206 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cerberus, STG and all similar black-ops forces will never operate within what would civilians consider "acceptable moral guidelines".

The whole point of being black ops is that you do things you shouldnt' be doing. If anyone - ANYONE - things STG and all other similar organization by other species are morally purer....they are delluding themselves.

[Kasen]

STG is not perfect by any means, but they don't use human guinnea pigs the way Cerberus does. Mordin makes that quite clear on Tuchanka.

Modifié par Kasen13, 06 février 2012 - 01:39 .

[Adhin]

That's something I'm curious about. Was Cerberus ever mentioned in that Galaxy iPhone game? I mean that was developped out of house I think, and they ended up deciding to include Miranda and Jacob in ME2 as Cerberus agents. It sounds more like shoehorning them in then some grand plan.

While it seems kinda 1-sided from are current perspectives for ME3 I kinda hope a little more of the misguided reasoning is shown in ME3. I'd like to at least understand why Tim is as bat**** nuts as he is. Other then his obvious entitlement issues.

-edit-
Ops, meant Miranda not ashley.

Modifié par Adhin, 06 février 2012 - 01:49 .

[LaurenShepard-N7]

Slidell505 wrote...

They were an unkown in ME1
Morally grey in ME2
In ME3 they're more or less team rocket from what I can tell. They show up out of no where just to screw with Shepard. They keep on trying to steal his pokemon too, ****ing annoying as ****.

To protect the world from devastation
To unite all peoples within our nation
To denounce the evils of truth and love
To extend out reach to the stars above
Miranda
Jacob
Team Cerberus blasting off at the speed of light
Surrender now or prepare to fight

i41.tinypic.com/6j0ww4.jpg

[Lotion Soronarr]

Kasen13 wrote...

STG is not perfect by any means, but they don't use human guinnea pigs the way Cerberus does. Mordin makes that quite clear on Tuchanka.

Please...spare me the faux morality.

STG killed mroe innocents that Cerberus ever will or can. Experimenting on a few innocents is insignificant compared ot deaths of BILLIONS of krogan children.


Use your brain. STG and similar untis are run by the government/military. You think your government is moral and concenrned with virtues? Such organizations are nothing but a tool of their government - used to do things that shouldn't be doen publicly, things that can be denied.

[Ieldra]

I say preventing bllions of children from ever existing is not equivalent to killing them.

As for what governments do and not, well, of course they take morality into account. After all, things get out and whichever bad thing they think must be done, someone has to do it and live with the consequences. The difference is they don't make morality the single guideline of their actions. Which is as it should be.

Cerberus appears to be different in that they don't take morality into account *at all*. At least, TIM doesn't.

[All-a-Mort]

Have we ever actually found out whether Cerberus still has links to the Alliance? I mean no-one seems to know where TIM got his money (note I know Evolution explains TIMs background). Makes you wonder whether Cerberus is working loosely to advance Alliance goals, just under an identity that gives Alliance brass deniability.
But yeah, the ME3 change to them is a bit much, unless they explain the timing and cause (yeah I know what has been leaked) of the Cerberus shift to being evil personified. That said I hate their pro-human cr*p anyway, so the chance to shoot at them is not unwelcome.

[Kasen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Kasen13 wrote...

STG is not perfect by any means, but they don't use human guinnea pigs the way Cerberus does. Mordin makes that quite clear on Tuchanka.

Please...spare me the faux morality.

STG killed mroe innocents that Cerberus ever will or can. Experimenting on a few innocents is insignificant compared ot deaths of BILLIONS of krogan children.


Use your brain. STG and similar untis are run by the government/military. You think your government is moral and concenrned with virtues? Such organizations are nothing but a tool of their government - used to do things that shouldn't be doen publicly, things that can be denied.

Then we agree that Cerberus and other organizations like them shouldn't be doing the things they're doing. Great! Progress at last!

[WhiteKnyght]

Adugan wrote...

 Are they good or evil?

Mass Effect: Evolution gives the implication that the Illusive Man has been under Reaper influence ever since the First-Contact War.

So I'll go with the idea that their leader is either very crazy or just indoctrinated.

Ieldra2 wrote...

I say preventing bllions of children from ever existing is not equivalent to killing them.

You have not seen the piles of children who never lived!

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 06 février 2012 - 02:18 .

[DJBare]

Did we really need another Saphra/Lotion thread?

[Lycidas]

DJBare wrote...

Did we really need another Saphra/Lotion thread?

You got to give them credit for pure stubbornness though...

[Kasen]

Lycidas wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Did we really need another Saphra/Lotion thread?

You got to give them credit for pure stubbornness though...

They definately have a bright future in politics... or journalism...

[GnusmasTHX]

They're evil.

By virtue of the fact that you can accomplish their goals without being evil makes them evil.

[saracen16]

Kasen13 wrote...

The basic concept of Cerberus isn't nessicarily a bad idea; Miranda makes a good argument when she points out the Salarian STG have similar goals. It's their total lack of ethical standards and complete disregard for safety that more often than not results in incredibly high body counts and have more than once put the entire galaxy at risk, that are the problem.

With some serious overhauls, Cerberus might be a force for good. With the Illusive Man in charge though, I seriously doubt that will ever happen.

Only that the STG did not invade the Quarian flotilla, unleash thresher maws on Akuze, and perform experiments on unwilling human colonists. Never mind the terrorist attacks they conducted against aliens, and now their siding with the Reapers. I do not think an organization that believes that the ends justifies the means will ever be a force for good, because they will do anything to achieve their goals, especially if it involves committing a lot of evils.

[nitefyre410]

Cerberus and STG are necessary - because the mass's don't want to know what it really takes the to keep them safe and sound. Cerberus as organization has to continue exist. TIM on the other believes he is the organization , nope he just a man, a once good man who set to do right. He stared in the abyss and it started back the problem is he blinked. Now Cerberus needs a new director and its time for TIM to get the retirement package.

[Kasen]

saracen16 wrote...

Kasen13 wrote...

The basic concept of Cerberus isn't nessicarily a bad idea; Miranda makes a good argument when she points out the Salarian STG have similar goals. It's their total lack of ethical standards and complete disregard for safety that more often than not results in incredibly high body counts and have more than once put the entire galaxy at risk, that are the problem.

With some serious overhauls, Cerberus might be a force for good. With the Illusive Man in charge though, I seriously doubt that will ever happen.

Only that the STG did not invade the Quarian flotilla, unleash thresher maws on Akuze, and perform experiments on unwilling human colonists. Never mind the terrorist attacks they conducted against aliens, and now their siding with the Reapers. I do not think an organization that believes that the ends justifies the means will ever be a force for good, because they will do anything to achieve their goals, especially if it involves committing a lot of evils.

I couldn't agree with you more, in fact that was pretty much my entire point. I'd also like to add killing an Alliance Admiral to that list - that's a biggie in my book.

Edited to add: I think I see where I confused you, I wasn't trying to suggest that STG and Cerberus are equivlants, just that Cerberus should be more like the STG (which admittedly has its share of flaws too; any organization does). I do agree though that Cerberus probably just needs to be dismanteled altogether - the organization will never recover from the terrible reputation it has garnered from the insanity - and yes, evil - of it's projects.

Modifié par Kasen13, 06 février 2012 - 02:40 .

[Barquiel]

The difference between Cerberus and other groups like the STG is that Cerberus always chooses the most sadistic way to achieve their goals (and that I disagree with Cerberus' goals).

Take, for example, the genophage. The krogan launched a great war of conquest in search of "lebensraum". The council tried diplomacy, they tried to fight a conventional war, they developed the genophage...wielding it as a deterrent. They only used the genophage after everything else failed.

Cerberus...we need some powerful human biotics...let's kidnap some children and torture them!

Yes, they're evil.

[BlueMagitek]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I say preventing bllions of children from ever existing is not equivalent to killing them.

As for what governments do and not, well, of course they take morality into account. After all, things get out and whichever bad thing they think must be done, someone has to do it and live with the consequences. The difference is they don't make morality the single guideline of their actions. Which is as it should be.

Cerberus appears to be different in that they don't take morality into account *at all*. At least, TIM doesn't.

The way Wrex described it, "an infection that makes only a few in a thousand children survive birth", makes it sound less 'prevention' and more 'abortion'.  But then again, Wrex is no scientist, so he may have been exaggerating slightly.  It's still denying life to millions (perhaps billions at this point).

That's why they have black ops groups to take the fall for them. 

[Lycidas]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Cerberus and STG are necessary - because the mass's don't want to know what it really takes the to keep them safe and sound. Cerberus as organization has to continue exist. TIM on the other believes he is the organization , nope he just a man, a once good man who set to do right. He stared in the abyss and it started back the problem is he blinked. Now Cerberus needs a new director and its time for TIM to get the retirement package.

You need to stop comparing a government enforced and regulated secret service organization with an illegal Black Ops organization such as Cerberus. You're basically comparing democracy with anarchy...

Modifié par Lycidas, 06 février 2012 - 02:32 .

[DJBare]

I agree that cerburus as a group is a grey area, but their methods are not, that's why I say anyone that supports cerburus should volunteer their family, friends and self to go under the cerburus scalpel for the greater good

Modifié par DJBare, 06 février 2012 - 02:34 .

[BlueMagitek]

Barquiel wrote...

The difference between Cerberus and other groups like the STG is that Cerberus always chooses the most sadistic way to achieve their goals (and that I disagree with Cerberus' goals).

Take, for example, the genophage. The krogan launched a great war of conquest in search of "lebensraum". The council tried diplomacy, they tried to fight a conventional war, they developed the genophage...wielding it as a deterrent. They only used the genophage after everything else failed.

Cerberus...we need some powerful human biotics...let's kidnap some children and torture them!

Yes, they're evil.

Yeah; remember that time they brought back a dead hero to save some colonies?  Monsters to the last of them.

And then they took a look at the dying race that they are driving to extinction, which is stuck on two or three worlds and say "Man, screw these guys, reapply the genophage".  And this is a long time after the Krogan rebellions.

If Cerberus is evil, every similar natured group is as well. =D

[Poison_Berrie]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Please...spare me the faux morality.

STG killed more innocents than Cerberus ever will or can. Experimenting on a few innocents is insignificant compared ot deaths of BILLIONS of krogan children.

First of a few seems to be a gross underestimation. Experimenting on unvoluntary Intelligent beings seems to be a reasonably standard fare.

Seconldy STG has been around a whole lot longer than Cerberus has been. To think that Cerberus wouldn't result to similar tactics as the STG calling out on others for not mentioning thinking the STG is quite similar to Cerberus seems a bit missing your own point. 

[WizenSlinky0]

The STG is practical, Cerberus is reckless. STG is government funded, Cerberus is privately funded. That are the only differences. The STG is similarly split into cells and I'm sure some of them are a lot less moral in their choices than others. But, because they are government funded, the government will take the political fallout if the STG acts too recklessly. It's a check of sorts to ensure they stay on task.

Honestly, I don't think the STG would be a viable model if it wasn't for the typical Salarian personality.

[FaddeZ]

Cerberus are working for the Reapers in ME3. All I want to know is why?!

[nitefyre410]

Lycidas wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Cerberus and STG are necessary - because the mass's don't want to know what it really takes the to keep them safe and sound. Cerberus as organization has to continue exist. TIM on the other believes he is the organization , nope he just a man, a once good man who set to do right. He stared in the abyss and it started back the problem is he blinked. Now Cerberus needs a new director and its time for TIM to get the retirement package.

You need to stop comparing a government enforced and regulated secret service organization with an illegal Black Ops organization such as Cerberus. You're basically comparing democracy with anarchy...

 

Why  what does them being goverment sanctioned or not goverment sanctioned  have to do with the nature of the work they do... nothing.   

One could agrue the STG and Council are worst.. . one dropped a Genetic Biological Weapon to fix a mistake they maded and the other for 300 plus years has been completly  apathetic to the humanitarian and refugee crisis  that Quarians are in.

Cerberus is not the issue the person running it is.