453 réponses à ce sujet

[JamieCOTC]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Well it's expensive writing the extra romances and I'm sure that Jen can set the price as high as she likes considering the resume.

This makes me laugh.

Jennifer Hale is a fine voice actress, sure, but she's not the be all end all VO goddess some people seem to see her as. There are other, talented women out there, like Grey DeLisle and Jo Wyatt.

Nor can she just pick any role she wants like Samuel L. Jackson AND collect a huge fat paycheck because companies roll out the red carpet for her. VO acting isn't that lucrative a business. Frankly, I think she's happy to be on board the ME project, most of her interviews indicate she finds it an honour, not something she takes for granted.

Jennifer Hale auditioned for the role of Shepard, just like everyone else and she was paid a flat rate as per union scale just like everyone else. 

Coming from a D&D background part of the fun was creating the character and frankly if BW ever went for a predefined PC I’d have to say adios. 

[STARKILLER423]

I'm a male gamer and I play male characters always. Do i think femshep is a waste? Absolutely Not. The choice is there for those that want it.

[WizenSlinky0]

scyphozoa wrote..

Because a Bioware game isn't defined by any single design, but rather by the sum of a lot of designs. And I want about 90% of those designs intact, and about 10% of them removed or altered.

Sadly, this thread seems more about feminism and sexism than about the design choices of voiced and defined protagonists. Frankly, I would prefer if the entire ME franchise were exclusively female, because I think Hale does a much better job than Meer. This topic shouldn't be about sexism, it should be about the merits and limitations of this game design.

And there really aren't any merits to being one or the other. Each one has a different audience basically. Some people like defined characters that allow the story to delve into deeper waters. Some people, such as myself, prefer to have a more undefined character that allows for player investment through the use of imagination and customization options.

As for the benefits of each:

Undefined-
1.)  Deeper player investment
2.)  Broad satisfication of demographics
3.)  Wider spectrum of choice

Defined-
1.) Depth of character
2.) Depth of choice
3.) Removal of Interaction Limitations / NPC freedom of response

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 06 février 2012 - 09:10 .

[InvincibleHero]

Only BW knows the true answer. I'd say it's great they gave people the option. If they made ME starting today owned by EA hurting for money I don't think femshep becomes a reality. What is up with the fem-Shep is minimal resources when BW has stated they didn't want to make even one female model of say turian females a mere generic NPC because of cost in the past? It is a great deal of time to make a full 3d character model for a main character in hi-res and work out separate animations and such. Voice over adds more as well as making unique lines (admitttedly few of the latter though). Likely excluding fem-Shep would have shaved months off the dev cycle which is potentially millions. They didn't spend money to promote fem-Shep either and that says something.

Where do people assume 20% of ME 2 sales means 630,000 people played fem-shep. If someone has 12 fem-sheps as people do here the number is much lower. I have three of each. If someone played only one game 80%+ it is likely to be male. I would think 90% or slightly more played an exclusive male Shepard and female Shepard fans played disproportionally more playthoughs. We are not the norm as people here are avid gamers making multiple runs. Some here have a few dozen that is more dedication than I have.

As for the defined protagonist, I go for the if you are going to define major parts then just do it and be done with. I'd rather customize more than less. I dislike having last name defined like in origins and ME because you may as well lock the character first name and gender too if it means that much to the story to lock them into a family.

I don't get the story has to weak or generic if you don't define heavily. You can make a family for any character and define friends and allies too. You can create a history and all that without naming a specific gender and name to the character. It is all in how they design and write the game. As for voice overs they can make a short list of 20-30 names that a player can choose to be voiced during cutscenes and and NPC talking sequences. Baseball games have hundreds with commentary so I think RPGs can have a few dozen for each gender.

[Centauri2002]

What's with all the arguing? D:

I'm willing to give up a little bit of detail and background to my FemShep so other people can enjoy the game the way they want to. And so I can replay the game with a different experience. More choice for a greater amount of people is a good thing, isn't it? More people can then enjoy the game. The only time I can imagine this would be an issue is if you lack the imagination to fill in the blanks yourself.

If you want a fixed protagonist, there are plenty of games out there with them. BioWare do well at giving us choices - I'd rather they stick with that.

Modifié par centauri2002, 06 février 2012 - 09:33 .

[Starzie]

yoshibb wrote...

Until now, Femshep had not even been marketed as an option. As i've said a dozen times, I almost passed over Mass Effect cause I thought it was just another generic male space marine game with some RPG elements.

This. A million times this.

When Mass Effect (the first one) came out, I had no interest in it at all. Not only did I not know you could play a female, but I don't generally even look twice at a shooter. My guy friends all tried to get me to play it, but I just brushed them off.

Enter Mass Effect 2. I can't even remember why I picked it up. I think my friends were bugging me about it, so I finally caved and picked up a used copy at GameStop. Imagine my surprise when I realized I could as a female. Not only that, but the story elements really sold me. Bioware took a shooter - something I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole - and turned it into one of my all time favorite games.

I went and bought the first game just so I could import over a character and see what I missed with the first story.

If there was more marketing, I think a lot more female players would get hooked on this game, or at least give it a try. Male players may outnumber us, but our numbers are gaining, and I think Bioware is starting to really see that. SO as far as was it worth it finacially? In the long run, yes. Short term, not so much. Luckily, this franschise wasn't about a quick buck.

Modifié par Starzie, 06 février 2012 - 10:01 .

[Shinobu]

Segameister wrote...

I've never played with fem Shep. BUT, I can tell you I have several female co-workers who probably wouldn't have picked up ME2 if they had to play as Male Shep. It was worth it for that I think. It also definitely adds replayability.

I think NOT advertising the Fem Shep side of the game sooner was a mistake, it should have been a part of the promotions for ME2. I'm sure this will become more commonplace as more women game.

I like this geth, it understands!

I'm a female gamer who doesn't buy games where I have to play as a male. I just don't find playing male characters appealing/immersive. Mass Effect didn't appeal to me at first because 1) it was a "shooter" and 2) the box only had Sheploo on the front. If FemShep had been on the cover as well, I might have spent the extra 5 calories to pick up the box and find out I could play as a female, but since it didn't, I didn't bother to find out more about the game. After playing DA:O, I decided to look up more recent Bioware games, and once I found out Mass Effect 2 had a playable female protagonist,  I bought it. Once I played it, I bought ME1. And ME3 CE.

I'm sure there are many more women out there who would buy Mass Effect games if they knew thay could play as a female marine. I've heard the argument that they *should* know Shep is customizeable, but why should they when you have to expend some effort (even if minimal) to figure it out? Look on the Amazon website for ME3. It says Shepard is customizeable, but without mentioning gender at all. If I didn't know better, I'd assume I could only play as Sheploo.

I believe Bioware could easily tap into a new female gamer demographic if it would just let people know that you don't have to play as a male. Put both Shepards on the same side of the box -- most male gamers with think FemShep is the sidekick and not be scared off, while more female gamers will pick up the box and look at it.

The 18% statistic doesn't count all the women Bioware has not yet gotten to buy the game.

[Shinobu]

Mettyx wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Was it worth writing and recording a femshep?

No, it was a total waste of resources.

I for example, never bought and never will buy any game with female protagonist because it completely uproots your attachment to character who doesn't share such a fundamental characteristic as gender and it totally breaks the immersion.
And almost all gamers are male, especially in the RPG genre.

Of course, there are dysfunctional creeps who like to play as female characters to get their jollies on but that's a different story.

There are probably a lot of women who feel that way about games with male-only protagonists (including me). Why shouldn't Bioware want to attract their money? (Not that they couldn't do a better job at that...) Neither group has to play the other gender, so everyone wins, right?

That whole post is like saying "s/s romance shouldn't be included because I, a straight male, cannot fathom loving someone of the same gender. Also, the majority of people are straight, so we should have everything our way." Well, not everyone is just like you. Even if female gamers and s/s supporters are in the minority, we have money and we're willing to spend it on games that appeal to us. Props to Bioware for including the minority viewpoint.

[knightnblu]

I believe the expense to be worth it. I have never played femshep because it just isn't me. However, to remove that option for others and particularly for the women doesn't seem fair. They paid their hard earned coin for the game just as I did.

As games grow more advanced (I can remember ASCII graphics with jerky movements of an on screen blob that was supposed to be me) people expect more. Video games have become far more immersive with players becoming an integral part of the story. Choices have repercussions and there is a semi-persistent game state through successive games.

We take that for granted today, but just a few years ago that was a huge achievement. Gaming technology has increased greatly in the past 25 years or so, but the fact is that this industry is still a toddler. Rather than trying to restrict it, we should be encouraging innovation, exploration, and character development.

So the upshot is that I don't believe that it was wasted coin or effort. By providing options to the ladies we can bring them more fully into a male driven market diversifying it and increasing both profit for the game makers and the quality of the end product.

[tetrisblock4x1]

Starzie wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

Until now, Femshep had not even been marketed as an option. As i've said a dozen times, I almost passed over Mass Effect cause I thought it was just another generic male space marine game with some RPG elements.

This. A million times this.

When Mass Effect (the first one) came out, I had no interest in it at all. Not only did I not know you could play a female, but I don't generally even look twice at a shooter. My guy friends all tried to get me to play it, but I just brushed them off.

Enter Mass Effect 2. I can't even remember why I picked it up. I think my friends were bugging me about it, so I finally caved and picked up a used copy at GameStop. Imagine my surprise when I realized I could as a female. Not only that, but the story elements really sold me. Bioware took a shooter - something I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole - and turned it into one of my all time favorite games.

I went and bought the first game just so I could import over a character and see what I missed with the first story.

If there was more marketing, I think a lot more female players would get hooked on this game, or at least give it a try. Male players may outnumber us, but our numbers are gaining, and I think Bioware is starting to really see that. SO as far as was it worth it finacially? In the long run, yes. Short term, not so much. Luckily, this franschise wasn't about a quick buck.

I think that the point and click genre is female protagonist dominant. The one's I've seen anyway... I hear that The Longest Journey and Dreamfall were both quite popular with the ladies, and the puzzles are easy enough so don't worry if you're new to the genre.

[Shinobu]

AlanC9 wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
By allowing players to play whatever gender they wanted it affected the overall writing because the writers had to take this into account every single time they wrote dialogue.

That is absolutely true and all those resources could have been used to give MaleShep up to twice as much character development and up to +half as much interaction with other characters wtih the same amount of resources.

I don't see how adding a gender constraint to Shepard magically gives you that many more resources to write new dialogues. 

It cuts the VA budget a bit, sure.

This. If FemShep's lines are cut, any savings will be eaten into by paying Mark Meer to voice "new" dialogue. Also, that new dialogue would need to be written (which costs money) and animated (more money).

Adding FemShep is very efficient because the game gets twice as much game content with (basically) one script, and one set of animations.

[Costin_Razvan]

This. If FemShep's lines are cut, any savings will be eaten into by paying Mark Meer to voice "new" dialogue. Also, that new dialogue would need to be written (which costs money) and animated (more money).

Adding FemShep is very efficient because the game gets twice as much game content with (basically) one script, and one set of animations.

The argument was never about money, it's about development time. Without female Shepard Bioware wouldn't have needed to write explicit female Shepard dialogue, make armors to fit her, make the romances for her, make the romance cutscenes for her, record that dialogue for her romance and the dialogue leading up to the romance.

Without female Shepard we could have gotten more dialogue as male Shepard from Jacob, Garrus and Thane for instance. TIM could have gotten a few extra lines ( because they have to do the recording twice when doing gender discussions ). 

How about people stop looking beyond their love of fem Shepard and take a good long look at this? As much I care about my female Shepard I'd gladly throw them out the airlock if that meant I would have a better game overall.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 07 février 2012 - 03:05 .

[yoshibb]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Starzie wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

Until now, Femshep had not even been marketed as an option. As i've said a dozen times, I almost passed over Mass Effect cause I thought it was just another generic male space marine game with some RPG elements.

This. A million times this.

When Mass Effect (the first one) came out, I had no interest in it at all. Not only did I not know you could play a female, but I don't generally even look twice at a shooter. My guy friends all tried to get me to play it, but I just brushed them off.

Enter Mass Effect 2. I can't even remember why I picked it up. I think my friends were bugging me about it, so I finally caved and picked up a used copy at GameStop. Imagine my surprise when I realized I could as a female. Not only that, but the story elements really sold me. Bioware took a shooter - something I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole - and turned it into one of my all time favorite games.

I went and bought the first game just so I could import over a character and see what I missed with the first story.

If there was more marketing, I think a lot more female players would get hooked on this game, or at least give it a try. Male players may outnumber us, but our numbers are gaining, and I think Bioware is starting to really see that. SO as far as was it worth it finacially? In the long run, yes. Short term, not so much. Luckily, this franschise wasn't about a quick buck.

I think that the point and click genre is female protagonist dominant. The one's I've seen anyway... I hear that The Longest Journey and Dreamfall were both quite popular with the ladies, and the puzzles are easy enough so don't worry if you're new to the genre.

Except the series was left on a giant cliffhanger that was never and may never be finished <_<

[K_Tabris]

Of course it was. Every other game Bioware has made (rpg-style with an immersible story, etc.) featured an option to play as a female. With the Mass Effect series, they decided to up the cinematic aspect (remember that film grain graphic option?), and include a completely voiced protagonist. Even if most initially play a male character, most will play a female Shepard at some point.

There are also many of us who play repeated times, a FemShep, as well as a core fan base who not be here were it not for a female option.

Cost doesn't really come into consideration as much as the troll-attempt OP would like to think.

[What a Succulent Ass]

How about people stop looking beyond their love of fem Shepard and take a good long look at this? As much I care about my female Shepard I'd gladly throw them out the airlock if that meant I would have a better game overall.

I'm going to take a wild guess here and theorise it's because what might make a better game for you is a more boring one for others.

[Dragoonlordz]

Was it worth writing and recording a femshep?

Yes.

Not going to say much more than that because I have wrote vast amounts on this topic already in older threads and have no desire to repeat myself over and over again everytime someone new asks the same question.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 07 février 2012 - 03:15 .

[ADLegend21]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Well it's expensive writing the extra romances and I'm sure that Jen can set the price as high as she likes considering the resume.

The statistics Bioware released a couple of years ago say that 80% played mark meer shep...

So this might be due to advertising or something, but they've had the whole trilogy to make it generally known tht there is a femshep so I don't know why they'd go 2 whole games without trying to sell it until the very late last minute attempt at a trailer for femshep that still hasn't been shown yet.

I play both so yes it is worth and it's dumb consumers who have their e-penis's offended when they see a woman kicking ass. and go "wahh women can't do that" plus they paid Mark vanderloo alot of money to have his face scanned for Sheploo. Also if oyu ahven't noticed there's a very lively femshep community, which is actually more alive than the maleshep community, but we're working with them to make them both just as lively.

[yoshibb]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

This. If FemShep's lines are cut, any savings will be eaten into by paying Mark Meer to voice "new" dialogue. Also, that new dialogue would need to be written (which costs money) and animated (more money).

Adding FemShep is very efficient because the game gets twice as much game content with (basically) one script, and one set of animations.

The argument was never about money, it's about development time. Without female Shepard Bioware wouldn't have needed to write explicit female Shepard dialogue, make armors to fit her, make the romances for her, make the romance cutscenes for her, record that dialogue for her romance and the dialogue leading up to the romance.

Without female Shepard we could have gotten more dialogue as male Shepard from Jacob, Garrus and Thane for instance. TIM could have gotten a few extra lines ( because they have to do the recording twice when doing gender discussions ). 

How about people stop looking beyond their love of fem Shepard and take a good long look at this?

Then go play Alpha Protocol, the Witcher, or Deus Ex. These are all games in which the main male character is given way extra time, dialogue, and cutscenes at the expense of two genders. But where's the female version of these games? You do realize that without the MaleShep, females could get a lot more time and dedication. Yet we aren't asking that they kick the male out of the game. All the female animations have been pretty much torn straight from the MaleShep animations, but we're not asking to uproot the entire system. Most of the time, we just want FemShep to cross her legs when she's wearing a dress.

But seriously there are dozens of games that you can get customization of a male character or your canon male character. This is one of the few games that I can really play as the strong female character without standing around in a skimpy ridiculous outfit. You can't have every game. I know that we are not the majority but we still can number anywhere from 20-40% of the gaming population. How about you share a little of the wealth? Is that so hard?

[WizenSlinky0]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

This. If FemShep's lines are cut, any savings will be eaten into by paying Mark Meer to voice "new" dialogue. Also, that new dialogue would need to be written (which costs money) and animated (more money).

Adding FemShep is very efficient because the game gets twice as much game content with (basically) one script, and one set of animations.

The argument was never about money, it's about development time. Without female Shepard Bioware wouldn't have needed to write explicit female Shepard dialogue, make armors to fit her, make the romances for her, make the romance cutscenes for her, record that dialogue for her romance and the dialogue leading up to the romance.

Without female Shepard we could have gotten more dialogue as male Shepard from Jacob, Garrus and Thane for instance. TIM could have gotten a few extra lines ( because they have to do the recording twice when doing gender discussions ). 

How about people stop looking beyond their love of fem Shepard and take a good long look at this? As much I care about my female Shepard I'd gladly throw them out the airlock if that meant I would have a better game overall.

The problem is, that's exactly what you'd get. You really would only get a "few more lines" that would mean absolutely nothing in the scheme of things.

This is from someone who has *never* played a female shepard even once. And honestly, the way they have it set up is ideal.

yoshibb wrote...
Most of the time, we just want FemShep to cross her legs when she's wearing a dress.

Is that so hard?

The desire to make inappropriate jokes is strong.

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 07 février 2012 - 03:18 .

[Costin_Razvan]

yoshibb : Maybe I like the Mass Effect Universe, maybe I love playing Mass Effect and maybe I have the right to express my opinion that getting rid of a gender, ANY gender would be a vast improvement for future games.

The reason I bring up female Shepard is that with 80% of people playing male it would be just stupid to argue that. Would I personally mind it if male PC didn't exist anymore in Bioware games? No. I speak as someone who played KOTOR 1 and 2 a hell more as a female char then a male char. Who played Jade Empire only as female.

 
The problem is, that's exactly what you'd get. You really would only get a "few more lines" that would mean absolutely nothing in the scheme of things. 

INot just a few, possibly a few hundred or even thousands. As well as more armors possibly ( since they wouldn't have to design female armors for the PC ), more cinematics that kind of stuff.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 07 février 2012 - 03:22 .

[Gabey5]

TC has a point, numbers wise it is not worth it and bioware would not see a player drop that would be significant.

So i get your point from a logical perspective

[Shinobu]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

This. If FemShep's lines are cut, any savings will be eaten into by paying Mark Meer to voice "new" dialogue. Also, that new dialogue would need to be written (which costs money) and animated (more money).

Adding FemShep is very efficient because the game gets twice as much game content with (basically) one script, and one set of animations.

The argument was never about money, it's about development time. Without female Shepard Bioware wouldn't have needed to write explicit female Shepard dialogue, make armors to fit her, make the romances for her, make the romance cutscenes for her, record that dialogue for her romance and the dialogue leading up to the romance.

Without female Shepard we could have gotten more dialogue as male Shepard from Jacob, Garrus and Thane for instance. TIM could have gotten a few extra lines ( because they have to do the recording twice when doing gender discussions ). 

How about people stop looking beyond their love of fem Shepard and take a good long look at this? As much I care about my female Shepard I'd gladly throw them out the airlock if that meant I would have a better game overall.

The solely female dialogue is pretty much limited to the 3 romances, which is not a big part of the game. If we cut FemShep and use the time/money to just add 3 new romances for Sheploo, would that be worth it? That amount of "extra" content isn't going to add 18% more buyers to the franchise, while adding FemShep does that and has the potential to add more.

Think about this the other way: Let's say Bioware chooses to make FemShep canon and has 6 romances for her instead of having 2 gender choices for Shepard. Is that good marketing? No. That would be stupid. So why should the opposite be true?

Would you gladly throw Sheploo out the airlock if you had a longer, better game with FemShep only? Even if you said yes, the majority of players wouldn't, because they're not invested in her. So why should the minority accept giving up FemShep to get a longer game that we're not invested in?

Modifié par Shinobu, 07 février 2012 - 03:30 .

[colejossart]

ADLegend21 wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Well it's expensive writing the extra romances and I'm sure that Jen can set the price as high as she likes considering the resume.

The statistics Bioware released a couple of years ago say that 80% played mark meer shep...

So this might be due to advertising or something, but they've had the whole trilogy to make it generally known tht there is a femshep so I don't know why they'd go 2 whole games without trying to sell it until the very late last minute attempt at a trailer for femshep that still hasn't been shown yet.

I play both so yes it is worth and it's dumb consumers who have their e-penis's offended when they see a woman kicking ass. and go "wahh women can't do that" plus they paid Mark vanderloo alot of money to have his face scanned for Sheploo. Also if oyu ahven't noticed there's a very lively femshep community, which is actually more alive than the maleshep community, but we're working with them to make them both just as lively.

While I don't necessarily agree with the OP,  or the exclusion of Femshep, I have to say that the Femshep community is (like most minority groups) a very vocal minority.  The majority doesn't feel the need to yell and scream about how much they like playing Male Shepard.  It's just assumed, until stated otherwise, that most males (ergo most gamers) will play a male.

It's not about what women can or cannot do.  It's about the fact that most guys find it creepy to roleplay a female and romance a guy. And while there is a VERY active Femshep community, it's not as large as you would have us believe.

[ediskrad327]

femshep was since ME1 so sudenly making a sex change by eliminating her would be stupid

[What a Succulent Ass]

The desire to make inappropriate jokes is strong.

I thought I was the only one.

Teehee.