Aller au contenu

Photo

ME3 Moves Beyond a Niche Market


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
140 réponses à ce sujet

#76
Chuvvy

Chuvvy
  • Members
  • 9 686 messages

Blacklash93 wrote...

Then say your peace, suggest what Bioware could do better in the future, and then move on. Seeing it being dwelled on is rather pathetic, really. It's just a videogame.


By that logic, you're just as pathetic as the "haters". You write walls of text defending a company you already say doesn't care what people think about it.

Just to be clear, I don't think either side is pathetic. I just think they like a thing, the "haters" are usually the biggest fans, they criticize, because they care. And when you like something allot, the smaller things become allot bigger. To some people anyway, some people just except it, some people bring it up in the hopes that it will be fixed. There's right or wrong way to enjoy a thing.

Modifié par Slidell505, 07 février 2012 - 04:03 .


#77
WizenSlinky0

WizenSlinky0
  • Members
  • 3 032 messages

Slidell505 wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Then say your peace, suggest what Bioware could do better in the future, and then move on. Seeing it being dwelled on is rather pathetic, really. It's just a videogame.


By that logic, you're just as pathetic as the "haters". You write walls of text defending a company you already say doesn't care what people think about it.

Just to be clear, I don't think either side is pathetic. I just think they like a thing, the "haters" are usually the biggest fans, they criticize, because they care. And when you like something allot, the smaller things become allot bigger. To some people anyway, some people just except it, some people bring it up in the hopes that it will be fixed. There's right or wrong way to enjoy a thing.


I draw a distinct difference between people who have criticisms and people who are behaving like pricks.

That goes for both sides, of course.

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 07 février 2012 - 04:16 .


#78
tetrisblock4x1

tetrisblock4x1
  • Members
  • 1 781 messages
Mass Effect 2 already plays like just a bit of a variation of Gears of War. I think that the design goal is to make Mass Effect as similar to Gears as they can while making it unique enough so that it stands out a bit more prominently.

#79
Chuvvy

Chuvvy
  • Members
  • 9 686 messages

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

I draw a distinct difference between people who criticisms and people who are behaving like pricks.

That goes for both sides, of course.


That's good, unfortunately, allot of people don't. I've seen plenty of well written post bombarded by the bioware defense force. Throwing insults at someone who brought up something that annoneyed them, in a calm way.

#80
Pee Jae

Pee Jae
  • Members
  • 4 085 messages

Bekkael wrote...

I think it manages a delicate balancing act between shooter and RPG. That annoys some shooter fans who don't like to RP, and also pisses off some RPers who feel it is too stripped down.

I think if fans of both genres gave it an honest chance, they might discover they liked it.

For my part, I think BioWare has done a really great job with this series. I am an ambassador of Mass Effect and try to get all my friends to give it a go. ;)


This.^ The rest of this thread only boils down to opinions. Unless one of you already has the game and played it in full.

#81
WizenSlinky0

WizenSlinky0
  • Members
  • 3 032 messages

Slidell505 wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

I draw a distinct difference between people who criticisms and people who are behaving like pricks.

That goes for both sides, of course.


That's good, unfortunately, allot of people don't. I've seen plenty of well written post bombarded by the bioware defense force. Throwing insults at someone who brought up something that annoneyed them, in a calm way.


We all begin with good intentions...what we do with those intentions afterwards is anybodies guess.

#82
Chuvvy

Chuvvy
  • Members
  • 9 686 messages

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Mass Effect 2 already plays like just a bit of a variation of Gears of War. I think that the design goal is to make Mass Effect as similar to Gears as they can while making it unique enough so that it stands out a bit more prominently.



I don't see what the problem with that is. Gears has very solid gameplay, and it takes a good amount of stratagy and team cordination to be good at it. Gears gets allot of crap for its meatheaded characters and story, which I understand, but the gameplay is very refined. At least it was in 1 and 2, I can't speak for the third as I haven't played it, but from what I've heard it's good, save for the sawn off shotguns.

Modifié par Slidell505, 07 février 2012 - 04:19 .


#83
someguy1231

someguy1231
  • Members
  • 1 120 messages

Terror_K wrote...

So, it's perfectly fine to just screw with the integrity of your series and retool it for the masses in order to sell out and make more money? That's pretty much what you're saying. It's also a complete fallacy. Mass Effect was plenty profitable. It's not about profit so much as greed now. Why keep making a game for sci-fi geeks and RPG nerds and turn a reasonable profit when you can sell out and dumb it down for the masses and make a killing essentially. Some of the decisions they've made since ME2 makes it pretty clear that the ME universe can go to hell if it means selling more copies. The rubber-stamping of Deception pretty much proves how much they really care about the integrity of a once great universe and setting.


No, what I was saying is that a game shouldn't solely concern itself with pandering to established fans. You're putting words in my mouth. And it's funny how you imply that "sci-fi geeks and RPG nerds" aren't part of the "masses". I suppose that the "masses" weren't responsible for making Skyrim the 3rd-best selling game of 2011, or making Star Wars and Avatar some of the highest-grossing films of all time. And don't bother trying to pull the "No True Scotsman" fallacy on those.

The omni-blade isn't so bad so much as the way they harp on about it: jerking it off like a holographic phallus and seemingly every opportunity. It's for ME3 what the chainsaw bayonet is for Gears: a forced statement about how "teh badassorz!!1" the game is, and God forbid we be allowed to forget about the thing. It's just done in such a childish, forced manner it makes me roll my eyes and facepalm all the time.


All we've seen of the omni-blade is Shepherd on the game cover, a few clips in the trailers, and the crossover promo with Kingdoms of Amalur. You must very low tolerance for it if you think that constitutes "jerking it off like a holographic phallus". Granted, it has nowhere near the status of the chainsaw bayonet for GoW, but I've never gotten the impression they're trying to make it ME's equivalent of that. You're just projecting your own hatred of it onto Bioware and making false accusations.

Halo and Gears or war are essentially just shooters that happen to have a sci-fi backdrop, and not what I'd call proper hard sci-fi at all. Gears' story and setting is thinner than water soup. You know full well I'm talking about things like Blade Runner, Dune, Alien, Star Trek, Babylon 5, etc. when I'm talking about what "sci-fi geeks" enjoy and the type of audience the original game went for. Now it's aimed more at the Michael Bay generation.


Here's that "No True Scotsman" fallacy I mentioned earlier. Like it or not, TK, Halo and GoW are sci-fi. Halo, in particular, has been described as the "new Star Wars" by many, and if you think it's something that "sci-fi geeks" don't enjoy, then you're even more out-of-touch with reality than I thought. Just because they aren't sci-fi to your liking doesn't change that. As for Gears, I remember you saying in another thread that you've only played the first game. I've played all three, and believe me, the second and third games have far more story than the first. The third game, in particular, has a revelation toward the end that completely changed my outlook on the whole depiction of the main antagonists. In addition, Gears and Halo both have a story thick enough to support numerous comics and novels, just like ME does.

You claim they merely have a "sci-fi backdrop"? What is that supposed to mean? Shooters can't be pure "sci-fi" to you? You mention Alien and Star Trek as things that are "sci-fi" to you. Well then, how do you feel about the "Star Trek: Elite Force" games , or the upcoming "Aliens: Colonial Marines" game? Are either of those not "sci-fi" to you solely because they're first-person shooters? And why do you say that "hard" sci-fi is the "proper" type, when Star Trek is in fact on of the softest varieties of sci-fi? Your arguments have more holes in them than swiss cheese. Spare me your philosophical claptrap about what is or isn't "proper" Sci-Fi. In the end, you're just saying trying to pass off your subjective opinions as objective facts. "Shooter with a sci-fi backdrop" is pretty much the same as saying "sci-fi shooter" anyway.

Now it's just becoming the same brown mush as almost everything else and seems to be becoming more mindless, action-oriented and less mature as a result, just to pander to today's target demographic who want Michael Bay'sploshuns and fast, action-packed gameplay without having to think too much or have too much story or complex RPG gameplay get in the way.


Your "brown" accusations are wildly exaggerated. Halo has had a colorful palette from the start, and Gears became progressively more colorful in each game. The third one is easily as colorful as Uncharted or Crysis. The modern military games, like CoD are Battlefield, are also far more colorful than you give them credit for (Rio levels in MW2, Paris levels in BF3, etc). And if you think that those games don't require thinking, remember that their primary appeal is in their multiplayer, where thinking is obviously required to perform well (except for the occassional cheater).

As for "mindless, action-oriented Michael Bay'sploshuns", let's take a look at the trailers for some of those games.
www.youtube.com/watch
Gears of War 3 "Ashes to Ashes" - clearly this game just has "mindless" written all over it <_<
www.youtube.com/watch
Gears of War 3 "Dust to Dust" - No emotion or maturity whatsoever <_<
www.youtube.com/watch
Halo Reach "Deliver Hope" - Yup, nothing here but mindless action and explosions. Bay would be proud <_<

Perhaps you should do some more research before you make such blind accusations.

#84
incinerator950

incinerator950
  • Members
  • 5 617 messages

Icinix wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

I'm not, after losing Lucas Arts, I don't expect to last another two to five years. Don't care if I'm wrong, I usually am. Unfortunately, bad things happen when I'm right.


Then in the kindest, nicest possible way....be wrong more :P


You have no idea.

#85
incinerator950

incinerator950
  • Members
  • 5 617 messages
@someguy

Apologies for not directly quoting you, you have a large message and I'm inebriated a little at the moment. I will say the design in forethought for said games is given less credit. However, for being a player of most of said games, you are giving a little more credit. Or, in a sense of the term, you are giving credit to the game which is worsened in the fact their communities suffer in spect. FPS's suffer that a lot. Mainly because CoD established a competitive area for sitting in areas, taking the least amount of effort to do things to get more kills. Really, its bad for a game where you can describe to new people that holding the trigger down from spawn to finish has a 50% chance of getting you a kill from four to MW 2.5. BF3 is slightly better, but doesn't take much more to put the game under.

I didn't play GoW3, but from what I've seen, you did hit the nail in the head with a hammer.

Wish you put Space Marine up there.

#86
AgitatedLemon

AgitatedLemon
  • Members
  • 6 294 messages

incinerator950 wrote...

@someguy

Apologies for not directly quoting you, you have a large message and I'm inebriated a little at the moment. I will say the design in forethought for said games is given less credit. However, for being a player of most of said games, you are giving a little more credit. Or, in a sense of the term, you are giving credit to the game which is worsened in the fact their communities suffer in spect. FPS's suffer that a lot. Mainly because CoD established a competitive area for sitting in areas, taking the least amount of effort to do things to get more kills. Really, its bad for a game where you can describe to new people that holding the trigger down from spawn to finish has a 50% chance of getting you a kill from four to MW 2.5. BF3 is slightly better, but doesn't take much more to put the game under.

I didn't play GoW3, but from what I've seen, you did hit the nail in the head with a hammer.

Wish you put Space Marine up there.


Ok...

Call of Duty is not the most skill intensive game on the market, but it IS more than-

1. Point
2. Hold trigger
3. Farm teh killz
4. Hit button for tacitical nuke

#87
incinerator950

incinerator950
  • Members
  • 5 617 messages

AgitatedLemon wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

@someguy

Apologies for not directly quoting you, you have a large message and I'm inebriated a little at the moment. I will say the design in forethought for said games is given less credit. However, for being a player of most of said games, you are giving a little more credit. Or, in a sense of the term, you are giving credit to the game which is worsened in the fact their communities suffer in spect. FPS's suffer that a lot. Mainly because CoD established a competitive area for sitting in areas, taking the least amount of effort to do things to get more kills. Really, its bad for a game where you can describe to new people that holding the trigger down from spawn to finish has a 50% chance of getting you a kill from four to MW 2.5. BF3 is slightly better, but doesn't take much more to put the game under.

I didn't play GoW3, but from what I've seen, you did hit the nail in the head with a hammer.

Wish you put Space Marine up there.


Ok...

Call of Duty is not the most skill intensive game on the market, but it IS more than-

1. Point
2. Hold trigger
3. Farm teh killz
4. Hit button for tacitical nuke


I can't agree with you when I've been playing since CoDMW.  Sorry, If my friends kids can get kills by holding two of the buttons without their parents playing the analogues, its not as intuitive as you're trying to support it.

Modifié par incinerator950, 07 février 2012 - 04:47 .


#88
Blacklash93

Blacklash93
  • Members
  • 4 154 messages

Slidell505 wrote...
By that logic, you're just as pathetic as the "haters". You write walls of text defending a company you already say doesn't care what people think about it.

I never said Bioware doesn't care. I'm just saying beating them over the head via quippy sarcasm and rhetoric isn't proper criticism and isn't going to change anything.

#89
Cainne Chapel

Cainne Chapel
  • Members
  • 2 301 messages
Honestly any game will have its fans and detractors, more popular games will just have more and be more vocal.

That said, I'm not that great at FPS, do I play them? Time to time, but the competitiveness CAN frustrate me at times, so I dont bother. Simple. That said I have absolutely NO hate for COD or BF3, I have plenty of friends that enjoy them and I consider these guys "nerds" hardly dudebros. Hell one regularly dresses up as Kenpachi from Bleach.... much to my dismay :).

That said, we really should stop with the labels and what not, I mean, honestly speaking here, next to Mass Effect wanna know what my number one game is every year?

WWE wrestling games. There I said it. Frikken wrestling games.

Different strokes people!

#90
Blacklash93

Blacklash93
  • Members
  • 4 154 messages

Lucy_Glitter wrote...
Lurking on these forums is getting really annoying to do. I'm sick of all the fanwars about ME3 and Cerberus. ME3 lovers, accept that some people enjoyed Renegade in some playthroughs and found some of their decisions to be fair. Accept that the writers have retconned EVERY renegade decision. Accept that renegade did not mean evil and Cerberus did not mean evil until ME3. 

I don't think there's anything wrong with the renegade playstyle, although its fans annoy me because they constantly take the high-ground and call paragons idiots.

Bioware didn't retcon renegade decisions. The Collector Base was still saved. The old Council is still dead and is replaced by a new one. The Krogan on the Citadel probably still thinks there's fish in the Presidium lakes. The Rachni Queen is still dead and the Rachni will never be the species they once were. You can consider how Bioware dealt with them as cheap, but you can't call it a retcon.

Renegade has never meant evil and Cerberus was just stupid and misguided from the beginning.

#91
tetrisblock4x1

tetrisblock4x1
  • Members
  • 1 781 messages
Honestly, CoD is incredibly simple. There is certainly some hyberbole in regards to just how simple it is, but comparing neo-cod to the likes of Quake Live or ArmA 2 would be like comparing playing with lego to quantum engineering. The tactical depth of CoD is a puddle, and even the best CoD gamers are nothing compared to Quake legends like Fatal1ty, Rapha or Cooller.

Modifié par tetrisblock4x1, 07 février 2012 - 04:58 .


#92
AgitatedLemon

AgitatedLemon
  • Members
  • 6 294 messages

incinerator950 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

@someguy

Apologies for not directly quoting you, you have a large message and I'm inebriated a little at the moment. I will say the design in forethought for said games is given less credit. However, for being a player of most of said games, you are giving a little more credit. Or, in a sense of the term, you are giving credit to the game which is worsened in the fact their communities suffer in spect. FPS's suffer that a lot. Mainly because CoD established a competitive area for sitting in areas, taking the least amount of effort to do things to get more kills. Really, its bad for a game where you can describe to new people that holding the trigger down from spawn to finish has a 50% chance of getting you a kill from four to MW 2.5. BF3 is slightly better, but doesn't take much more to put the game under.

I didn't play GoW3, but from what I've seen, you did hit the nail in the head with a hammer.

Wish you put Space Marine up there.


Ok...

Call of Duty is not the most skill intensive game on the market, but it IS more than-

1. Point
2. Hold trigger
3. Farm teh killz
4. Hit button for tacitical nuke


I can't agree with you when I've been playing since CoDMW.  Sorry, If my friends kids can get kills by holding two of the buttons without their parents playing the analogues, its not as intuitive as you're trying to support it.


I can already tell that your friends kids aren't getting kills that way.

Admittedly, the last CoD title to have ANY skill factor in regards to the competitive MP was WaW, and that's going on 4 years old. The MW games actually are the 4 steps I listed above. I should have clarified.

edit: And even on WaW the skill factor was stretched thin, via Juggernaut, the MP40, and vehicles. Everything else was actually balanced decently, except for 1 useless perk in each tier.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 07 février 2012 - 05:08 .


#93
Chuvvy

Chuvvy
  • Members
  • 9 686 messages

someguy1231 wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch
Halo Reach "Deliver Hope" - Yup, nothing here but mindless action and explosions. Bay would be proud <_<


Brilliant trailer.

Modifié par Slidell505, 07 février 2012 - 05:09 .


#94
Gatt9

Gatt9
  • Members
  • 1 748 messages

Had-to-say wrote...

A niche market is defined as product aimed at satisfying specific market needs. It is usually aimed at a small targeted demographic with a specific need for that product.

I think the average gamer is more into instant gratification. That gamer may not like the deep interaction of a game like Mass Effect. I think Mass Effect has a player base of about 3 million, not bad, but not where I'd like to see it. I think ME is better than 98% of the games available.

Do you think the Mass Effect franchise is too niche, therefore doesn't appeal to common people?

For a game to have so much critical acclaim, it doesn't reach the large bottom base of average gamers. Why is that and how would you fix it?


Two things you need to keep in mind when you are contemplating this topic.

First...

  The average gamer is a Myth.  He/She does not exist.  Not the way it's defined.  The gaming industry treats the market as if there's some venn diagram where the center is a giant circle of "Average gamer",  surrounded by smaller blobs of "Niche gamers".  This is actually false.

The assumption is that the group that bought Call of Duty (Half-Life 2,  Final Fantasy 7,  Warcraft 2,  Starcraft,  Grand Theft Auto,  etc),  is some giant group of people out there that will only play some specific type of game.  Today it's Call of Duty,  in the years past,  it was each of those games I listed.  They consistently assume that these people are just lurking,  unseen,  and suddenly some game makes them all pop up. 

They then assume normal sales are just "Niche" groups,  and the game wasn't "Mainstream enough".

That's not how it actually works.

That "Average gamer" is just the same as the rest of us.  He's playing the game he likes.  All of those games sold big numbers,  not because they tapped the mythical "Average/Casual gamer" market,  but because those games were great.  It was a perfect storm of word of mouth,  combined with a game that hit on all 8 cylinders.

These people buy a game here,  and a game there,  but they don't just gravitate to one and only one type of game.  They play what looks fun,  or what their friends told them was fun.  Just like you,  me,  and everyone else on the board.

The assumption that if you just make a game like X,  all of these people are going to suddenly appear,  has never worked in the 30 years of video game history.  There's never been a case where making your game just like (Insert popular game) has resulted in an enourmous number of sales. 

As to why Mass Effect didn't reach the point where it became incredibly popular,  it's because the game really isn't all that great.  The writing was debatable,  and the combat weak in comparison to modern techniques.  It was a good game,  sure,  but it was not a great game.  Which leads us to...

Second...

"Critical acclaim" is essentially bought and paid for today.

A gaming website needs advertisers to pay them for banner ads,  and it needs people to generate traffic so those ads generate money.  People do not give sites revenue,  advertisers are their only source of income.

Contrast this to 10 years ago,  advertisers paid magazines to buy page space for ads,  but people paid them for the magazine.  So even without the advertisers,  the magazines still generated revenue.

So the only way a site gets money is if a company buys advertising space,  and people visit it to read the free content.

So how does a website get people to come?  By previews,  and timely reviews of games.  People go to get the latest information on games,  not information weeks or months old.

To get these previews,  and timely reviews,  advertisers must be willing to let a site see the game early.  If the advertisers don't,  then people don't come to the site,  and the site folds because it's not generating revenue.

So the advertiser is the source of the revenue,  and the source of the content.  Which means the site is completely dependent on the advertiser.  If they make the advertiser mad,  the advertiser takes away the means to generate revenue.

Bad reviews and bad previews make advertisers mad.

Hence why big company's games are *always* "Critically acclaimed".  The company is paying the bills,  so you don't give them bad press.

It's to the point today where if you're the lowest reviewer on metacritic,  some companies will "Suggest" you change your score to "Be more inline with everyone else".

So in short,  the "Critical acclaim" is completely meaningless.  It's essentially like asking a company's marketing department for ratings.

Good article on the subject...

http://www.vg247.com...d-our-way-back/

#95
Eckswhyzed

Eckswhyzed
  • Members
  • 1 889 messages

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...

ME probably has a bigger player base, as there's plenty of people who sold their copies of their two games to Gamestop and there's plenty of people who bought those games used, and those who initially sold their copies are planning on buying ME3. But that's irrelevant.

Regardless, publishers and developers need to stop trying to get every game to hit GTA and CoD numbers. If your game does, awesome, but if it doesn't, then it's assumed that they wasted their time. Look at Homefront, for example. THQ expected it to be the next Call of Duty, so they wasted 50 million in advertising on a game that, while good, wasn't polished enough to challenge CoD. The game sold something like 4 million, and the studio that made the game was killed.

....

What they shouldn't do is bloat the game budget to draw in more people on the dev team so they can work on the game so it can hit CoD numbers. What they shouldn't do is run the commercials for the game 60 times a day on Comedy Central and the Sci-Fi Channel. It's a waste of money. Mass Effect is niche--though it really isn't since games don't sell 3 million if their niche--because they're not being advertised to people who don't know about the games; the games are constantly advertised to people who're already aware of the product.


Listen to this wise and thoughtful person.

Which brings me to one of my gripes with the current games industry. I am in the minority on these forums who actually enjoys Call of Duty (and other shooters for that matter). But I am perfectly satisfied with Call of Duty being what it is. I don't need any other games to blatantly imitate parts of it (cough Battlefield 3 single player cough) in hopes of getting similar sales figures.


Another thing to note is that the gaming industry isn't as big as it likes to make itself out to be (wait, this sentence does make sense:P). It's only gigantic franchises like Call of Duty, World of Warcraft and say, Madden that truly "mainstream" in the sense that if you talk to random people on the street they will know what you're talking about.

Modifié par Eckswhyzed, 07 février 2012 - 05:31 .


#96
Guest_Catch This Fade_*

Guest_Catch This Fade_*
  • Guests

t_skwerl wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

I think it manages a delicate balancing act between shooter and RPG. That annoys some shooter fans who don't like to RP, and also pisses off some RPers who feel it is too stripped down.

I think if fans of both genres gave it an honest chance, they might discover they liked it.

For my part, I think BioWare has done a really great job with this series. I am an ambassador of Mass Effect and try to get all my friends to give it a go. ;)


This.^ The rest of this thread only boils down to opinions. Unless one of you already has the game and played it in full.

And Bekkael's post is different? 

#97
Yuqi

Yuqi
  • Members
  • 3 023 messages
The LEdgend of Zelda Ocarina of Time was streamlined and butchered. The problem is RPG's are more for IMO intelligent/patient gamers.Eventuallly COD will lose it's prominence, as there is only so much room for creativity in games like COD.

Modifié par Yuqi, 07 février 2012 - 05:53 .


#98
Guest_Catch This Fade_*

Guest_Catch This Fade_*
  • Guests
Intelligent/patient gamers play Hitman tbh.

#99
Chuvvy

Chuvvy
  • Members
  • 9 686 messages

jreezy wrote...

Intelligent/patient gamers play Hitman tbh.


I love hitman, so very much. Great ost as well.

Modifié par Slidell505, 07 février 2012 - 05:59 .


#100
What a Succulent Ass

What a Succulent Ass
  • Banned
  • 5 568 messages

Yuqi wrote...

The LEdgend of Zelda Ocarina of Time

What in the world does this have to do with anything?