329 réponses à ce sujet

[WizenSlinky0]

Yuoaman wrote...

Yeah, having to run all the different systems in Saren's body to keep it going probably made Sovereign far too invested when it died, probably causing him to basically be knocked out.

If we draw a correlation to the Geth, synthetics we know more about, the reapers may produce "avatars" like that through a similar method of downloading programs to the platform. So if Saren required a larger number of programs, upon his death, Sovereign may have no longer had enough processing power to maintain his shields.

Assuming:

a.) He was arrogant enough to not consider downloading the programs back to the reaper body early enough
or
b.) The signal was somehow disrupted by the Citadel.

[naledgeborn]

Sovereign has the best monologue in the series thus far. Simple.

[hawat333]

Sovereign is a strange geth ship.
No, wait, Sovereign is not geth, it's more alien and ancient.
No, wait. Sovereign is not only alien, it seems to bend the mind of people to Saren's will.
Holy sh..cow! Sovereign is an actual Reaper!

Whereas Harbinger was: Oh, look, another Reaper. He always threatens me and always fails to deliver.

I guess, for me, the first one was much more intimiadting.

[AlanC9]

HTTP 404 wrote...
this pretty much true.  I also want to add that the collectors are most likely disposable in the Reaper's eyes.  they are just one ship that is less than a reaper while an armada of reaper ships are soon to arrive from dark space.  Harbinger probably thought the worst that could happen was that the collector ship be destroyed and the collector base would still be hidden and inaccesible.  Harbinger underestimated EDI's ability to figure out a way to get through the Omega Relay.

Also note that the Collectors have more than one ship so losing one won't necessarily stop the human Reaper project. EDI's dialog makes no sense unless different Collector ships have been spotted over the years. However, the one fromthe Collector Ship mission may be their most capable ship since it's the one that keeps going after Shepard.

[Yuoaman]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Yuoaman wrote...

Yeah, having to run all the different systems in Saren's body to keep it going probably made Sovereign far too invested when it died, probably causing him to basically be knocked out.

If we draw a correlation to the Geth, synthetics we know more about, the reapers may produce "avatars" like that through a similar method of downloading programs to the platform. So if Saren required a larger number of programs, upon his death, Sovereign may have no longer had enough processing power to maintain his shields.

Assuming:

a.) He was arrogant enough to not consider downloading the programs back to the reaper body early enough
or
b.) The signal was somehow disrupted by the Citadel.

My guess is that Sovereign couldn't conceive of an eventuality where he would personally fail to stop Shepard, even if Saren did. And when the programs were abruptly terminated the other programs stopped maintaining shields to focus on retrieving them.

[Pedro Costa]

AlanC9 wrote...
I don't see it. This means cancelling the Collector Ship mission and boarding the Normandy. The latter attack was a partial success, and the former almost worked -- both would have worked if Harbinger hadn't underestimated EDI and Joker.

 
Definitely. That's the whole point: retreat, wait for Reaper Arrival, go out in full force as support troops or resuming harvesting when everyone and their bunny are running around like headless chickens trying to deal with the Reapers.

The Collector Ship relied on the same tried and failed strategy of possessing a random collector and attacking Shepard with husk and collector support, so there really isn't any difference from Horizon.

Boarding the Normandy wasn't even Harbinger's plan. It was the Reaper IFF's doing, Harbinger simply saw it and took the opportunity. And even then, with the Normandy at the Collector's mercy, Harbinger didn't destroy it when it could, instead deciding to board it and pick its meager crew up, like it'd be enough to finish the Reaper.

And if they don't go running around the Galaxy, they can't finish the Reaper.

Of course not, but they weren't going to finish said Reaper for use during this Cycle in any meaningful manner anyway, they were just shortening the production schedule by starting early. By retreating, they'd be saving their forces and keeping what they already had of the Reaper.

[andy6915]

My theory on the possession is that every time an avatar is destroyed, the death of it somehow travels back to the controller and causes severe pain and also causes a stun that disables actions and shields. When Sovy possessed Saren, it was in a last ditch attempt to make his plans succeed, and knew the risks (heavy risk... but the prize!), but did it anyway because there was no more options.

Harby is smart though, and not strapped for time. He works through the Collector General as a medium. By possessing him and making HIM possess the Collectors, he makes the General take the hit of the death of an avatar. By doing that, he avoids the pain of possession backfire because the General is the poor bastard to take it for him. That is why he uses a medium, he's protecting himself from what happened to Sovy.

In short, Harby is a weak coward who can't take his own pain, so he pushes the pain he should be receiving onto someone else by making them do it for him.

[Confused-Shepard]

Sovereign was a creepy Eldritch Abomination that had tea with the likes of Yog Sottoth and is what probably HP Lovecraft was thinking of when he wrote "The Color Out Of Space" which in turn seems to suspiciously speak of indoctrination.

Harbinger by comparison is your creepy pedo uncle. I have seen squadmates, THE FREAKING SQUADMATES bend him over and give him a good pounding. Harbinger is the dust on my heels. He is nothing. He is bacteria.

Modifié par Confused-Shepard, 06 février 2012 - 05:14 .

[AlanC9]

hawat333 wrote...

Sovereign is a strange geth ship.
No, wait, Sovereign is not geth, it's more alien and ancient.
No, wait. Sovereign is not only alien, it seems to bend the mind of people to Saren's will.
Holy sh..cow! Sovereign is an actual Reaper!

Whereas Harbinger was: Oh, look, another Reaper. He always threatens me and always fails to deliver.

I guess, for me, the first one was much more intimiadting.

I mentioned Villain Decay upthread. I was talking about Reapers in general, but now that I think about it, the whole Harbinger setup is pretty much optimized for the phenomenon. He gets to try and fail to kill Shepard multiple times even within a single combat. Now, rationally, we're fighting a puppet, not Harbinger himself, so Harbinger failing to kill Shepard multiple times isn't any more meaningful than Sovereign's geth failing to kill Shepard multiple times. But it still makes Harbinger feel weaker.

See, for instance, Confused-Shepard's post just above mine. We don't kill Harbinger in ME2; we don't even come within light-years of him. The best we can do is break some of his toys. Whereas we do kill Sovereign in ME1. And yet somehow the one we can kill feels weaker than the one we can't kill.

Modifié par AlanC9, 06 février 2012 - 05:20 .

[Yuoaman]

AlanC9 wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...
this pretty much true.  I also want to add that the collectors are most likely disposable in the Reaper's eyes.  they are just one ship that is less than a reaper while an armada of reaper ships are soon to arrive from dark space.  Harbinger probably thought the worst that could happen was that the collector ship be destroyed and the collector base would still be hidden and inaccesible.  Harbinger underestimated EDI's ability to figure out a way to get through the Omega Relay.

Also note that the Collectors have more than one ship so losing one won't necessarily stop the human Reaper project. EDI's dialog makes no sense unless different Collector ships have been spotted over the years. However, the one fromthe Collector Ship mission may be their most capable ship since it's the one that keeps going after Shepard.

I'm pretty sure that there was only one ship ever...

[HTTP 404]

good point about villain decay Alan. reminds me of the power ranger villians. haha always making the same mistake every episode

[BatmanPWNS]

HTTP 404 wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Sovereign really was boring and I don't see the hype. He only talks to you once in ME1 and that isn't even a good scene.

haha there's a hype?  I took sovereign at face value.  I took harbinger as an idiot.

Some people thinks his badass and scary. I think he just talks slow.

[AlanC9]

Yuoaman wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Also note that the Collectors have more than one ship so losing one won't necessarily stop the human Reaper project. EDI's dialog makes no sense unless different Collector ships have been spotted over the years. However, the one fromthe Collector Ship mission may be their most capable ship since it's the one that keeps going after Shepard.

I'm pretty sure that there was only one ship ever...

Check EDI's dialog. She compares this ship to known Collector profiles to confirm that this is the one from Horizon. That makes no sense whatsoever if there's only one such ship, unless EDI's an idiot and all the profiles are the same.

[Yuoaman]

AlanC9 wrote...

Yuoaman wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Also note that the Collectors have more than one ship so losing one won't necessarily stop the human Reaper project. EDI's dialog makes no sense unless different Collector ships have been spotted over the years. However, the one fromthe Collector Ship mission may be their most capable ship since it's the one that keeps going after Shepard.

I'm pretty sure that there was only one ship ever...

Check EDI's dialog. She compares this ship to known Collector profiles to confirm that this is the one from Horizon. That makes no sense whatsoever if there's only one such ship, unless EDI's an idiot and all the profiles are the same.

Or maybe the profiles are from different scanners and the like.

[WizenSlinky0]

AlanC9 wrote...

Yuoaman wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Also note that the Collectors have more than one ship so losing one won't necessarily stop the human Reaper project. EDI's dialog makes no sense unless different Collector ships have been spotted over the years. However, the one fromthe Collector Ship mission may be their most capable ship since it's the one that keeps going after Shepard.

I'm pretty sure that there was only one ship ever...

Check EDI's dialog. She compares this ship to known Collector profiles to confirm that this is the one from Horizon. That makes no sense whatsoever if there's only one such ship, unless EDI's an idiot and all the profiles are the same.

Well, if she only has one known collector profile...she didn't lie.

[AlanC9]

Yuoaman wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Check EDI's dialog. She compares this ship to known Collector profiles to confirm that this is the one from Horizon. That makes no sense whatsoever if there's only one such ship, unless EDI's an idiot and all the profiles are the same.

Or maybe the profiles are from different scanners and the like.

That still requires EDI to be an idiot. Telling Shepard that this is the particular ship that the Collectors used at Horizon is not at all the same thing as saying that this is the only ship the Collectors ever had.

[tetrisblock4x1]

AlanC9 wrote...

Omega-202 wrote...
They're beyond our comprehension and understanding and therefore they should sound like it. Sovereign did, Harbinger didn't.

I'm amazed by how many players apparently bought into that mystical crap Sovereign was shoveling at us.

Depends on how you look at it. They certainly seem to be that from a technological point of view. But as for what they want, well that's easy. They want the same thing that any human being wants. There is a galactic circle of life, and the reapers are further up the food chain then us. Life feeds on life.

Modifié par tetrisblock4x1, 06 février 2012 - 05:24 .

[AlanC9]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Well, if she only has one known collector profile...she didn't lie.

Heh. Yeah, it's possible. If EDI's actively trying to mislead Shepard for some reason, or if something's gone badly wrong with her language system

[incinerator950]

AlanC9 wrote...

Yuoaman wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Check EDI's dialog. She compares this ship to known Collector profiles to confirm that this is the one from Horizon. That makes no sense whatsoever if there's only one such ship, unless EDI's an idiot and all the profiles are the same.

Or maybe the profiles are from different scanners and the like.

That still requires EDI to be an idiot. Telling Shepard that this is the particular ship that the Collectors used at Horizon is not at all the same thing as saying that this is the only ship the Collectors ever had.

When she means Profiles, she means registry and database.  No one actually knows if the Collectors have more than one ship.  Only people who deal with them are mercenaries, slavers, and pirates, or insane geneticists.  Then, every Council warship to engage the Collector Cruiser was destroyed.  Even Hacket confirms that for the Alliance. 

[_symphony]

AlanC9 wrote...

Yuoaman wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Also note that the Collectors have more than one ship so losing one won't necessarily stop the human Reaper project. EDI's dialog makes no sense unless different Collector ships have been spotted over the years. However, the one fromthe Collector Ship mission may be their most capable ship since it's the one that keeps going after Shepard.

I'm pretty sure that there was only one ship ever...

Check EDI's dialog. She compares this ship to known Collector profiles to confirm that this is the one from Horizon. That makes no sense whatsoever if there's only one such ship, unless EDI's an idiot and all the profiles are the same.

We always see the same ship every time, and even in the collector base there's only one defending it. Even if they have more than one ship, obviously they don't have the numbers to attack the better defended colonies in Citadel space or Earth itself.

[AlanC9]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Correction, EDI compares the profile to the one recorded by the original Normandy, everything but outright stating it is the only knows profile to compare to. 

This is totally wrong. I'm actually in the middle of the Collector Ship mission so I have a save handy, and EDI specifically says that she has "compared the ship's EM signature to known Collector profiles."

If all those profiles are of the same ship, then EDI isn't telling us anything. Of course this is the ship that attacked Horizon if the Collectors only have one ship. Same thing for when Joker discovers that this is the ship that destroyed SR-1. Neither of those conversations make any sense if everyone is assuming that the Collectors only have the one ship.

Modifié par AlanC9, 06 février 2012 - 05:35 .

[Pepper4]

Because Sovereign had this awesome conversation with Shepard on Virmire.

[WizenSlinky0]

Eh I believe the plan the collectors had *was* to hit Earth. I believe they wanted to accomplish this by hitting colonies and forcing the fleets from Arcturus to start patrolling or risk losing all of their colonies.

If they could lower the guard, all they needed was one push through earth's defenses before their little bug friends could work their magic. That's made them so adept at what they did. No one had ever encountered them enough to be able to counter that paralyzing until Mordin came along.