109 réponses à ce sujet

[Melichai]

JeffNichols wrote...

If you aren't comepelled to always use the best strategic move, then you simpyl play games differently than other people. Not our fault we like to play perfectly and be challenged when doing so.

Theres two implications:

1 - You *need* to use Forcefield, which doesnt help any argument that using the mechanic is unrequired and thus exploiting.
2 - You dont need to use Forcefield but are unable to prevent yourself doing so. That you are unable to limit yourself in the way you play the game is not a qualification for limiting how others play the game.

I barely use the force field trick, as I like having the damage/stuns/knockdowns - but when Ive got a dozen guys plus an emissary wailing on me, then I'm happy to have the option. The other practical options for such a situation are hardly any more honourable...

relhart wrote...
I've gotten to the point where I don't even use mages, but I'd LIKE to use them, if would be nice if I could use them without feeling I am just cheesing through the game.

Spec them as Shapechangers and dont pick any decent spells.

relhart wrote...
people say this is a strategic game then complain when someone uses a strategy other than 'build one really strong tank character, and have a dedicated healer, and two dps'?

Yep, it's puzzling. One of the great attractions of these sort of games to me is you are given a toolbox of characters, skills, talents, spells and an AI to beat the hell out of with them. Im worried if the AI is challenging - its a set of fairly simple "Detect player? Move to player? Hit player? Use spell" conditions. If I'm given a big tool box of stuff and cant find something utterly crazed that destroys that sort of AI then I'm a little dissapointed. And worried.

Others like to tie one arm behind their back, to "prove" something either to themselves or others and thats fine. Plenty of people play using house rules like "no reloads" and so on. Thats how they find their enjoyment and good for them. No one would argue that Bioware needs to remove the reload option to ensure everyone has to play to the house rules of a player who wants to limit himself? I hope.

What's next? Bioware patching to prevent kiting?

T0rin3 wrote...
I've done 4 playthroughs so far, 2 on nightmare, and I had 2-3 mages in every group, and I did not use forcefield on my tank a single time in any playthrough.

Yeah, I sleep plenty, and well. I'm just offended that you think that forcefield may be the only way to beat "impossible dragons". I've done it at level 10 myself.

Well, yes, but let's not make it too easy for them to disguise their abuse of the game as legitimate play.

Yes, well, that is pretty much a given, but sometimes, people need to be saved from themselves

The abuse of forcefield trivializes any challenge the game could pose, now and forever.

Wow....just.....wow.

You're aware that this is a game and it doesnt matter what difficulty you finish the game on, or how "honourably" you did it, or at what level you beat <insert boss X here>? You're not getting a medal or anything. I mean, its nice youre enjoying the game. Everyone else is too, thanks.

Force field isnt even that big of a deal, I barely use it in that fashion that clearly bothers you so much - instead I use anyone of the other OMGWTF! Mage crowd contol/AoE spells and keep my tank happily chopping away rather than stuck there with a stupid grin on his face.

I am however half tempted to try a "Force Field+Tank+Taunt" playthrough and use it for every single encounter I possibly can, just for the knowledge that someone out there is so bothered that I *might* be doing that.

Tell you what would be even better: you get your wish and everyone elses game is patched to your specifications. And your game gets patched to my specifications: Im thinking group AI directing all attacks as a single mob to a Warrior, with their basic attacks having a Force Field effect. It'll be great.

T0rin3 wrote...
The BG series of games always had an aspect of difficulty that most other games did not. I for one loathe the fact that everyone thinks games need to get easier and easier, because players get lazier and suckier.

Heh, the BG series had an aspect of amazingly unbalanced, clearly exploitive tricks ( Thieves and traps turning uber monsters into pincusions about 2 seconds after they turned red) that I and many others loved using. Of course, just as often we didnt becuase it was *work* to set up all those traps. But the option was there. And it was fun.

You remember fun? Right?

[T0rin3]

themaxzero wrote...


As he was new he played on normal.

Actually you can take away all challenge from the fight with a 75% resist tank if you don't go into melee range. All the Dragons are quite happy to spit on you from a distance. Taunt is more then enough to keep them on the tank without it needing to do any damage.

The thing is all the the NPCs in the game are built so subpar (except for maybe Wynne) that a min maxed PC of that type is much more powerful. That includes the tank role. Alister (and Shale to a lesser degree) and poor to bad as tanks a PC made one is much more powerful.

Alistaire is not so bad, since you get control of his level ups from the very beginning. Templar is not bad when you consider the awesome body armor you are able to equip as a result, being a cornerstone of gaining 100% magic resistance. Even if you never put a single talent point into Templar skills, it still serves a great purpose.

But yes, it seems that sadly, the AI needs to be revisited, some potentially rather challenging encounters are made extremely easy just by gaming the system a ltitle.

[Lord Phoebus]

Seeing as there is no multiplayer in the game, I don't see why anything would need to be nerfed? Even if you do nerf Force Field, you can just do the same thing with a Glyph of Repulsion on a tank (it won't stop arrows or spells, but it works for melee enemies) or a lure item. It seems like the concept was built into the game.



As far as overpowered abilities go, this has nothing on Time Stop or Forceful Hand from the NWN games, or BGII. It's not even the most overpowered spell in DA:O (Shimmering Shield I'm looking at you). Actually it works exactly the same as Outiluke's Resiliant Sphere in IWD II (which wasn't a big deal on lower levels, but really strong in HoF mode). It's up to you to use it or not, heck if you want a challenge you can turn the monitor off while you play.



Instead of nerfing mages I rather see them give warriors and rogues a bit of a lift to make them more dangerous opponents. Why can't a warrior slit the throat of a stunned opponent? Or an Assassin outright assasinate a weak enemy from stealth? Why can't a warrior KO an opponent for 10+ seconds, but the mage can stun him for 20? A two-handed warrior should be striking every opponent in a 10 foot radius, IRL they were used to break up enemy formations, but they don't do that in this game. The problem with mages isn't forcefield, it's that they're the only class with effective crowd control and AOE damage. As long as that remains the case they'll always be the strongest class in the game.

[themaxzero]

Thats what I think would be best as well. Don't take away options for Mages but give more options for Warriors and Rogues.

[Cyrilix2]

People may argue "why change the game for you? why not change yourself?" Let me counter-argue. What if the game was not meant to be unbalanced as such? What if it was meant to initially be balanced? In which case, I could ask you "why leave the game unchanged for you? why not change the game yourself after it has been fixed?" So, since we don't know whether this was intended or not, we might as well push the matter, and make it so that it works as intended, THEN and ONLY THEN, can we argue "why change the game for you?"



Another thing about balance is this. People like to do whatever they can within a set of strict guidelines to achieve success. The reason why the game exists is to present these guidelines. That means that if there are any balance issues in a game, it's the responsibility of the game creator to fix balance issues so that players can work within the guidelines. Players should not have to keep a list of things in their mind and say "overpowered? can't use this -- enabling personal house rules". The reason why I buy a game is so that it can present me a full package (including the guidelines). Otherwise, why would I buy a game? I'd just make my own game! This is similar to PNP DND. DND's extensive ruleset combined with your DM's judgment create strict guidelines in which a player is capable of interacting. You are encouraged to be as creative as possible, within those guidelines.

[Aether99]

This is a post made by people with no self control, and are also unable to stop being competitive even if they have nobody to compete with.

in other words...its fail

[Cyrilix2]

Aether99 wrote...

This is a post made by people with no self control, and are also unable to stop being competitive even if they have nobody to compete with.

in other words...its fail

Also, people that would like a game to be fully complete with balance fixes out of the box, or with a few patches.
In other words... not so fail?

[Melichai]

The game is complete, apart from a few bug fixes. Id like to see Stamina potions - but hey, theres a mod out there to do that so whatever.



And your point about players wanting balance fixes - theres already some ridiculous "Hardcore" mod out there for masochists who carve notches on their desks for every time they complete a game using some house rule/honour system.



I like having the option to use Force Field in a way that truly annoys and bothers the OP. In fact I like the option more because now I *know* it truly annoys and bothers the OP that he thinks that even now, I might head off and use Force Field in a manner he disapproves off in my own single player game.



I mean, I can grief people in a single player game! Usually I have to pay a monthly subscription for that. Awesome.

[Cyrilix2]

Syncrosonix wrote...

when are people going to understand that this game is NOT an mmo? just stop using forcefield altogether. not a single person is making you use it.

Only MMOs require balance fixes? So if it weren't an MMO, and every spell and skill insta-killed all monsters, we would not be able to ask for a fix? So, let's say that we are able to ask for a fix because the example I provded was extreme, where do you draw the line between be able to ask for a fix and not being able to ask for a fix? No one is expecting perfect balance, though there are at least a few spells/skills that are "well-known", if you get what I mean.

@Melichai: I'm not interested in a hardcore mod, that increases the difficulty across the board. I'm interested in playing within the difficulty guidelines set by "Hard", with all major balance fixes fixed. Hardcore is too much for me, and I just want the game as is + the few fixes. Can that not be provided? Also, I do not believe the OP cares how you use force field. I don't care, that's for sure. What I care about is the framework in such a way that I would not be able to use it. What you fail to realize is that this isn't about any individual person using a skill in a given manner, it's about being provided with the entire package, so that I can have the satisfaction of playing within the rules of this package as well as possible. I'll make one thing clear. There are two distinctions:

1 - The lack of having to manually do menial tasks of remembering which extra rules I need to implement throughout the game.
2 - The psychological benefit of playing within the ruleset, as opposed to creating your ruleset.

These are my ONLY two advantages. Balance fixes are not high priority, but they are highly desirable (from my point of view).

Modifié par Cyrilix2, 25 novembre 2009 - 10:46 .

[hexaligned]

No, it needs to be patched (among other things) Like I said, I can't even use mages at all anymore and still enjoy combat. Should I be forced into playing through the game naked refusing to use any CC or aoe just to get any sort of challenge out of it? I would like to be able to use the varity the game offers without completely breaking it, and I should be able to.

[Aether99]

Cyrilix2 wrote...

Aether99 wrote...

This is a post made by people with no self control, and are also unable to stop being competitive even if they have nobody to compete with.

in other words...its fail

Also, people that would like a game to be fully complete with balance fixes out of the box, or with a few patches.
In other words... not so fail?

actually still fail.  Because if they wanted those addressed they would be smart and post them in a different thread in a constructive and non whining manner.  Otherwise it just gets overshadowed.

Also, Ive never played a RPG as big as this without many bugs out of the box, There are suprisingly few in DAO which is impressive.  Yes there are indeed some issues.  But forcefield is hardly on the top of that list.

People would agree with what you said, but in any game as big as this, they have never gotten it, not once. 

[Melichai]

Balance isnt going to happen - we have "AI", a complicated shopping list of actions/reactions, on one side, and human intelligence on the other.



Balance in that scenario is not achievable because human players ought to be smarter than a shopping list. If not, I fear for the future of humanity. Lazy games just stack the odds heavily against human cleverness to try and compensate. Thats fine with a limited tool set - rock, paper, sissors: grand, youve got something resembling balance. The AI cant do too badly.



The more complex the strategic options get, the worse the AI does. That is as should be expected: half the power gain in these games is not just simple HP and Attack bonuses...its new unlocked spells and powers that have rather exceptional abilities that a human intelligence recognises and leverages in a way a shopping list cannot. Force Field is an example of human intelligence recognising the implications of the power and how it can be used and leveraging it. This is how it should be until we start taking orders from microwaves.

[Cyrilix2]

I am trying to be logical and reason things out. I won't cry if these fixes don't make it in or if the devs give me the cold shoulder, but I would like to add my voice of support to these fixes if they can be made.

[Aether99]

relhart wrote...

No, it needs to be patched (among other things) Like I said, I can't even use mages at all anymore and still enjoy combat. Should I be forced into playing through the game naked refusing to use any CC or aoe just to get any sort of challenge out of it? I would like to be able to use the varity the game offers without completely breaking it, and I should be able to.

While I dont disagree.  The way you people are going on about it is non constructive and ultimately makes you seem to lack self control and overly competitive in a singleplayer game.

I understand your desires, and the reasoning behind them.  But Im sure there are more important fixes out there then catering to your lack of willpower.  Now that last line is not meant as to be flammatory, though Im sure it is.  Its simply how it looks.  I use forcefield.  But I only use it as CC on a tough enemy.  I dont use the taunt+forcefield combo.  I dont even use mage aoe...and I have two mages in my party!

But I get it, you want to use forcefield without breaking the game....but wait....you can!  You just dont like knowing that you could make the encounter trivial by doing some silly combo.  

It makes me think of Poor people petitioning to take away a rich mans money...not give it to the poor.  Just take it away so nobody can have it.

Having said all this, I agree forcefield should be fixed.  However like ive also said.  I think there are far more important things in need of fixing.

On the brightside this game is supposed to get 2 years worth of content.  I can certainly imagine these things getting addressed in that time.

[Cyrilix2]

Melichai wrote...

Balance isnt going to happen - we have "AI", a complicated shopping list of actions/reactions, on one side, and human intelligence on the other.

Balance in that scenario is not achievable because human players ought to be smarter than a shopping list. If not, I fear for the future of humanity. Lazy games just stack the odds heavily against human cleverness to try and compensate. Thats fine with a limited tool set - rock, paper, sissors: grand, youve got something resembling balance. The AI cant do too badly.

The more complex the strategic options get, the worse the AI does. That is as should be expected: half the power gain in these games is not just simple HP and Attack bonuses...its new unlocked spells and powers that have rather exceptional abilities that a human intelligence recognises and leverages in a way a shopping list cannot. Force Field is an example of human intelligence recognising the implications of the power and how it can be used and leveraging it. This is how it should be until we start taking orders from microwaves.

I understand the complexity of artificial intelligence, but you seem to think that just because there is artificial intelligence involved, we should be quick to dismiss it as "sorry, fixes won't happen". Trust me in that there are far more complicated artificial intelligence projects than figuring out whether or not to avoid a force-fielded mob, or how to appropriately deal with forcefield. If I might add, the tactics options already provide the framework for this to be done.

Also, the solution is never to increase the difficulty everywhere. That doesn't fix a problem, that only masks where the difficulty comes from / limits the players to certain options. Ideally, a very wide variety of tactics and options that are balanced should be available, to both the party and the AI. One thing that could be done would be to make the AI also do the same thing. You're fighting 2 emissaries? Immediately they take out both of your mages with 2 forcefields. Then, they proceed to crushing prison your rogue, and spam blast your tanks. This wouldn't even be difficult to do, and is one balancing option, but not the best. The best would be to make all the spells reasonable in the first place so regardless of who does it, you or the AI, things don't become completely one-sided.

[Melichai]

@ Cyrilix2



There are mods that can give you the balance you seek. The ridiculous hardcore mod I mentioned was one effort at answering a question few asked, but its an example. Like I said, I wanted Stamina Potions. I could petition Bioware to demand that everyone must play with Stamina Potions, but theres a mod out there ( that I have downloaded but not yet installed). I am sure that if you are unable to resist the urge to use Forcefield ( seriously, dont pick it for a level up, of if you want Crushing Prison then simply drag it off the quickbar so you dont see it - out of sight, out of mind) someone will introduce some sort of "honour" mod for the more honourable players who feel bad about outclassing the AI so blatantly.



And yes, the OP is really bothered and annoyed about the idea that I might be out there, abusing Force Field right now...well, not right now, but in a few minutes. Thats why hes demanding an official patch as opposed to himself just not using Force Field in the fashion that bothers him, or using a mod. He needs to ensure everyone else lives up to his same standards.



Funny thing is though, even if its patched, it wont be too hard to create a quick and dirty patch that turns off any "stealth" flags an official patch turns on.



Honestly, I barely use the force field trick ( dont tell the OP that though...let him fume) but how about you play your game, and I play mine?

[Looy]

I think if they made forcefield remove aggro, they should also increase its duration, then it would still have some use for removing one enemy for some time.

[Cyrilix2]

Looy wrote...

I think if they made forcefield remove aggro, they should also increase its duration, then it would still have some use for removing one enemy for some time.

Increase its duration? Are you serious? "then" it would still have some use for removing one enemy for some time? That's all I use it for, and it has too much use. It should remove an enemy from battle for no longer than 15 seconds, but it does so for far longer than that. Contrast this spell to any other skill that disables. Melee disables last no longer than a few seconds.

I sometimes wonder how you guys play to not find force field way overpowered. Maybe I'm just too good.

By the way, the only skill that comes close is Two-Handed Sweep, but even then it has a chance of failure against orange mobs, and only for the same duration (although against multiple enemies). Force field is single-targeted, so you can take out a boss for a significant amount of time.

Modifié par Cyrilix2, 26 novembre 2009 - 12:55 .

[Lord Phoebus]

Cyrilix2 wrote...

Looy wrote...

I think if they made forcefield remove aggro, they should also increase its duration, then it would still have some use for removing one enemy for some time.

Increase its duration? Are you serious? "then" it would still have some use for removing one enemy for some time? That's all I use it for, and it has too much use. It should remove an enemy from battle for no longer than 15 seconds, but it does so for far longer than that. Contrast this spell to any other skill that disables. Melee disables last no longer than a few seconds.

On nightmare (not sure about lower levels) the duration is reduced against yellows and reds, it lasts about ten seconds against the yellows and 5 against the reds.  It only lasts the full 20s duration on friendlies and whites.  Petrify, Paralysis and Waking Nightmare last longer.  For a single target disabler it's one of the shorter ones in a mage's arsenal (crushing prison and winter's grasp have the shorter durations).  Yeah it's longer than the Melee disables but all of the mage disablers last a long time.

[Cyrilix2]

Lord Phoebus wrote...

Cyrilix2 wrote...

Looy wrote...

I think if they made forcefield remove aggro, they should also increase its duration, then it would still have some use for removing one enemy for some time.

Increase its duration? Are you serious? "then" it would still have some use for removing one enemy for some time? That's all I use it for, and it has too much use. It should remove an enemy from battle for no longer than 15 seconds, but it does so for far longer than that. Contrast this spell to any other skill that disables. Melee disables last no longer than a few seconds.

On nightmare (not sure about lower levels) the duration is reduced against yellows and reds, it lasts about ten seconds against the yellows and 5 against the reds.  It only lasts the full 20s duration on friendlies and whites.  Petrify, Paralysis and Waking Nightmare last longer.  For a single target disabler it's one of the shorter ones in a mage's arsenal (crushing prison and winter's grasp have the shorter durations).  Yeah it's longer than the Melee disables but all of the mage disablers last a long time.

Point taken, but it's still very useful, yes?

[Lord Phoebus]

True, though I tend not to use it on bosses, only on party members who need healing since using heal spells on Nightmare is a bit of a lost cause until you get the tier 6 and 7 armors.

[Bullets McDeath]

I used FF in the dragon fights but only when my tank got picked up and chewed on. You just have to restrain yourself. Honestly, I think the spell works as intended. What people are calling an "exploit" is, far as I can tell, exactly what the spell was designed to do. Again: self restraint. If using it all the time makes it too easy, don't. If you hit a hard "impossible" battle where nothing else works, give it a shot and see if it gives you the edge. It's not life or death.

[kormesios]

Cyrilix2 wrote...
Another thing about balance is this. People like to do
whatever they can within a set of strict guidelines to achieve success.
The reason why the game exists is to present these guidelines. That
means that if there are any balance issues in a game, it's the
responsibility of the game creator to fix balance issues so that
players can work within the guidelines. Players should not have to keep
a list of things in their mind and say "overpowered? can't use this --
enabling personal house rules".

This is a big thing for me.  It's a little like playing chess against an inferior opponent: More fun to re-balance the game by spotting them some pieces, then try your hardest.  Trying to keep it competitive by constantly thinking "Oh, this move will let me win, should I use it or is it unfair?" is not the same.

[T0rin3]

I want to play the game in the most optimal, most efficient way I possibly can. When I do that, I end up forcefielding my tank after he has severe aggro against everything on the screen. I feel like I'm cheating. So, what do I do? Do I just have to refrain from playing optimally, or do I hope that the structure and rules of the game can be altered so that I can still play optimally, but at the same time not have to worry that my tactics are effectively breaking the game and removing any possible challenge from it?

Modifié par T0rin3, 26 novembre 2009 - 02:27 .