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Anti Mage Mage

Débuté par Guest_Nizaris1_* , févr. 06 2012 05:55

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#1
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Posté 06 février 2012 - 05:55

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 I am thinking about this concept now, usually we got in most of games the anti-mages are from warrior class character, the one who use melee weapons to against mages. Now i see in DA:O mage also have anti-mage spells and most effective ones. But i never see any build guides or forum discussions about this.

Many will argue what benefit to built anti-magic mage because we have Templar companion, but i have some argument about the matter.

1. We have Alistair, our earliest Templar companion in the game, but he only have tier 1 Templar talent. we will face dangerous mages before he reach level 9 for Cleanse Area or level 14 for Holy Smite. While we can learn Anti Magic Burst and/or Mana Clash as soon as we got 33 Magic.

2. Cleanse Area of Templar only effect everyone but themselves and they need to get close to the enemy to make the enemy being in the AoE, while Anti Magic Burst will effect everyone including the caster if the caster is in the AoE, and the caster can control where the AoE (in case of the caster have magic buff on themselves like Arcane Warrior)

3. Righteous Strike is melee attack, if it hit then have its effect, and only toward one target, while Mana Cleanse destroy mana in large area with one spell.

4. Holy Smite is unlikely to kill mages outright, while Mana Clash may kill any enemy with mana outright (and get Heavy Hitter achiement for that)

5. Mental Fortress only add 20 Mental Resistence, while Spirit School Magic offer so many magic resistence spell, Creation School Glyph of Warding give 50 Mental Resistence,  (and Arcane Warrior Shimmering Shield do a better job)

6. Templar cannot protect allies/others from magic, but Anti-Mage Mage can protect aliies/others from magic with Anti Magic ward (10 seconds) or Glyph of Neuteralization

So, i see Anti-Mage Mage is far better effective in dealing with mages than a Templar themselves. furthermore, Anti-Mage Mage can be built as whatever the player wish in putting the rest of their spell points :-

1. Damager- Primal School and/or Blood Magic

2. Support- Creation School or Enthropy School

3. Half Warrior - Arcane Warrior

But of course, to fill all the anti-magic spells tree early will make the first few early game campaign will be boring and hard, but afterward, like in Broken Circle or the Fade, i am sure there will be so much fun.

Modifié par Nizaris1, 06 février 2012 - 07:03 .

#2
ncknck
Posté 08 février 2012 - 04:12

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Mages do not have protections in this game, so building an anti-mage mage, who is supposed to overcome said defenses is rather devoid of meaning. Its basically whoever sees&hits the other first, wins. Manaclash, stun, aura, not really a difference.

#3
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Posté 09 février 2012 - 07:14

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Most mages accompanied by someone else, while we are busy with the mobs, the enemy mages are dangerous

Some quest need us to protect NPCs, there is a high ranking mage who harass those NPCs. Templar simply can't protect those NPCs from magic, but Anti-Mage Mage can.

There are high ranking enemy mages such as Arcane Horrors, even Darkspawn mages are not simple mages. Mostly they are Red rank or Yellow rank.

Darkspawn mages love to cast Curse of Mortality, mind you Templar only can Cleanse Area but not cleanse themselves, if only one of the party member an anti mage there will be a problem. But one Anti-Mage Mage is enough in the party.

Templar rely on stamina to activate anti-mage talent while they also need those stamina for special attack, usually i find out that the are not enough stamina to do both warrior and anti-mage role. One chain-lighting from enemy can drain out stamina in middle game and then must wait for stamina regen. Anti-Mage Mage can directly resist magic and little problem with it, there are a lot of lyrium potion

Modifié par Nizaris1, 09 février 2012 - 07:20 .

#4
Shadow of Light Dragon
Posté 09 février 2012 - 09:10

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Well...the thing is, you don't need a build to be an anti-mage mage. You just need Mana Clash, which will destroy almost every enemy spellcaster in the entire game.

#5
Ferretinabun
Posté 09 février 2012 - 12:31

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I agree with Shadow. An anti-mage mage seems a bit redundant as an entire build.

It's true most enemy groups have one, but only one (bar rare exceptions) spellcaster, and you'll want to take them down first, but there are lots of ways of doing that. Maybe a more useful build would be a single-target lockdown mage, where you focus on disabling the most dangerous enemy in the room, be it mage, elite, or whatever.

#6
Corker
Posté 09 février 2012 - 01:20

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Two other very fast mage-taker-downers besides Mana Clash:

Dog with Overwhelm. Dog moves really fast, reaching casters quickly, and I rarely had a mage get up after being Overwhelmed by him.

Rogue with Combat Stealth and something like Riposte and Flurry, either Zevran or the Warden. I hold the party, Stealth the rogue, place behind caster. Release party, who move toward rogue. Enemies 'turn on,' hit pause, target caster with best stabby-kill rogue ability. I like a Riposte (crit + stun) followed by a Flurry, especially if you've got those passive rogue skills that make every attack from the rear a crit. Mage goes down.

(Of course, rogue is now in the enemy's rear, has amassed a bunch of aggro, and the rest of the team is yonder. I run the rogue really, really fast back to the party after this.)

#7
ncknck
Posté 09 février 2012 - 01:32

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Mana clash is a wasted perk imo. Why would anyone invest 4 perks to voluntarily essentially remove enemy mages from the game. The game already has a disabler on everything. Its called Leliana with scattershot. Scattershot is an autohit area stun, which outranges any mage spell or warrior ability. Which ensures party mages are to fire first. And after that it doesnt really matter. Hit them with glyphs or something. And they are dead.

#8
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Posté 09 février 2012 - 03:02

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Well, this is no spoiler forum, but little spoiler here ..

I find out that blood mages in the ruin at Denerim are tough ones. No matter what, those blood mages will give a challenge. No matter what level i am doing Denerim quest, and what party set up i have, it is not as easy as what i read on forums here...there is always 50-50 chance.

I know you guys arguments in taking out mages in the game, yes there are a lot of ways for that, but you guys sure know where, when and what is there in the game. If want to talk about that then, i have nothing to say...

Shadow wrote...

Well...the thing is, you don't need a build to be an anti-mage mage. You just need Mana Clash, which will destroy almost every enemy spellcaster in the entire game.


Maybe, but it just a build suggestion, something to think about and something to try, it is the player choice anyway to role play.

I am not only suggesting a build but also critic on Templar vs Anti-Mage Mage talent on anti-mage role in the game.

Mages already have anti-magic school, far more effective than Templar themselves, why need Templar to watch over them?

Let say the Circle already have their own "Templar-like" order or something that check on mages, any mage doing wrong the First Enchenter just Mana Clash them...right? Even abominations can be Mana Clashed, why need Templar?

Modifié par Nizaris1, 09 février 2012 - 03:08 .

#9
mikehanna
Posté 09 février 2012 - 04:20

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I see what the OP was wanting to do with an ant-mage mage build. The problem is that it is too specialized to deal with one type of threat, enemy mages or protection from enemy mages.

While the Mana Drain spell chain is a pretty decent one, there are other more efficient ways of eliminating enemy mages. Even with Wynne, I cast Earthquake and knock most enemies to the ground. While they keep getting knocked down and getting up, Lelianna is pelting the enemy mage with arrows (right now my Lelianna has a 40% crit chance and does about 60 damage per hit). Or, I could just have Wynne cast Petrify, then Stonefist to shatter them. Works almost everytime up to Elite enemies.

If you're not specializing as an Arcane Warrior, going with the Spell Shield chain would be the only Spirit school chain I would take. Then it's just a matter of deciding what you want your mage to do. DPS, go with the Primal school; support, go with Creation or Entropy schools.; healer, obviously Creation. Then choose specializations that increase your mage's abilities.

I did a mage build that was Arcane Warrior/Battlemage....nothing could touch me and I stomped just about every enemy through Awakening. With proper spell choices, any mage can be awesome.

#10
Shadow of Light Dragon
Posté 09 février 2012 - 08:47

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ncknck wrote...

Mana clash is a wasted perk imo. Why would anyone invest 4 perks to voluntarily essentially remove enemy mages from the game. The game already has a disabler on everything. Its called Leliana with scattershot. Scattershot is an autohit area stun, which outranges any mage spell or warrior ability. Which ensures party mages are to fire first. And after that it doesnt really matter. Hit them with glyphs or something. And they are dead.


That's why I never personally got Mana Clash. ;)

I either used that insta-kill archery shot (Slayer shot? forget), paralyse + attack, Holy Smite (for the stun effect) + attack, or snuck in a rogue to skewer the mage with a backstab before combat even started.

Nizaris1 wrote...

Maybe, but it just a build suggestion, something to think about and something to try, it is the player choice anyway to role play.


Ah, you want RP suggestions. Well, there is an entire anti-magic branch of magic to start with as you pointed out. I suppose it depends if you're RPing a mage who disables/captures other mages, kills them, tortures them...

I am not only suggesting a build but also critic on Templar vs Anti-Mage Mage talent on anti-mage role in the game.

Mages already have anti-magic school, far more effective than Templar themselves, why need Templar to watch over them?

Let say the Circle already have their own "Templar-like" order or something that check on mages, any mage doing wrong the First Enchenter just Mana Clash them...right? Even abominations can be Mana Clashed, why need Templar?


Mana Clash will usually kill the mage, for starters ;) If you ignore the physical weaponry and military training, the 'special' Templar abilities seem to be more about resisting magic, cleansing its effects and draining mana than actual harm. Theoretically, a mage would be at more risk against another mage or abomination, and especially against a demon. While mages are powerful, they are vulnerable. Templars are supposed to protect mages from that sort of thing :)

Also, the Tranquil make a lot of money for the Circles. We wouldn't want to kill all rogue mages.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 09 février 2012 - 08:59 .

#11
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Posté 10 février 2012 - 06:19

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mikehanna

While the Mana Drain spell chain is a pretty decent one, there are other more efficient ways of eliminating enemy mages. Even with Wynne, I cast Earthquake and knock most enemies to the ground. While they keep getting knocked down and getting up, Lelianna is pelting the enemy mage with arrows (right now my Lelianna has a 40% crit chance and does about 60 damage per hit). Or, I could just have Wynne cast Petrify, then Stonefist to shatter them. Works almost everytime up to Elite enemies.

If you're not specializing as an Arcane Warrior, going with the Spell Shield chain would be the only Spirit school chain I would take. Then it's just a matter of deciding what you want your mage to do. DPS, go with the Primal school; support, go with Creation or Entropy schools.; healer, obviously Creation. Then choose specializations that increase your mage's abilities.


That is what i have mention in the first post. Anti-Mage Mage can be built in different ways, The point is, there is no need for a Templar in the party. Alistair being a Templar is irrelevant, it just a wasted 4 talent point for him. It is better for him to be a Champion when we first meet him in Ostagar and fit a role of a tank. The whole point of this thread is about that, about how irrelevant a Templar is in the game.

It is also irrelevant if the non-mage PC learn Templar ability also, because we can customize our mage companion to be an excellent anti-mage.

Shadow...


Mana Clash will usually kill the mage, for starters ;) If you ignore the physical weaponry and military training, the 'special' Templar abilities seem to be more about resisting magic, cleansing its effects and draining mana than actual harm. Theoretically, a mage would be at more risk against another mage or abomination, and especially against a demon. While mages are powerful, they are vulnerable. Templars are supposed to protect mages from that sort of thing :)

Also, the Tranquil make a lot of money for the Circles. We wouldn't want to kill all rogue mages.


Templar...protecting mages???? lols i just can't compute that

In the Harrowing, Templar put demons into an apprentice, they give meals to the demons, i don't know the whole demon-Templar contract but that what happen. And if the apprentice can't resist the demon, they simply kill the apprentice. That is not protecting in my personal view.

First Enchanter said, in Connor case, if someone willingly become possessed (become abomination) then they can simply get into the Fade and kill the demon, but if forced to become abomination, they have no option but kill the person/mage.

So we can see that "abomination threat" is a lie, it is only a threat when mages are forced to become one. If not, there is an option to kill demon in the Fade as a cure (exorcism so called). What happen in the Harrowing is the Templar actually have contract with demons, forced them into an apprentice, if the apprentice failed they kill him/her.

And i also strongly think that the Tranquils are Chantry slaves, they don't make money for the Circle but for the Chantry. Do you think the Chantry will allow the Circle to become wealthy? Money is power...

Modifié par Nizaris1, 10 février 2012 - 06:21 .

#12
Zaxarus
Posté 10 février 2012 - 07:19

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I think Templars have a double-role:
- protect Fereldan from Mages
- protect the Mages
That most of them are too fanatic about their belief (with the chantry deviating from the original andrastian belief as it seems) and forget the second part is another story.

A question i'm actually wondering about is the nature of templar abilities. They are not mages themselves but with lyrium enhancing their abilities it seems that these cleanse/smite-things are some type of magical abilities themselves.
Shouldn't it be possible for mages to learn to counter them, to defend against them? Sufficient appeal to work on a defense mechanism is surely existing and why should templar abilities be so special (compared to 'normal' spells or the abilities of warriors and rogues) that there is no defense possible?

#13
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Posté 10 février 2012 - 02:25

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Zaxarus wrote...

I think Templars have a double-role:
- protect Fereldan from Mages
- protect the Mages
That most of them are too fanatic about their belief (with the chantry deviating from the original andrastian belief as it seems) and forget the second part is another story.

A question i'm actually wondering about is the nature of templar abilities. They are not mages themselves but with lyrium enhancing their abilities it seems that these cleanse/smite-things are some type of magical abilities themselves.
Shouldn't it be possible for mages to learn to counter them, to defend against them? Sufficient appeal to work on a defense mechanism is surely existing and why should templar abilities be so special (compared to 'normal' spells or the abilities of warriors and rogues) that there is no defense possible?


ser Bryant in the Lothering Chantry say :-

"Usually our role is to protect the Chantry and seeking out unsaction mages...."

There is no "protect mages" there, they are officially mages enemy, they are an ANTI-MAGE. But the problem is, their anti-mage ability is not on par with mages own anti-mage ability. Makes them like insignificant to be existed in the first place, there is no need for them to be existed. The mages already have excellent anti-mage school.

The Templar can't handle the abominations anyway, as far as i see, my mage can kill abominations easily...this make me wonder if the Templar really an anti-mage to be feared of also wonder all these things about the abomination threat that the Chantry being propagate all the time is true. Even the largest abomination in the game, Uldred, 4 person in any party set up can beat him, the entire army of Templars can't.

Another thing puzzle me, if the Templar really what they seems to be, why they are easily fall with desire demons? Isn't resisting the thing is what they are trained for? They become abomination themselves (possessed Templar), they should also being made Tranquil. Broken Circle prove that.

And not only that, they are fanatic with those Andraste things, but they themselves don't know where Andraste remains is.....you see, their fanaticism is baseless. If you ask Muslims "where is prophet Muhammad grave?", Muslims will answer "in Al-Nabawi Mosqe, at Medinah, Arabia". If ask a Christian about Jesus place or whatever they will answer "Jeruslem". But if you ask the Chantry and the Templars, "where is your prophet grave/remains?" they answer "we don't know!"

My point is, if the Templar is to be intentionally an anti-mage in the game, there is no need for anti-magic spells in the game, and it is far better talents than Templar talents, it makes Templar lost it's significant and irrelevant. If i want to choose, i choose to play Anti-Mage Mage rather than making my warrior a Templar for anti-magic role-playing.

Modifié par Nizaris1, 12 février 2012 - 04:00 .

#14
Corker
Posté 10 février 2012 - 04:27

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Nizaris1 wrote...

That is what i have mention in the first post. Anti-Mage Mage can be built in different ways, The point is, there is no need for a Templar in the party. Alistair being a Templar is irrelevant, it just a wasted 4 talent point for him. It is better for him to be a Champion when we first meet him in Ostagar and fit a role of a tank. The whole point of this thread is about that, about how irrelevant a Templar is in the game.

It is also irrelevant if the non-mage PC learn Templar ability also, because we can customize our mage companion to be an excellent anti-mage.


All the classes and specs are irrelevant if you look at it that way.  Folks have soloed the game on every difficulty with every sort of character, thereby showing that there *isn't* one that you just can't do without. Templar, Spirit Healer, Assassin - they're all 'irrelevant', in that you can win the game without them.

#15
Gotholhorakh
Posté 10 février 2012 - 06:19

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Zaxarus wrote...

I think Templars have a double-role:
- protect Fereldan from Mages
- protect the Mages



The "protection" of the mages that they do is similar to the "protection" Rome used to do to people who might misbehave.

Imprisonment and control. No protection, except against you.

#16
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Posté 12 février 2012 - 11:20

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Anyway, i have try it myself, this build, lols...it is fine, happy to see abominations killed with single Mana Clash, but Arcane Horror always resist and then it become chaotic, Arcane Horror magic is somewhat deadly than any mage, i reload to test again, it resist again...it resist many times, i wonder if it is because my spell power not enough or Arcane Horror just can resist it? (my magic is 33 + 2 Spirit Healer bonus + 10 SP Spell Might at level 7)

Edit : I replay before reaching level 7, and increase magic (ignore Will at all), buying + SP items, solve most Mana Clash resist problem :)

Modifié par Nizaris1, 15 février 2012 - 06:15 .

#17
chrcol
Posté 15 février 2012 - 08:52

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thanks for the guide Nizaris1 I appreciate if noone else does for sure.

The problem with the "use mana clash"

is it isnt obtainable very quick as is tier 4.
have to get 3 spells I dont really have interest in to get to it.

I guess if i just dupe the spell books its not a problem tho :P

I wouldnt mind seeing more anti mage tips that assume the player is low level so things like arrow of slaying and mana clash not available.

scattershot is also a high level only ability and takes time to get off, enemy mages are extremely fast,
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