109 réponses à ce sujet

[T0rin3]

themaxzero wrote...

T0rin3 wrote...
As an aside, I dislike that people claim that mods (which are completely voluntary) are a fix to issues like these. They aren't. A fix via an official patch is a much better step in the direction of forcing people to not use forcefield in this way.

Who the hell do you think you are? FORCING them? I mean seriously? If YOU have such an issue why does everyone else have to change? Wouldn't it make sense for YOU to change?

Everyone wants to tell everyone else how to play their game!

Is force fielding anyworse then putting some FR on a tank and have him standing outside melee range taunting? Even the Arch Demon goes done to this (yay for Corruption Helm!).

How about you play your game and i'll play mine eh?

No.

[T0rin3]

Imryll wrote...
If there are folks who can't beat encounters without forcefielding their tank turning on the god mode cheat, better that they have the option. I'll continue not to forcefield mine turn on god mode--and to use a mixture of classes in my party.  Cause that gives me both more interesting tactics and varied party banter. 

Well, yes, but let's not make it too easy for them to disguise their abuse of the game as legitimate play.

[Seneva]

I've seen Force Field mentioned quite a few times but as of yet I still have to discover why people "hate" it or think it's "exploiting" or "abusing" mechanics.



I've completed the game a few times already (now playing a Dalish Rogue Archer) and never used Force Field, Morrigan usually sits in the camp. I've not played a Mage origin yet.

[T0rin3]

Basically you get a tank character (some warrior, alistaire or shale usually), get them to spam aggro generating abilities (as well as use aggro "aura" effects such as threaten and stoneheart) and once they have the unbreakable attention of every enemy on the screen, put forcefield on them to make them invincible. So, while 10 skeletons beat on your invincible tank character, your party is free to proceed as they please with no resistance to speak of.

[GlassRain]

Think I'm the only one that wants a patch to allow casting crushing prison on your own party members instead. Throwing force field on a tank that just taunted followed by a prison spell would be nice. Even with a patch that "fixes" force field I'd like to be able to clear my force field casts with prison if needed.

[themaxzero]

T0rin3 wrote...

Imryll wrote...
If there are folks who can't beat encounters without forcefielding their tank turning on the god mode cheat, better that they have the option. I'll continue not to forcefield mine turn on god mode--and to use a mixture of classes in my party.  Cause that gives me both more interesting tactics and varied party banter. 

Well, yes, but let's not make it too easy for them to disguise their abuse of the game as legitimate play.

Who says its abuse? You? I haven't seen a single Bioware post on this yet. I don't expect to see it changed either.

If you don't like it patch instead of telling other people how to play.

[themaxzero]

GlassRain wrote...

Think I'm the only one that wants a patch to allow casting crushing prison on your own party members instead. Throwing force field on a tank that just taunted followed by a prison spell would be nice. Even with a patch that "fixes" force field I'd like to be able to clear my force field casts with prison if needed.

Agreed, i'm all for more options for all types of players.

For casual gamers (who probably don't even know these forums exist) maybe they do need the Force Field as it currently is.

But i'm sure Bioware is a smart enough company to know not to base game decisions too much on forums whines.

[T0rin3]

themaxzero wrote...

T0rin3 wrote...

Imryll wrote...
If there are folks who can't beat encounters without forcefielding their tank turning on the god mode cheat, better that they have the option. I'll continue not to forcefield mine turn on god mode--and to use a mixture of classes in my party.  Cause that gives me both more interesting tactics and varied party banter. 

Well, yes, but let's not make it too easy for them to disguise their abuse of the game as legitimate play.

Who says its abuse? You? I haven't seen a single Bioware post on this yet. I don't expect to see it changed either.

If you don't like it patch instead of telling other people how to play.

I am rather confident that we will see this changed. Until then, no sense in having a useless argument with the 1 guy in the world who is disillusioned enough to think that this tactic is somehow legitimate.

Modifié par T0rin3, 24 novembre 2009 - 06:47 .

[Seneva]

T0rin3 wrote...

Basically you get a tank character (some warrior, alistaire or shale usually), get them to spam aggro generating abilities (as well as use aggro "aura" effects such as threaten and stoneheart) and once they have the unbreakable attention of every enemy on the screen, put forcefield on them to make them invincible. So, while 10 skeletons beat on your invincible tank character, your party is free to proceed as they please with no resistance to speak of.

Thank you for the information. At any rate, if you actually have to resort to use such tactics then perhaps it's not the spell that's at fault here but the player that needs "fixing"

[gurugeorge]

FF-ing tank tactic is gorgonzola - nerf plx. It would be nice to use as an emergency button for the tank, occasionally, but it's immersion breaking to see mobs trying to bust something that obviously cannot be busted, so OP's idea is just right. FF on dangerous mobs (e.g. emissaries) while dealing with adds is a legitimate tactic, and shouldn't be touched.

[T0rin3]

Yes, well, that is pretty much a given, but sometimes, people need to be saved from themselves. And I do not put it past Bioware to fix what seems to be a blatant bug (the lack of aggro wipe on force field) on a preeminent spell that sees such wide use and abuse across their universe of players. When players come together in a community (such as this one), and compare tactics and learn from each other and make their voices heard, that does, regardless of what you may think, filter through to direct or indirect changes in game updates. If voices are heard loud enough, if the right things are brought to the attention of the game developers, it will not go un-addressed forever, unless of course for some ridiculous reason, forcefield is working as expected.



Leave it up to the players though, and the abuse of forcefield remains an omnipresent tactic that effectively ruins any challenge in the game. If that is what people want, there is a mode for that, it's called god mode.

[themaxzero]

T0rin3 wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

T0rin3 wrote...

Imryll wrote...
If there are folks who can't beat encounters without forcefielding their tank turning on the god mode cheat, better that they have the option. I'll continue not to forcefield mine turn on god mode--and to use a mixture of classes in my party.  Cause that gives me both more interesting tactics and varied party banter. 

Well, yes, but let's not make it too easy for them to disguise their abuse of the game as legitimate play.

Who says its abuse? You? I haven't seen a single Bioware post on this yet. I don't expect to see it changed either.

If you don't like it patch instead of telling other people how to play.

I am rather confident that we will see this changed. Until then, no sense in having a useless argument with the 1 guy in the world who is disillusioned enough to think that this tactic is somehow legitimate.

Well if you think about it all the people who support don't need to post since the game is already right for them. Happy players don't need to post.

Wether its nerfed or not won't effect me I have beaten then game both with and without. Then again I have been playing computer games for over 20 years and this stuff is old hat. But for a lot of casual gamers who are not as experienced DAO is already quite difficult.

From both the official and non official fixes there is definately a trend to making the game easier not make it making it harder. While its possible they will change it I think its unlikely.

You don't get sales like DAO gets by only catering to hardcore players.

Modifié par themaxzero, 24 novembre 2009 - 06:54 .

[T0rin3]

The BG series of games always had an aspect of difficulty that most other games did not. I for one loathe the fact that everyone thinks games need to get easier and easier, because players get lazier and suckier. For as long as I have a voice, anything that lowers the bar of difficulty in games that I appreciate, I will make that voice heard. I for one am tired of seeing games being dumbed down for the masses.

[Faerell Gustani]

JeffNichols wrote...

oghier wrote...

Zarenthar wrote...

People that say just don't use the strat are just dumb because since it's within the legit parameter of the game it's only normal to be compelled to use it.

It's not normal to be *compelled* to use a tactic you do not enjoy, not in a single-player game where the stakes are exactly zero.  That's not even in the same zip code as normal.

If you aren't comepelled to always use the best strategic move, then you simpyl play games differently than other people. Not our fault we like to play perfectly and be challenged when doing so.

That depends on how you view it.  I certainly am compelled to always make the move that benefits my characters most, and in combat, that is the "best strategic" move.
However, if I view the Forcefield thing as a "bug" or a game "glitch" rather than normal operating mechanics, then I am no longer compelled by "best strategic move" to utilize it in such a fashion.

And yes, I would like to see it patched, so that when I do Forcefield my tank to prevent him from dying (which is what I usually do to buy time to heal him) the mobs don't sit there and be useless.

[themaxzero]

T0rin3 wrote...

The BG series of games always had an aspect of difficulty that most other games did not. I for one loathe the fact that everyone thinks games need to get easier and easier, because players get lazier and suckier. For as long as I have a voice, anything that lowers the bar of difficulty in games that I appreciate, I will make that voice heard. I for one am tired of seeing games being dumbed down for the masses.

But have you every wondered why they are called the masses? Because they are a lot of them.

There is already a mod to which you can change your game so its at a difficulty level you are comfortable with.

Why does your wants need to trump everyone elses?

I happy for you to play the way you want but why does it have to effect the game I purchased?

Modifié par themaxzero, 24 novembre 2009 - 07:03 .

[T0rin3]

 It can be broken down to one simple statement: The abuse of forcefield trivializes any challenge the game could pose, now and forever.

If that is what you want, enable the dev console and type "runscript pc_immortal", but don't make me do it because I needed some extra time to heal and cast buff spells on my tank mid-fight.

Modifié par T0rin3, 24 novembre 2009 - 07:03 .

[themaxzero]

T0rin3 wrote...

 It can be broken down to one simple statement: The abuse of forcefield trivializes any challenge the game could pose, now and forever.

If that is what you want, enable the dev console and type "runscript pc_immortal", but don't make me do it because I needed some extra time to heal and cast buff spells on my tank mid-fight.

For you not for everybody.

Why does everyone have to change for you?

[Seneva]

The spell does exactly what it's suposed to do. Creature behaviour programming should be changed, not the spell.

[T0rin3]

themaxzero wrote...

T0rin3 wrote...

The BG series of games always had an aspect of difficulty that most other games did not. I for one loathe the fact that everyone thinks games need to get easier and easier, because players get lazier and suckier. For as long as I have a voice, anything that lowers the bar of difficulty in games that I appreciate, I will make that voice heard. I for one am tired of seeing games being dumbed down for the masses.

But have you every wondered why they are called the masses? Because they are a lot of them.

There is already a mod to which you can change your game so its at a difficulty level you are comfortable with.

Why does your wants need to trump everyone elses?

I happy for you to play the way you want but why does it have to effect the game I purchased?

I have a legitimate reason to believe that forcefield is not behaving as it was intended, that this is a misuse of the spell and a game mechanic. If Bioware says that forcefield was designed and should be functioning that way, then you won't hear another peep from me about it. If I thought that was the case, I never would have started the thread. But, because I believe that it is a bug in the game as opposed to just a "cheap tactic", I am trying to have attention brought to the issue so we can get a response on the matter.

If there was a sword in the game if wielding with a particular shield caused every enemy to explode when coming into visual range of the character who used them, would you think this was legitimate? And if not, would you just sit quietly and say "well, who am I to tell people how to play"? Some things are simply game breaking, and do not belong in the game. I am of the belief that the current incarnation of forcefield is game breaking, and does not belong in the game. When Bioware says otherwise, I'll consider myself misinformed.

[T0rin3]

themaxzero wrote...

T0rin3 wrote...

 It can be broken down to one simple statement: The abuse of forcefield trivializes any challenge the game could pose, now and forever.

If that is what you want, enable the dev console and type "runscript pc_immortal", but don't make me do it because I needed some extra time to heal and cast buff spells on my tank mid-fight.

For you not for everybody.

Why does everyone have to change for you?

It's becoming amusing how often you manage to miss the point in such short succession.

[T0rin3]

Seneva wrote...

The spell does exactly what it's suposed to do. Creature behaviour programming should be changed, not the spell.

You say tomato, I say tomahto.

[themaxzero]

T0rin3 wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

T0rin3 wrote...

The BG series of games always had an aspect of difficulty that most other games did not. I for one loathe the fact that everyone thinks games need to get easier and easier, because players get lazier and suckier. For as long as I have a voice, anything that lowers the bar of difficulty in games that I appreciate, I will make that voice heard. I for one am tired of seeing games being dumbed down for the masses.

But have you every wondered why they are called the masses? Because they are a lot of them.

There is already a mod to which you can change your game so its at a difficulty level you are comfortable with.

Why does your wants need to trump everyone elses?

I happy for you to play the way you want but why does it have to effect the game I purchased?

I have a legitimate reason to believe that forcefield is not behaving as it was intended, that this is a misuse of the spell and a game mechanic. If Bioware says that forcefield was designed and should be functioning that way, then you won't hear another peep from me about it. If I thought that was the case, I never would have started the thread. But, because I believe that it is a bug in the game as opposed to just a "cheap tactic", I am trying to have attention brought to the issue so we can get a response on the matter.

If there was a sword in the game if wielding with a particular shield caused every enemy to explode when coming into visual range of the character who used them, would you think this was legitimate? And if not, would you just sit quietly and say "well, who am I to tell people how to play"? Some things are simply game breaking, and do not belong in the game. I am of the belief that the current incarnation of forcefield is game breaking, and does not belong in the game. When Bioware says otherwise, I'll consider myself misinformed.

The thing is Force Field is working as its tooltip says it works. It makes the target immune, says nothing about threat reduction.

You may think its silly but is it anymore silly the High Dragon spitting on my 75% FR tank while it gets shot to peices? Or how you get a 75% spirit resist helm in the very tower you fight a Dragon who's primary danger is spirit damage breath attacks? There is a suspension of disbelief you need to bring with you when you play CRPGs.

One of my friends got into DAO recently but did not have a lot of experience in CRPGs. I thought he was in for a baptism of fire. He made a Dwarven Tank. Got enough Str and Dex for talents and put everything else into stamina (he plays a tank in WoW). He finished the campaign with over 600 HP. He breezed through the game, even through parts that I found fairly tough. He just kept taunting everything while his group blew them away. Revanants, Dragons, Gaxxkang the whole bit.

In a way he was almost in a permanate semi Force Field.

Should high HP, super tough PC tanks be considering an exploit too? It made a CRPG newbie breeze through the game just as surely as Force Field did.

Where do you draw the line at clever tactic or exploit?

Modifié par themaxzero, 24 novembre 2009 - 07:25 .

[T0rin3]

themaxzero wrote...

The thing is Force Field is working as its tooltip says it works. It makes the target immune, says nothing about threat reduction.

I do not deny that. My contention is with how the game handles AI behavior once force field is in place. My suggestion was just one possible way to resolve the issue, but the heart of the issue is AI behavior.

You may think its silly but is it anymore silly the High Dragon spitting on my 75% FR tank while it gets shot to peices? Or how you get a 75% spirit resist helm in the very tower you fight a Dragon who's primary danger is spirit damage breath attacks? There is a suspension of disbelief you need to bring with you when you play CRPGs.

I am no stranger to a suspension of disbelief, but there are some things that just strike me as "wrong". And while those examples of being able to resist 75% of damage from one attack on one enemy are unfortunate, they do not eliminate all challenge whatsoever from those encounters. The high dragon can just pick you up and eat you, even if you have 10,000% FR. Force Field does eliminate all challenge from the encounter when used the way it is used. You might as well just cheat and kill the enemy outright, it equates to the same thing in the end.

One of my friends got into DAO recently but did not have a lot of experience in CRPGs. I thought he was in for a baptism of fire. He made a Dwarven Tank. Got enough Str and Dex for talents and put everything else into stamina (he plays a tank in WoW). He finished the campaign with over 600 HP. He breezed through the game, even through parts that I found fairly tough. He just kept taunting everything while his group blew them away. Revanants, Dragons, Gaxxkang the whole bit.

And that is a legitimate approach, not an abuse of AI.

In a way he was almost in a permanate semi Force Field.

But not really.

Should high HP, super tough PC tanks be considering an exploit too? It made a CRPG newbie breeze through the game just as surely as Force Field did.

Where do you draw the line at clever tactic or exploit?

Yes, obviously there is a line to be drawn, but I do not think the use forcefield following aggro generation abilities to make your party INVINCIBLE is "clever".

I would however be curious to find out what difficulty your friend played the game on, not that his approach was flawed.

[GlassRain]

I agree that mobs should swap targets when a force field goes up. Even a dumb creature would lose interest if each attack they made was repelled by some unknown force.. as well as the enemy was not moving at all.. not very threatening when you're getting hammered by so-and-so's allies.



Force field should simply drop all aggro, as simple as that. I personally like using it to remove high powered mobs from a fight while I clean up, but that's always been my strategy.

[themaxzero]

As he was new he played on normal.

Actually you can take away all challenge from the fight with a 75% resist tank if you don't go into melee range. All the Dragons are quite happy to spit on you from a distance. Taunt is more then enough to keep them on the tank without it needing to do any damage.

The thing is all the the NPCs in the game are built so subpar (except for maybe Wynne) that a min maxed PC of that type is much more powerful. That includes the tank role. Alister (and Shale to a lesser degree) and poor to bad as tanks a PC made one is much more powerful.

Modifié par themaxzero, 24 novembre 2009 - 07:50 .