing patching (a year later) etc.  Again it is just unseemly and a little insulting to be spitting out all these other projects and talking about how great they are (like Laidlaw di with DOS) when the core game (that which everythign else is based off of) is sub standard both technically and creatively.

What is worse is that when anyone asks about a patch or dlc or anything related to improving the experience they paid money for they are given the smug "we will tell you when we feel lke telling you"  line and then in the next breadth "but meanwhile buy our shiny new comic or anime, it is AWESOME"...

But that is how you perceive it. I am talking overall impression on things that are fairly irrefutable. If the game was bad or substandard in some way, then yeah, they can address that. But the other projects are not insulting in the least since this is a multi-media franchise we are dealing with, and considering we see it happen to tons of games now, getting a few novellas published every few years is not a big deal. 

As I said with the Halo example, the problem becomes what is left out of the core experience over what is told elsewhere. So honestly...and i'm just going to come out with it... the quality of the game in terms of technical pitfalls do not matter in this case.

The context within the game, however, does. That is what makes supplemental materials such as comics and books work in the end. The game can be good, can be bad, but it's still unimportant in the end because the information given that establishes the setting for players and fans of series such as this, can breathe life elsewhere in other mediums.

[schalafi]

The first time I played DA2, I didn't like it. I felt lost and confused by the fighting style and not being able to manage my npc's inventory like in Origins. I also wondered why the reuse of so many dungeons, and useless loot. The multiplying enemies was also strange...I would think I'd finished the fight and here came the 2nd and 3rd wave. I had no quarrel with the quality of the writing, or the romances, and loved the banter between companions, but I had been expecting something more like a continuation of Origins.

I have now played DA2 10 times, using different Hawks and switching around my npc's to get all the banter. It has become one of my favorite Bioware games of all time...and I've played them all.
The romances,IMO, are the best of any game of Bioware's that I've ever played, and I congratulate the devs and writers for getting it right this time.

I don't understand all the hatred for the game, and wonder if the people that disliked it so much just didn't give it enough time to explore all the possibilities. I found something new every time I played, including seeing Zevran, Alistair, and Nathaniel.

I hope DA3 will be a great game, and if it isn't like Origins, or DA2, I will buy it and enjoy it for what it is.

[Mike_Neel]

Bioware definitely has become a more marketing centered studio lately, that is true. Everyone pushes their products, but Bioware has been particularly aggressive about it it seems. I think that's a part of the EA merger as well though.

That said I am disheartened that a games marketing budget is bigger than it's actual development budget these days. Companies focus more on the short hand sell than actually providing a product you want to keep and hold on to and put back on your shelf. Then they focus on finding ways to keep the used market from passing their less than stellar product back and forth.

It just seems like Bioware, and other companies as well, are treating the symptoms and not the problem. But I'm probably going off on an off topic tangent here.

Everyone pushes their products as hard as they can though. Everyone wants to make as much money as they can.

[jds1bio]

Catching up with this thread here, some interesting comments have been made. I myself have been wondering about the attempts to flourish with BioWare IP outside of gaming, the hiccups that have occurred, and how they may be affecting current and future games.

I think part of the problem, more than perhaps BioWare's expansion into other media, or why people were disappointed with DA2, is that we as people in 2012 aren't nearly as receptive to following a story from beginning to end. Most audio/visual media (games included) have been cut down to sequences of fragments of ever-changing camera shots, ambient musical cues, and snippets of "reality" (or people just allowing themselves to be filmed). And games that do show more of their stories, rather than tell, are now accused of having "plot holes" because they did not tell, and showed only what the autuers and authors thought was necessary to see. This is not good for the future of games that want to also succeed in storytelling.

The games that people think supposedly "have the magic" and did back in the day, all involved much more reading, and more lengthy reading, than the games of today do. Perhaps they didn't have as many tools to "show" rather than "tell" back then. But they also asked their players to "hang in there" and stick with a combat system or stat system or control scheme until they could understand it and use it effectively. Today, if a control scheme doesn't work for someone out-of-the-box, they just move on to a different game. And today's games, particularly 2nd and 3rd sequels, tend to throw more mechanics and features into the gameplay that don't quite translate to making a calculated "player move", but translate more into "do this now because the game tells you to" (my favorite phrase being "Press 'X' to interact" followed by a non-interactive cutscene). These "new" mechanics tend to interrupt the storytelling attempts even more, as the player tries even harder to get his/her gameplay to flow within the context of a story.

So I think gamers need motivation to utilize the gameplay functions and features to make earnest player "moves", but also need motivation to ingest and digest various levels of media in order to accept being "told" a story. Any game created that can bring out both levels of motivation in a gamer will be a winner. But any non-game media that dampens this motivation in any way, like those that possess lore inaccuracies and use devices like ret-conning, can only hurt future game prospects.

[Morroian]

Mike_Neel wrote...

Bioware definitely has become a more marketing centered studio lately, that is true. Everyone pushes their products, but Bioware has been particularly aggressive about it it seems. I think that's a part of the EA merger as well though.

I haven't noticed much difference between the effort expended in marketing DA2 and say Skyrim and Reckoning. The only real difference is the that Bioware head of marketing makes some poor decisions.

[Mike_Neel]

Morroian wrote...

Mike_Neel wrote...

Bioware definitely has become a more marketing centered studio lately, that is true. Everyone pushes their products, but Bioware has been particularly aggressive about it it seems. I think that's a part of the EA merger as well though.

I haven't noticed much difference between the effort expended in marketing DA2 and say Skyrim and Reckoning. The only real difference is the that Bioware head of marketing makes some poor decisions.

Sure. DA2 isn't being marketed right now much anymore. But ME3 is. And before that DAII had tons of marketing everywhere. I'm sure you've seen, and possibly disregarded, that one video called "State of the Industry" which focused on all the marketing behind DAII and all the promotions they were forcing out there to increase sells. I haven't noticed it being that bad with ME3 but you can't see or think about or look at a current EA game right now without seeing ME3 thrown on in a forced effort of marketing. Look at your example of Reckoning. It's being crossed over into ME3 and like wise ME3 is being crossed into Reckoning. Demos, preorders, Comics, novels, web series, and I'm sure we'll see more as ME3 gets closer and closer, including facebook, twitter, youtube, and whatever else they can think of marketing. It's fairly invasive and aggressive compared to past games. 

But it's not just Bioware/EA. Everyone is doing it because there's so much more games out there competing for everyones attention. It's not so much a bad change I guess, I mean every other product does it as well. I mean people watch the super bowl just as much for the commercials as they do the game now. It's just a sign that games are becoming more mainstream I guess. A lot of people are just having a hard time with this change because it seems to have hit so sudden. 

[TEWR]

Stanley Woo wrote...

(ie. "Dragon Age Origins 2").

I have to ask just how Bioware defines this phrase. I've seen it used by the devs a lot, and I have to say that if it means what I assume it means, then I did not want this in regards to DA2.

I just wanted a good game.

I mean, I could give you a whole list of the things I found wrong with DAII. Quest by quest and item by item.

On a side note:

"Are you truly blind to the suck?"

This phrase will always make me lol, simply for how it sounds. Especially if said out loud in a hyperbolic tone of voice. It's that awesome and funny.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 février 2012 - 01:41 .

[lobi]

It's just marketing, wouldn't take it too serious until the 'blowup Quarians' hit the adult book stores.

Modifié par lobi, 08 février 2012 - 10:22 .

[PaulSX]

Those are just standard peripheral products that game companies usually do. Final Fantasy has several animation movies and mangas.

[Realmzmaster]

Yrkoon wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
As far as the average gamer not into comics and books are you kidding me? Walk into any comic shop and ask how many play video games, rpgs etc, most of the hands will go up or say yes.

Aah, but that's the thing.  You act as if Comic shops are  a regular fixture in the commercial sector... like Walmart or Mcdonalds.  They're aren't.  I live in St. Louis.  There's like  3 comic shops in the entire city.  And they're all tiny little holes in the wall that you'll miss.    If I were  to go to all three of them and ask the customers there if they're Gamers, and 100% of them said yes,   I'd still only be looking  at about 10 people saying Yes.   And that's if I go on a Saturday afternoon.

And while everyone watches movies, I stopped watching Anime about 20 years ago.  And even if I was still a raving Anime fan, I can think of nothing more corny than My dragon age characters  showing up in an Anime.  (Ugh!)

  Don't get me wrong.  I think its cool that  We're seeing Dragon Age in our Facebooks, and comics and TVs.  Sure wish that kind of time and energy would be going into the Game itself though.  People on this forum are asking for another DLC.  Where is it?  Oh yeah, it's not there.  But  hey, stay tuned for  the new episode of Redemption!  Or the Comic book or whatever.... instead

I live in Chicago. I  am not just talking about the comic shops, but also Barnes and Noble, Borders (before it went out of business), Books a Million and others. That is not counting the number of comic shops in the city. So I am talking about a much larger number which does not include all the contacts I have in California, New York and other states. As far as the DLC I am not worried about it one way or the other. If it comes that is fine. If not I will still be playing DA2 and the dlc that was released along with other games. There is nothing wrong with EA putting DA in multiple medias.

[Estherra Drack]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
As far as the average gamer not into comics and books are you kidding me? Walk into any comic shop and ask how many play video games, rpgs etc, most of the hands will go up or say yes.

Aah, but that's the thing.  You act as if Comic shops are  a regular fixture in the commercial sector... like Walmart or Mcdonalds.  They're aren't.  I live in St. Louis.  There's like  3 comic shops in the entire city.  And they're all tiny little holes in the wall that you'll miss.    If I were  to go to all three of them and ask the customers there if they're Gamers, and 100% of them said yes,   I'd still only be looking  at about 10 people saying Yes.   And that's if I go on a Saturday afternoon.

And while everyone watches movies, I stopped watching Anime about 20 years ago.  And even if I was still a raving Anime fan, I can think of nothing more corny than My dragon age characters  showing up in an Anime.  (Ugh!)

  Don't get me wrong.  I think its cool that  We're seeing Dragon Age in our Facebooks, and comics and TVs.  Sure wish that kind of time and energy would be going into the Game itself though.  People on this forum are asking for another DLC.  Where is it?  Oh yeah, it's not there.  But  hey, stay tuned for  the new episode of Redemption!  Or the Comic book or whatever.... instead

I live in Chicago. I  am not just talking about the comic shops, but also Barnes and Noble, Borders (before it went out of business), Books a Million and others. That is not counting the number of comic shops in the city. So I am talking about a much larger number which does not include all the contacts I have in California, New York and other states. As far as the DLC I am not worried about it one way or the other. If it comes that is fine. If not I will still be playing DA2 and the dlc that was released along with other games. There is nothing wrong with EA putting DA in multiple medias.

The best selling comics sell 200,000 a year if they’re lucky (I read comics so that 200,000 I am 1 of). So saying gamers read comics isn’t really accurate but saying that comic readers play video games is defiantly closer to the truth. Other than that I’m fine with a company doing stuff in comics, books or anime as long as they don’t sell us the ending to the game in said other media. Or sell us the ending in DLC, the ending should be in the game.

I’ve started getting my comics on the Kindle Fire, its much better for me.

Modifié par Estherra Drack, 09 février 2012 - 06:26 .

[CuriousArtemis]

They always say that fans of Dragon Age love Dragon Age because of the world. I guess that's why they're putting out all this stuff in various media instead of focusing on the game.

I came to Dragon Age via DA2 though, so the world is secondary to me. I love the characters and the story. I think I'm SOL in that regard though.

[Get Magna Carter]

1) with the exception of writer David Gaider there is little if any overlap of creativity between the games and the other products...so the release of these products have no impact on bug fixes, dlc, etc
2) The real money in any entertainment franchise lies in the merchandising (toys, mousemats, pencilcases..etc) -multimedia can be part of this and gathering a larger audience for this (as well as more encouragement to buy the main product)

[bEVEsthda]

LinksOcarina wrote...

...I am talking overall impression on things that are fairly irrefutable. If the game was bad or substandard in some way, then yeah, they can address that. But the other projects are not insulting in the least since this is a multi-media franchise we are dealing with, and considering we see it happen to tons of games now, getting a few novellas published every few years is not a big deal.

As I said with the Halo example, the problem becomes what is left out of the core experience over what is told elsewhere. So honestly...and i'm just going to come out with it... the quality of the game in terms of technical pitfalls do not matter in this case.

The context within the game, however, does. That is what makes supplemental materials such as comics and books work in the end. The game can be good, can be bad, but it's still unimportant in the end because the information given that establishes the setting for players and fans of series such as this, can breathe life elsewhere in other mediums.

Get Magna Carter wrote...

1) with the exception of writer David Gaider there is little if any overlap of creativity between the games and the other products...so the release of these products have no impact on bug fixes, dlc, etc
2) The real money in any entertainment franchise lies in the merchandising (toys, mousemats, pencilcases..etc) -multimedia can be part of this and gathering a larger audience for this (as well as more encouragement to buy the main product)

I quite agree with you, on the points in these post. This thread barks up the wrong tree. I don't think for a minute that merchandise and media activity dilute game development efforts.  ...Or need to.

What I'm afraid of is that the game design is affected by peripheral marketing. The very plans for comics, movies etc, are allowed to interfere with game design. Instead of thinking about "how should this be, to be a great game experience?" they are thinking about "how should this be, to fit in well with the marketing scheme  of the greater franchise?".

And I believe this is exactly the mistake behind this disastrous "new direction" of DA2. I also believe they intend to make this mistake again, in DA3.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 12 février 2012 - 02:19 .

[Siegdrifa]

bluewolv1970 wrote...

 when the game itself is was rushed, still needs patching ( a year later,) and resolution to a  bizzare and incomplete ending...I mean it is great that david gaider is writing comics and doing interviews (where it is admitted the game was rushed) and yet no one is writing the clean up to the mess that was/is act three...

Because "writting" is an early process for the video game production, what make the game rushed is the lack of environement at vanilla, and this is a 3D graphic job, not writter job.

As the writter finish "sooner" than the other teams (because they started first) they can work on other stuff while the game is still under developpement.

[Blacklash93]

DA2 was rushed. You can absolutely say it was a poor decision to do that, but don't say the dev team didn't try hard enough or made all of those bad design decisions because they felt like it or were lazy. I have no doubt that the DA dev team is very talented and given a good amount of time they could have easily given us something at least on par with Origins.

I love how people are still accusing Bioware of not listening to the fans and brushing aside their concerns when they've stated multiple times they are paying attention to criticism and have even admitted plenty of faults with DA2 like recycled environments and lack of player direction.

Hell, they've already explained how they're going to address the streamlined inventory for companions that people didn't like in DA2. They are listening.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 13 février 2012 - 04:22 .

[devSin]

Blacklash93 wrote...

DA2 was rushed. You can absolutely say it was a poor decision to do that, but don't say the dev team didn't try hard enough or made all of those bad design decisions because they felt like it or were lazy. I have no doubt that the DA dev team is very talented and given a good amount of time they could have easily given us something at least on par with Origins.

I love how people are still accusing Bioware of not listening to the fans and brushing aside their concerns when they've stated multiple times they are paying attention to criticism and have even admitted plenty of faults with DA2 like recycled environments and lack of player direction.

Hell, they've already explained how they're going to address the streamlined inventory for companions that people didn't like in DA2. They are listening.

Reread your post.

They've never said DA2 was rushed. It was, and we all know it. And the game suffered becacuse of it. In my opinion, primarily because of it.

That's my criticism. They can talk about refinining specific features or trying not to make the exact same mistakes again. But they've never said they won't rush the next game out the door again (and I don't believe they could ever do so, because I don't believe they have any say in it any longer).

Yes, they can better use the forced development schedule to make a game that doesn't show its complete lack of polish every time you turn around. But can they use it to make a game that truly shines?

"Sucks less than DA2!" should not be the goal. "Best we've ever done!" should be the goal, always.

[bEVEsthda]

Blacklash93 wrote...

DA2 was rushed. You can absolutely say it was a poor decision to do that, but don't say the dev team didn't try hard enough or made all of those bad design decisions because they felt like it or were lazy. I have no doubt that the DA dev team is very talented and given a good amount of time they could have easily given us something at least on par with Origins.

I love how people are still accusing Bioware of not listening to the fans and brushing aside their concerns when they've stated multiple times they are paying attention to criticism and have even admitted plenty of faults with DA2 like recycled environments and lack of player direction.

Hell, they've already explained how they're going to address the streamlined inventory for companions that people didn't like in DA2. They are listening.

I know for an absolute fact that the development team was good. And competently led. Because that's the only way they could have accomplished such a solid, (from the view of pure craftmanship) new-styled game in such a short time, with complete voice acting.

Some simple questions:

1: Did you like DA2?

2: Do you personally feel recycled environments and lack of player direction are great faults of the game?

3: Do you think recycled environments and lack of player direction are main reasons for people's dislike of DA2?

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 13 février 2012 - 07:51 .

[BBK4114]

I have never nor in all likelihood will never read the "tie-in" comics or novellas. (Edit: I lie - the 1st Witcher book is on my list.)  Maybe if I can find one for free on Kindleshare. But these would be waaaaaaay down the list of things I want to read.

Morroian wrote...

Mike_Neel wrote...

Bioware definitely has become a more marketing centered studio lately, that is true. Everyone pushes their products, but Bioware has been particularly aggressive about it it seems. I think that's a part of the EA merger as well though.

I haven't noticed much difference between the effort expended in marketing DA2 and say Skyrim and Reckoning. The only real difference is the that Bioware head of marketing makes some poor decisions.

Really?  Show me more than 2 bethesda books.  Anywhere.

Show me a movie tie-in or a comic book.  There aren't any.  And guess what?  I don't believe it had a negative impact on their sales. 


Bioware's comics/books/cartoons/webseries are an entirely different animal. They have really outdone anyone else in this regard (unless you're counting video games based on a preexisting comic or JRPGs)

The sales figures on latest ME comic book title (for 2011) are under 8,000.  So I don't think lucrative sales $$ are the motivation here.  Maybe the writers are bored with making video games? Branching out while making a paycheck? Idk. 

Still- in the grand scheme of things this is a minor issue.  

Edited to add: DA: Origins is still Bioware's most successful game. I think most of of didn't mind the lack of a conclusion to the Warden's story because we thought it was going to be addressed in the next game installment. Because it wasn't and because Hawke's story also has had an unsatisfactory conclusion it causes me to be very cautious in purchasing another DA game.

Modifié par BBK4114, 13 février 2012 - 08:03 .

[John Epler]

 It's been mentioned already, but it bears repeating - ancillary products are, by and large, not developed by the same people who work on the game-related content. Sure, exceptions exist (David and the various books & comics), but their impact on what we do as developers is relatively minimal - and we schedule with those exceptions in mind. Occasionally we'll offer suggestions and feedback, depending if our responsibilities and training lines up with the ancillary product's needs (Cine Design will look at content like webisodes, for example), but that ends up taking up a miniscule fraction of our time as compared to actual content needs.

If we wanted to, we could decide to contract someone to turn every minor plot of both Dragon Age games into their own all-singing, all-dancing Broadway musicals and it would still have almost no impact on our development schedule.

As for the reason behind the existence of these ancillary products - well, it's a big universe. If we tell only the stories we can fit into the games, we artificially limit the size of that universe. We like the Dragon Age universe. And so do our fans - some of whom will buy the ancillary products, some of whom will not. That's fine. We expect that, and as a result there's nothing in those products that is absolutely essential to understanding the plot of the games. But they can help, and they certainly add other layers to what we reveal through the core games.

In the end, the choice as to whether or not to engage with these products is up to the consumer - that is, all of you. We're not going to set up a situation where a critical plot element only makes sense if you read a book, or watch the anime. But for those who like that sort of thing? Hey, it's kind of neat to see a character you recognize from product X, and develop a slightly different relationship with that character based on the knowledge you got from reading the book, or watching the anime, or what have you.

But it's never critical, and it's also never a situation of 'well we can get this anime out there, but that means we're cutting three characters from the next title'. Let's be clear on both of those points.