109 réponses à ce sujet

[WoodsDweller]

Having effective spells does not "break the game".



Why would you expect magical combat to be equivalent in length and number of actions to mundane combat? The entire point of using magic is that it works better than swinging a sword. Not just differently. Better. Mages traditionally don't wear armor and have low resistances and low hit points, so they simply can't stand there and take damage for a long battle while dealing 15 points of damage at a time. If there's a mage present, she has to end the battle FAST. That's why they get crowd control spells and AoE spells. That work. Reliably. Preferably ones that don't kill their own party at the same time (allowing them to actually use them).



What exactly is the functional difference between taunt+FF+AoE vs. mass paralysis + melee? In the second case the fighters have something else to do besides stand there. I already have a use for melee fighters. They can carry my loot.



Taunt + FF is just a crowd control technique. That works. And allows AoE without friendly damage. Nothing more.



How about a "mass fire shield" spell? That would work nicely too. Cast that on the party, send them into combat, and cast Inferno. No need to control the crowd if that offendeth thee.



If using magic doesn't make the combat easy, they designed the game wrong. If you don't want the combat made easy, don't take casters. Chop away with your swords to your heart's content, if that's what you think combat should be like.

[borelocin]

A man goes to a doctor and says "It hurts when I do this"

The doctor thinks for a moment and says "Stop doing that"

[Love-Buzz]

If FF gets a nerf, CoC better as well. Locking the high dragon frozen for 98% of a battle on nightmare with 2 mages is also very, very wrong.

I do sympathize with the OP about how even if you don't abuse the tactics, it would be nice not to even have the option. I don't FF my tanks (heal works just fine), but I hate forcing myself to only use 1 mage because the CC of 2 mages makes the game too easy. It's like either you play boring characters for a challenge or exciting characters for a snoozefest.

Modifié par Love-Buzz, 26 novembre 2009 - 05:44 .

[Durallan]

leaves my single player game alone and use mods. I'm having fun. Thats is why the toolset is there.

[Rugaru]

Wow I mean just wow, so I want to get this straight...people are complaining about force fielding a tank and wiping out a room with aoe...never did it myself but I don't see the problem with it.



Or are they complaining that the AI doesn't ignore force fields altogether? Why would they? Some guy in armor runs into room and gets every one so pissed off that they just have to hit this guy. Just because they can't connect or hurt him does not mean they now just ignore him...does it?

[Hyunsai]

Everybody is talking about Lore when they want, but never when someone as smart as Flemeth is punching a forcefield ad vitam aeternam leaving other party members beating her to death...



Flemeth is stupid. Lore, I say...



Hilarious...

[Cyrilix2]

Just because they can't connect or hurt him does not mean they now just ignore him...does it?

Actually, yes, it does. I'm not sure if I see the point of your question.

This is a big thing for me.  It's a little like playing chess against
an inferior opponent: More fun to re-balance the game by spotting them
some pieces, then try your hardest.  Trying to keep it competitive by
constantly thinking "Oh, this move will let me win, should I use it or
is it unfair?" is not the same.

You're right on the ball with that one. That's EXACTLY what I mean. To me, anyway (not necessarily to everyone), this housekeeping reduces the enjoyment of a game. Dragon Age has still been overall, quite enjoyable, but I mean, it could be better. I'd even be happy if they introduced an EXTRA difficulty mode that had all of the balance fixes, so that people that want to play their easy mode can do so, while I play the balanced mode (maybe "hardcore" would be a good name for it, much like Neverwinter Night's hardcore mode -- no benefits, no disadvantages, just the core rules as they SHOULD be).

Modifié par Cyrilix2, 26 novembre 2009 - 02:55 .

[Count Viceroy]

I stopped using it instead. Force field and crushing prison.

[dannythefool]

Couldar wrote...
Or are they complaining that the AI doesn't ignore force fields altogether? Why would they? Some guy in armor runs into room and gets every one so pissed off that they just have to hit this guy. Just because they can't connect or hurt him does not mean they now just ignore him...does it?

That's more like it. I see your point, but it still vastly unbalances combat. If you can't control yourself enough to refrain from using forcefield, all of your battles will soon look like this: Tank runs in, taunts, is force-fielded, everything dies without any other party member ever being attacked.
For now I just don't get it if I don't want to make combat too easy, but this also means I can't use the forcefield+crushing prison combo, for example. A balanced forcefield would make more sense, it doesn't have to lose the tank all aggro instantly but it could slowly decrease it while party members are presumably building up aggro with their own attacks...
All in all it wouldn't be a very high priority for me personally as there are so many other ways to play this game that are less broken.

[JessicaGlenn]

While you're at it, fix mana clash, the one shot antimage spell that kills them in aoe. Heck, it nerfs gaxkang to the a laughable point. Fix!

[Duck and Cover]

never used this strat my first run thru the game. not once. It seemed cheesy. i prefer fire resist gear on my tank and fireball/inferno everything around the tank.

second run thru I picked up Sten. He has no tanking talents to start with. So I kind of had to use forcefield. He goes down way to quick otherwise. I'm hoping blizz doesn't patch this so we CAN use tanks other than the PC, or Alaister. One day I may even use Oghren as a tank.

I don't use it much anymore now I'm level 13 and I picked up Zhevran. And I'm using ogrhren too, I have too many melee, so I don't aoe much. Although I still toss in the fireballs every now and then and just group heal. It's so much faster to get thru trash that way.

Having already beaten the game, I don't want to spend all day on trash. I just want to aoe them and move on.

Modifié par Duck and Cover, 26 novembre 2009 - 03:39 .

[Count Viceroy]

Speaking of unbalanced skills. Scattershot, while being fine by itself. It's not fine when there's anywhere between 3-10 archers spamming it. So annoying.

[Melichai]

T0rin3 said...
I want to play the game in the most optimal, most efficient way I possibly can. When I do that, I end up forcefielding my tank after he has severe aggro against everything on the screen. I feel like I'm cheating. So, what do I do? Do I just have to refrain from playing optimally, or do I hope that the structure and rules of the game can be altered so that I can still play optimally, but at the same time not have to worry that my tactics are effectively breaking the game and removing any possible challenge from it?

Essentially this is your problem - I dont abuse Force Field, I barely use it bar on the odd boss who needs to be kept entertaining himself for a while. Which I hope no one has a problem with.

Using Force Field in the manner you describe is not the optimal choice in roughly 80% of the mobs that are encountered. Its far more hassle than its worth, when there are quicker, less complicated, and more directly effective options available.

The optimal choice is to run with 2-3 mages with cones of cold: freeze everything and have your tank using critical talents to shatter them, as opposed to sitting the fight out. At best, the force field option ( I stress option) is an emergency button when the game throws one of its wonderful difficulty spikes at you.

Another optimal choice that you ( i assume) dont do is to turn on God Mode. Its something you can do, indeed you have advised others to do so, but I guess you havent turned it on despite it being an option and knowing you *could* do it. Because you want to retain a challenge, you limit yourself and ignore an optimal solution to difficult situations.

Just take that admirable self-denial, and apply it to spells and talents you feel are cheap. Everyone is happy then.

Modifié par Melichai, 26 novembre 2009 - 07:22 .

[UltraMuut]

<- Trying to get over the fact that people are asking for nerfs for a single-player game..



If you don't like it, don't use it surely..?



I'd assume that the devs put some fairly overpowered options in-game for those that are finding it tough going. (Cheap and infinite supply of 'rare and expensive' lyrium potions anyone?)



If you're looking not to exploit weaknesses in the AI, does that mean that you'll also drop any pulling tactic, any taunt tactic, any tactic based on pre-knowledge of an encounter, reloading the fight to go get appropriate countermeasures..., etc. If mob AI was unexploitable you'd likely lose hard, forcefield or no forcefield.

[borelocin]

Nerfing a single player game because some people feel compelled to take advantage of every single exploit is counter-productive. You upset the people who are happy with the game as it is, and you will never satisfy people who are "compelled"  to exploit anyway. 

The improvement I have suggested that greatly enhance my experience is a forum Block function that actually renders users invisible when I Block them 


 

Modifié par borelocin, 26 novembre 2009 - 11:53 .

[Bluesmith]

borelocin wrote...

Nerfing a single player game because some people feel compelled to take advantage of every single exploit is counter-productive. You upset the people who are happy with the game as it is, and you will never satisfy people who are "compelled"  to exploit anyway. 

The improvement I have suggested that greatly enhance my experience is a forum Block function that actually renders users invisible when I Block them 


 

What do you lose, in terms of enjoyment, by having Bioware patch away force field's ability to completely negate almost every encounter (including most bosses) in the game? I'm genuinely curious: would it actually be less fun for you if you couldn't employ the same taunt->FF->grab a sandwich strategy over and over? If you're not using it in this way - which your post suggests - why do you care if they remove this exploit?

[borelocin]

Bluesmith wrote...

borelocin wrote...

Nerfing a single player game because some people feel compelled to take advantage of every single exploit is counter-productive. You upset the people who are happy with the game as it is, and you will never satisfy people who are "compelled"  to exploit anyway. 

The improvement I have suggested that greatly enhance my experience is a forum Block function that actually renders users invisible when I Block them 


 

What do you lose, in terms of enjoyment, by having Bioware patch away force field's ability to completely negate almost every encounter (including most bosses) in the game? I'm genuinely curious: would it actually be less fun for you if you couldn't employ the same taunt->FF->grab a sandwich strategy over and over? If you're not using it in this way - which your post suggests - why do you care if they remove this exploit?

I am not taking advantage of any exploits myself - would spoil my fun. Some people who are demanding nerfs because they cannot take responsibility for or control over their own actions - they are spoling their own fun, they know it, but they won't stop themselves.

[Sarakinoi]

I never even really got the spell... Tried it once (it helped me beat a revenant at level 7-8 without potions), then loaded a savegame and picked something else. It is obviously too powerful, and if you can't stop using it, then simply : don't take the spell. If you don't have the spell you can't be tempted to use it.



As for making enemies ignore the target of the spell, what is the point? It will become just another useless spell that nobody picks or use. At least leave it for people who like easy-mode, why ruin their fun just because you can't control yourself? (Look at it as self control training, it is an important life skill well worth having beyond the scope of the game.)

[Bluesmith]

Sarakinoi wrote...

I never even really got the spell... Tried it once (it helped me beat a revenant at level 7-8 without potions), then loaded a savegame and picked something else. It is obviously too powerful, and if you can't stop using it, then simply : don't take the spell. If you don't have the spell you can't be tempted to use it.

As for making enemies ignore the target of the spell, what is the point? It will become just another useless spell that nobody picks or use. At least leave it for people who like easy-mode, why ruin their fun just because you can't control yourself? (Look at it as self control training, it is an important life skill well worth having beyond the scope of the game.)

Useless? You'd still be able to save a party member from death, and you'd still be able to completely remove a target from combat (you know, sort of the way Crushing Prison ought to have worked in the first place). FF is amazing for many reasons, and only one of them (invincible tanking) is broken.

[gurugeorge]

Hey, I know - devs, please can we have a macro bound to "runscript killallhostiles"? Those who don't have the self-control not to use it don't have any right to complain, after all - and those who have fun with it can have fun with it, after all.

And hey, it's magic, right?  There could be a magic spell like that.

Modifié par gurugeorge, 27 novembre 2009 - 02:09 .

[Zarenthar]

Forcefield as it is makes just about ANY encounter a laughable joke... That's the problem. Guys who just brush off the issue saying " just don't take the spell or don't use it" fail to understand what is an exploit. Taunt/FF IS an exploit. You cannot wipe using this strat EVER.



1- increase the CD to 1 minute

or

2- wipe the threat of the FFed target

[Love-Buzz]

Zarenthar wrote...
Guys who just brush off the issue saying " just don't take the spell or don't use it" fail to understand what is an exploit.

It's not that they don't understand - it's that this isn't an exploit in a multiplayer game, where it's used against you.  You are entirely in control of whether or not this exploit ever affects you.  I would personally rather it be fixed, so I could save a character's life with it but not turn them into an invulneralbe tank for the duration, but it's early in the game's release and big RPGs are always buggy at launch, so for now, I'm just not exploiting it.

[soteria]

I think even though it's a single player game, things like FF+taunt, kiting, single-pulling monsters, potion chain-chugging and CoC spamming still hurt the overall experience. The game is supposed to be difficult on hard/nightmare, and these things eliminate a lot of the challenge. Players that use the "exploits" laugh, enjoy themselves for a time, and get bored and move on to something else. Players that don't can feel like they're having to "hold back." It cheapens the thrill of beating hard encounters and lowers the amount of respect the game receives.

[Bullets McDeath]

All of this reminds me of the X-Zone/Vanish trick from FF3/6. Vanish was a spell that made the target impossible to hit with physical attacks, but all magic cast at them had 100% success. X-Zone is a spell with a very low success rate, but if it works, the enemy is carted off to another dimension and no longer your problem. Naturally, if you cast Vanish and then X-Zone, it would instantly kill anything, including Bahamut, hell, including the final boss.



Did it "break" the game? No more than Forcefield does. Yes, you could go around doing it to every enemy in the game and never once lose, but if you can't stop yourself from doing that, the problem lies within you

[Bluesmith]

I think today we try to hold the games we play to standards higher than those to which we held JRPGs from the SNES era.