453 réponses à ce sujet

[Nu-Nu]

Unbannable wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Not in choice based games. In choice based games the depth is determined by the player.

Its what makes it so emotional and interesting.

That makes no sense at all, because all games have choices to some extent.  Take a game like the Witcher, where you play as Geralt of Rivia, a decidedly fixed character, yet the game itself is very open to interpretation due to the choices the player makes.

And while Bioware gives it's customers the choice of playing male or female, that doesn't necessarily add more depth to a game because the sex of the character is seldom taken into account in the first place.

So having different gender doesn't effect the path of the storyline and is seldom taken into account but you would still prefer a static character because you think just sticking to one character would add more depth....you make perfect sense...

No, what Bioware needs to do is make a more in depth storyline if that is your problem, not restrict it to one gender. Maybe create a better background instead of a one paragraph history.

Gender here is not the problem. One paragraph history is.

Modifié par Nu-Nu, 06 février 2012 - 06:02 .

[Unbannable]

Arkitekt wrote...

This is not even up for discussion. I do not even have to show you how utterly wrong you are. I merely have to show you how people will disagree vehemently with you on this (given femshep wide appeal and fanbase) to show how wrong you are, since if it wasn't important, such appeal would simply not exist.

The fact that there are other RPGs that do not do such a thing is immaterial. We are discussing Mass Effect, not ****er2.

Femshep's fanbase is limited to this forum, so I'd hardly call it a "wide appeal."  Typical BSNer, thinking these forums are the "be all end all."

And bringing up other RPGs isn't immaterial, because your central arguement seems to be that "choice" is the defining principle of an RPG game, and since the Witcher games with a defined character  are laden with choices that have tremendous impact on the story itself, yet in Bioware's games the choice of deciding the gender of the PC has very little impact on the story, then I'd say your arguement is naive and without circumspect.

[yoshibb]

Unbannable wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

This is not even up for discussion. I do not even have to show you how utterly wrong you are. I merely have to show you how people will disagree vehemently with you on this (given femshep wide appeal and fanbase) to show how wrong you are, since if it wasn't important, such appeal would simply not exist.

The fact that there are other RPGs that do not do such a thing is immaterial. We are discussing Mass Effect, not ****er2.

Femshep's fanbase is limited to this forum, so I'd hardly call it a "wide appeal."  Typical BSNer, thinking these forums are the "be all end all."

And bringing up other RPGs isn't immaterial, because your central arguement seems to be that "choice" is the defining principle of an RPG game, and since the Witcher games with a defined character  are laden with choices that have tremendous impact on the story itself, yet in Bioware's games the choice of deciding the gender of the PC has very little impact on the story, then I'd say your arguement is naive and without circumspect.

Femshep's entire fanbase is limited to this forum? What? That's ridiculous. 630,000 people who played ME2 as femshep, all frequent this site?

[essarr71]

Unbannable wrote...

Femshep's fanbase is limited to this forum, so I'd hardly call it a "wide appeal."  Typical BSNer, thinking these forums are the "be all end all."

lol.

You realize you just contradicted yourself, right?

[Klijpope]

 The reason that FemShep has become such a cult icon is that you end up with a female character that is treated (apart from in a few specific contexts) exactly like a male one. That in itself is exceedingly refreshing.

Can you think of another female protagonist in games, one who generally has a voice and engages in social interactions, who doesn't come with a bag of 'female' cliches?

Joanna Dark? Trip from Enslaved? (Can't really comment on that, as I haven't played it). Maybe Claire Redfield and Jill Valentine...

Certainly not Lara Croft, or Bayonetta, or Wet, or even Madison from Heavy Rain.

Who is the most iconic female protagonist in genre movies? Well that would be Ripley - a part which in Alien was written without a specific gender in mind.

In fact, even the other female characters in ME haven't been treated quite as well as FemShep, in that they all seem to have been sexed-up a bit (or more).

Modifié par Klijpope, 06 février 2012 - 06:10 .

[TheImmortalBeaver]

trickfred wrote...

My wife's a fledgling gamer, steadily becoming more 'core' over the last 7-8 years, and she cannot really get into a game, especially any kind of RPG, if she is pigeonholed into playing a male character. Discussion of idiosyncrasies aside, the fact is, having a female gender option has resulted in 2 ME2 CE sales and 2 ME3 CE preorders instead of one standard edition sale of each in our case.

Recently, after asking me several questions about Skyrim (she's never played a Bethesda game, and I wasn't initially interested in it), the final question that sealed our purchase was indeed, "Can I play as a woman?" Publishers that are looking to court women as customers more often, here's step one, and it's a very easy one.

Imagine how cool the Batman games (both AA and AC) would be if you could play through as Batwoman (or Batgirl) with a bit of unique dialog geared to her? I'll bet my wife would have played it, and many more women as well.

Similar to your story, trickfred, my sister played a few games, but didn't really get into video games until BioWare's allowance of gender choices. That being said, I don't think a choice in gender is appropriate for every game, since most games focus on showing a specific character, while Mass Effect, Skyrim, etc are more about immersing the player in the experience. Lara Croft doesn't need to be Larry Croft for me to play her games, as she is a destinctly female character (I would prefer that I actually find the games enjoyable, but that's another story entirely). I do prefer to play as a male, being male, but that doesn't figure so much into my purchase decisions unless the game specifically focuses on player immersion.

And more back to the original thread purpose, I don't think that a Female Shepard is a waste of time, even assuming that the "Less than 20%" statistic is a hard and fast number. 20% of the millions of people who play Mass Effect is still quite a bit, and it reminds me of the business with Nintendo's Wii. People figured that focusing on a casual audience was stupid, since they never bought consoles and didn't care. Yet Nintendo advertising to and focusing on such an untapped audience really paid off for them, and I think that BioWare could benefit quite well from taking a similar approach to FemShep. Do more people play Male Shepard? Yes. Are there most likely more male gamers? Yeah. Does this mean that an entire, completely ignored market should be ignored? No. Even if BioWare can't draw in that many more gamers by way of gender choices, they can at least keep their current audience happy, which will result in plenty of customer loyalty.

In any case, BioWare just really needs to get the word out that Mass Effect is about choice, including being able to play yourself (and figuring gender into that choice!) and not just another Gears of War. If they did that, they could potentially open up an enormous market.

[Shadowrun1177]

Unbannable wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

This is not even up for discussion. I do not even have to show you how utterly wrong you are. I merely have to show you how people will disagree vehemently with you on this (given femshep wide appeal and fanbase) to show how wrong you are, since if it wasn't important, such appeal would simply not exist.

The fact that there are other RPGs that do not do such a thing is immaterial. We are discussing Mass Effect, not ****er2.

Femshep's fanbase is limited to this forum, so I'd hardly call it a "wide appeal."  Typical BSNer, thinking these forums are the "be all end all."

And bringing up other RPGs isn't immaterial, because your central arguement seems to be that "choice" is the defining principle of an RPG game, and since the Witcher games with a defined character  are laden with choices that have tremendous impact on the story itself, yet in Bioware's games the choice of deciding the gender of the PC has very little impact on the story, then I'd say your arguement is naive and without circumspect.

I can prove you wrong about Femshep's fanbase being limited to this forum with one link. 
femshep.ning.com/

[WizenSlinky0]

Unbannable wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

This is not even up for discussion. I do not even have to show you how utterly wrong you are. I merely have to show you how people will disagree vehemently with you on this (given femshep wide appeal and fanbase) to show how wrong you are, since if it wasn't important, such appeal would simply not exist.

The fact that there are other RPGs that do not do such a thing is immaterial. We are discussing Mass Effect, not ****er2.

Femshep's fanbase is limited to this forum, so I'd hardly call it a "wide appeal."  Typical BSNer, thinking these forums are the "be all end all."

And bringing up other RPGs isn't immaterial, because your central arguement seems to be that "choice" is the defining principle of an RPG game, and since the Witcher games with a defined character  are laden with choices that have tremendous impact on the story itself, yet in Bioware's games the choice of deciding the gender of the PC has very little impact on the story, then I'd say your arguement is naive and without circumspect.

You're continuing to ignore the human investment side of the game, and I don't understand why.

If you don't give a crap about a character it doesn't matter what kind of impact on the story you have. It means nothing.

Things like gender, while small, all add to the ability for a person to feel invested emotionally and therefore take more out of the game.

[Arkitekt]

Unbannable wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

This is not even up for discussion. I do not even have to show you how utterly wrong you are. I merely have to show you how people will disagree vehemently with you on this (given femshep wide appeal and fanbase) to show how wrong you are, since if it wasn't important, such appeal would simply not exist.

The fact that there are other RPGs that do not do such a thing is immaterial. We are discussing Mass Effect, not ****er2.

Femshep's fanbase is limited to this forum, so I'd hardly call it a "wide appeal."  Typical BSNer, thinking these forums are the "be all end all."

What is typical from certain people is the ability to create factoids out of methane clouds coming from dark places. Much before I even cared about ME enough to lurk here I was already loving femshep. Friends who play ME (and convinced me to play it) don't even know BSN, and are femshep fans as well.

And bringing up other RPGs isn't immaterial, because your central arguement seems to be that "choice" is the defining principle of an RPG game

Your problem is that you try too hard to think. Don't. If you are unsure about what I "seem" to say, ask me directly, okay? I didn't even write the three letter acronym for chrissakes. I wrote "Mass Effect".

, and since the Witcher games with a defined character  are laden with choices that have tremendous impact on the story itself, yet in Bioware's games the choice of deciding the gender of the PC has very little impact on the story, then I'd say your arguement is naive and without circumspect.

You still don't get it. It's not about the story. For instance, the character creator has zero impact on the story. So why bother? I'll tell you why. Because Bioware thinks that you (the player) wants to roleplay a personalized Shepard of your own taste. And sex is the biggest personalization choice there is. To me, seeing a femshep instead of maleshep delivering those lines is a completely different experience.

And I don't even have to convince you that this is so. I just have to inform you that many people feel like I do. Which they obviously do.

[Siegdrifa]

Unbannable wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

That said I strongly feel that giving the player the decision to pick a gender has an overall negative effect on the writing, since Bioware must ALWAYS account for it.

This pretty much.  I have no issue with FemShep, but I think Commander Shepard would have been a much more intriguing character if he/she had been static, rather than open to interpretation.

The most memorable characters are always fixed characters, ie Link, Geralt of Rivia, Lara Croft, Batman etc....  When you always leave a character open to interpretation, it reduces the depth (and so the appeal) of the character because the character's story isn't as personal or focused.

And this goes beyond just gender.

I strongly disagree.
Unnbannable, i'm sorry but you took bad exemple to make your point:
Link is an unvoiced character that never had real conversation, to let most of people believe what they want about the hero, Geralt of Rivia is also a plain monotonic guy, you can either play him like a saint with high moral or a dirty bastrad ****ing every chick he sees and gettings things done only if there is payment, laracroft... i have yet to see what part of her make her "memorable" exept her boobs ...Batman, his is not a video game hero in the first place, the character have a well know history and ideal, that is why making a video game of him could be intresting, because lot of fan would love to play as batman.

Link, and Geralt, are totaly interpretable characters, but what is great is that you got the feelings they are still memorable for you.

Also, Shepard wouldn't have been a much deeper character if there was no femshep, because you can already play the character as paragon / paragade / renegon / renegade or choose the grey choice.
Let's not forget that FemShep, even as a women have a very masculin scrip to handle, she don't waste time on beauty and feminin talk, the only sexappeal of feminity the player can put in her is by letting her use some make up and lipstick, but again, this is an option to appeal for some player, because there is no script about feminin chichat or cat fight or shooses shopping, manucure etc, you can play a bald FemShep, that would fit better. FemShep is though, because she is just an adaptation of manshep, the voice actress do all the work to make her sound like a woman even with the manly talk while keeping the "charismatic hero in any situation".

In my opinion, Jennifer Hale have created a strong woman forcing the respect of others (she proved she knows how to handle dangers on battlefields, she is a fearsome soldier), without denying she is a woman (all my fem Shep are Beautifull women of different colors and races), which make her charisma stronger and play a part in her personnality that can mesmerize others, but she just is naturaly beautifull, she don't spend time for shopping, manucure to be good looking, she is naturaly a classy woman not afraid to do the hard job.
I realy like being able to play a character like that, especialy if it's saving the galaxy.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 06 février 2012 - 06:36 .

[JamieCOTC]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Well it's expensive writing the extra romances and I'm sure that Jen can set the price as high as she likes considering the resume.

Sorry, that is incorrect, but thank you for playing.  Voice actors like Hale are paid a flat fee that is based on a union scale.  (source: New Yorker article w/ Jennifer Hale).

I've been playing BioWare RPGs since Balder's Gate and they all had both male and feamle PCs.  Not sure why ME would be any different.

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 06 février 2012 - 06:38 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Geralt is a far deeper and interesting character then Shepard could ever claim to be. Michael Thorton is deeper and more interesting ( you can play him as a real psychopath, a REAL manipulative bastard, a real hero or a real James Bond character ).

As for people expecting gender choices in RPGs, no. Just take a look at the witcher, people expect CHOICES overall with consequences.

Now as I said I wouldn't mind being forced playing a female character all. But I know Bioware wouldn't pull it off without a massive outcry.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 février 2012 - 06:42 .

[WizenSlinky0]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

As for people expecting gender choices in RPGs, no. Just take a look at the witcher, people expect CHOICES overall with consequences.

Generalization. Unless you honestly believe all people want the same thing from a game, of course. In which case, Ignorance.

[essarr71]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Geralt is a far deeper and interesting character then Shepard could ever claim to be. Michael Thorton is deeper and more interesting ( you can play him as a real psychopath, a REAL manipulative bastard, a real hero or a real James Bond character ).

As for people expecting gender choices in RPGs, no. Just take a look at the witcher, people expect CHOICES overall with consequences.

He's also an unfair comparison.

Geralt is based off a character from an established medium.  Allowing the option to change the sex of Geralt would be the same as having the option of changing the sex of Luke Skywalker in a star wars game.

[Blacklash93]

Absolutely worth it. Appealing to the female fans is a huge gesture that shows Bioware is thinking of ALL players and not just a specific demographic.

Really, I'm fine if it was a trade-off for choice and consequesnce. I'd rather have an entertaining experience that all people can enjoy and identify with equally rather than a deeper experience that only appeals to the spoiled masses; the "Straight Male Gamer".

Modifié par Blacklash93, 06 février 2012 - 06:47 .

[Arkitekt]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

As for people expecting gender choices in RPGs, no. Just take a look at the witcher, people expect CHOICES overall with consequences.

I don't care if people "expect" gender choices or not in a specific archetype of a game that I personally couldn't care less. The discussion was if it was "worth" writing and recording a femshep for Mass Effect.

I don't expect the same as you do in games, and to each his own. Personally I couldn't be happier with the possibility of playing Femshep, which has been a very substantial part of the appeal of ME to myself.

[Unbannable]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

I found witcher relatively unlikable simply because he was so fixed. You risk turning people off completely to the character in role-playing games if you define them too much. It can be a calculated risk, but it's still a risk.

The same could be said for making a character open ended instead of defined.  Both have their pros and cons. 

BTW, did you ever play Planescape Torment?

The gender is taken into account when players invest themselves in a character. You're ignoring human investment completely, which is kinda a big deal.

I'm not ignoring human investment.  You erroneously believe that the ability to select your character's gender is crucial to investment, and yet the most famous and popular video game characters always tend to be fixed.

Why is that?  And this is compounded by the fact that the PC's gender in Bioware's games seldom have very little impact on the main plot to begin with.

Your sex/gender has a tremendous impact on the path(s) you can take through life in the real world, but in Bioware's games, it's merely a superficial, almost purely aesthetic choice.

[Costin_Razvan]

I don't care if people "expect" gender choices or not in a specific archetype of a game that I personally couldn't care less. The discussion was if it was "worth" writing and recording a femshep for Mass Effect.

By allowing players to play whatever gender they wanted it affected the overall writing because the writers had to take this into account every single time they wrote dialogue.

[Blacklash93]

Unbannable wrote...
Your sex/gender has a tremendous impact on the path(s) you can take through life in the real world, but in Bioware's games, it's merely a superficial, almost purely aesthetic choice.

That's because it would take a huge amount of resources to implement such complexities.

And I like that Male and Female Shepard are treated largely the same. It shows that one is just as capable, strong, confident, and respectable as the other.

[Blacklash93]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I don't care if people "expect" gender choices or not in a specific archetype of a game that I personally couldn't care less. The discussion was if it was "worth" writing and recording a femshep for Mass Effect.

By allowing players to play whatever gender they wanted it affected the overall writing because the writers had to take this into account every single time they wrote dialogue.

That is absolutely true and all those resources could have been used to give MaleShep up to twice as much character development and up to +half as much interaction with other characters wtih the same amount of resources.

But you know what? That's fine. I've stated my opinion on that above.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 06 février 2012 - 07:01 .

[Nu-Nu]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I don't care if people "expect" gender choices or not in a specific archetype of a game that I personally couldn't care less. The discussion was if it was "worth" writing and recording a femshep for Mass Effect.

By allowing players to play whatever gender they wanted it affected the overall writing because the writers had to take this into account every single time they wrote dialogue.

If that is the case, then Bioware should stop giving us paragon, neutral and renegade choices as they have to take that into account every single time. I'm pretty sure gender differences is the least taxing out of that lot.

[Yumi50]

18% well, that means every 5 players, there's one femshep in them right? In that way it make sense.

The '1' in 18% makes it look less. Try look at it as 20%. That's a lot considering guys seem to addict to gaming more.

[Blacklash93]

Nu-Nu wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I don't care if people "expect" gender choices or not in a specific archetype of a game that I personally couldn't care less. The discussion was if it was "worth" writing and recording a femshep for Mass Effect.

By allowing players to play whatever gender they wanted it affected the overall writing because the writers had to take this into account every single time they wrote dialogue.

If that is the case, then Bioware should stop giving us paragon, neutral and renegade choices as they have to take that into account every single time. I'm pretty sure gender differences is the least taxing out of that lot.

It all comes down to priorities. Morality and choice are first and foremost because it adds the most (appealing) depth and costs the most resources. Gender is second to that. Other things like niches come in third.

You can stop at 1 and add all extra resources to that to make for a very in-depth experience with significant C&C or you can sacrifice some of that to include the other two.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 06 février 2012 - 06:58 .

[Unbannable]

Nu-Nu wrote...

So having different gender doesn't effect the path of the storyline and is seldom taken into account but you would still prefer a static character because you think just sticking to one character would add more depth....you make perfect sense...

Of course it makes perfect sense, because a fixed character is always more focused.  If Commander Shepard was a fixed FEMALE character, then wouldn't that add more depth to the game?

There would be a lot more allusions to her femininity, as you would expect for a woman in her position.  Instead of people referring to her as "Shepard," all the time, they would call her by her first name whatever it would be.  You would have been able to see her family..

The list goes on. 

No, what Bioware needs to do is make a more in depth storyline if that is your problem, not restrict it to one gender. Maybe create a better background instead of a one paragraph history.

Gender here is not the problem. One paragraph history is.

It's conceivable that Bioware could make games with more in depth storylines that would take gender into account, but that would cost significantly more time, effort and resources I would think......if they want to do it right that is.

[Nu-Nu]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I don't care if people "expect" gender choices or not in a specific archetype of a game that I personally couldn't care less. The discussion was if it was "worth" writing and recording a femshep for Mass Effect.

By allowing players to play whatever gender they wanted it affected the overall writing because the writers had to take this into account every single time they wrote dialogue.

That is absolutely true and all those resources could have been used to give MaleShep up to twice as much character development and up to +half as much interaction with other characters.

But you know what? That's fine. I've stated my opinion on that above.

They had less options (no elves or dwarfs) and background story for DA2 main character than they did for DA1, did they spend that extra time and resources on what was what left, was DA2 main character more in depth? No, they didn't spend the extra resource and time on DA2, it just meant they could just sell it quicker.