134 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

ProneToGlory wrote...

So, back on topic...hopefully haha. In my opinion I feel that Bioware should take as much time as they need and polish Dragon Age 3 to the maximum. The MAXIMUM. I don't want any half assed game coming out, not another Dragon Age 2. Don't get me wrong I liked DA2, it just didn't live up to Dragon age Origins.

I just had a horrible flash of "TO THE MAXIMUM!" being the new Awesome Button catchphrase for DA3...

They need to work on immersion. Reading a codex entry about the Hero of Ferelden, and how he gathered the armies and won the rebellion and then saved Ferelden by killing the Archdemon and MAKING THE ULTIMATE SACRIFICE for the greater good only to read in the next paragraph that he married Anora after the blight and is now the Prince-Consort. Really?

Isn't marrying Anora a sacrifice? When you think about it?

Not only immersion but the really crappy textures used for bystanders. I want life! A breathing city! People running errands, the merchants calling out goods, beggers chasing after a character maybe *cough cough Assassin's Creed cough cough* I want to see guards making an arrest. SOMETHING! Look to the Witcher 2 or Skryim for inspiration, but find it somewhere.

I agree that dynamic character movement and actions need to be required. My problem with DA2 is that they placed the entire game in one city, then made that city about as exciting as the Deep Roads. They should have looked to the Assassin's Creed games in trying to make a city that felt truly alive, if they were going to make a single location the focus of the game.

DA3 has the potential to be something great. David Gaider's writing has never been better in my opinion, just finished Asunder, and I feel the story could be monumental in setting the end of the Dragon age franchise. Just please, PLEASE, don't make the same mistakes!

I don't want to downplay or feel lke I am being negative towards any one on the writing staff, but I get the feeling that their skills are more honed to being good book writers, but perhaps not good video game writers. A book has set characters, with set events and set timelines, where you control everything, from your characters actions to their very thoughts.

In a video game, you have a unique character for every one who sits down and plays your game. You could be doing things at drastically different times, for different motivations and with different thoughts or ideas as to why you are doing it. In addition, Bioware games have been touted as choice games, so you can't just write one story, but the story of anything that could be. Castrating the effects of those choices seems like a watered down, blatatnt exercise in railroading.

All in all, video game writing is a whole different beast than book writing. Its not just about telling a good story, but its about telling a good story in as many different forms as possible. Its a truly daunting task. But being good at writing a story alone doesn't neccessarily make you a good video game writer.

Again, not trying to say anything negative about anyone on the DA writing team. Just trying to make a point that writing for other forms of media doesn't neccesarily convert perfectly to writing a good branching RPG story.

[TEWR]

I don't want to downplay or feel lke I am being negative towards any one on the writing staff, but I get the feeling that their skills are more honed to being good book writers, but perhaps not good video game writers. A book has set characters, with set events and set timelines, where you control everything, from your characters actions to their very thoughts.

I was thinking the same thing. It's obvious that a book will be better then a video game because you have no control over the situation being told, so you can accept it because it's a book.

But when players play a game, they want a certain level of control over the situation. At the very least, we should be able to act on our motivations. My motivations should be Hawke's. I shouldn't have to make Hawke's motivations my own.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 février 2012 - 01:29 .

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If anything, she was infected with the greatest evil of them all: Neutrality.

Speaking of the greatest evil, I doubt that Hermes had pride. Pride is generally considered the most powerful of sins. Hence why pride demons are such a big deal in Dragon Age. And the greatest of sins infected the answering machine of the gods? I don't see it. Hermes sucks the big one too much to get the big one. Perhaps Athena got pride. We assume it was greed, but what if it wasn't? What if she wanted the power of hope because she truly thought that she was the only one who could use it to its fullest potentional? That she thought so much of herself, that only she could be the savior of mankind in her twisted little world?

Although I don't think even that's the case. I don't think she had any of the sins. Looking back, I think she may have set up everything from the start - including her own "death." It was never explained how or why she's become Casper the Friendly Green Ghost so it's possible that she knew it would happen and perhaps set it up that way. Think about it... Athena knew the potentional of Pandora's Box. She also knew of the Marked One prophecy. She's the one who sent Kratos after the box to begin with. Let's say she figured out before anyone else that Kratos was the one who would destroy the Olympian order. So she sends him after the box in a task that the other gods though impossible. He succeeds, and thus confirms his destiny to her. So, knowing that the Olympians are doomed, she sets up some way to stick around as that green ghost while letting Kratos kill her physical form. And then you know the rest. Everything we'd attributed to her being infected with greed, having really just been an elaborate gambit to survive the prophesied fall of the gods.

Oh, one more thing. I think the common belief that the death of the gods released those plagues is a misinterpretation. Several gods die without any apparent fallout. Yet Helios, who is a titan that sided with the Olympians the first time around, triggered one when he died. Inconsistent. But Kratos released hope by impaling himself and it can be seen spreading through the world. It seems to me that the true source of the plagues was the evils from Pandora's Box that had infected the gods escaping.

I've taken out my rage by punching walls before and yelling very loudly.

Damn near broke my hand doing it.

Yes, but you're not an ancient ocean god infamous for murderous temper tantrums even before being exposed to pure concentrated evil.

[Xilizhra]

Why are there seven deadly sins at all? This game deals with a completely different theology.

[fightright2]

I still think that if they truly wanted to change the DA world into a world where mages have rebelled and kicked off a war...they should have just did a small backdrop of what had happened through the years in txt at the beginning and set the story and character in the middle of a long mage war.

That would have made the way for not only new characters but unique ones as well.
And it would have paved the way for some great DLC.

But most importantly, it would have been possible to release a prequel to the uprising without backlash of it being devoid of choices since it in no way could have been avoided since it would of been a PREQUEL.
Whether the story be told through dreams, the fade, or memories and flashbacks...it would of made far better sense to tell it that way instead of playing a character that has no initial effect on changing anything other than the inevitable outcome.

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

Speaking of the greatest evil, I doubt that Hermes had pride. Pride is generally considered the most powerful of sins. Hence why pride demons are such a big deal in Dragon Age. And the greatest of sins infected the answering machine of the gods? I don't see it. Hermes sucks the big one too much to get the big one. Perhaps Athena got pride. We assume it was greed, but what if it wasn't? What if she wanted the power of hope because she truly thought that she was the only one who could use it to its fullest potentional? That she thought so much of herself, that only she could be the savior of mankind in her twisted little world?

Then what was he infected with? Assuming the whole "Evils release plagues" thing is in fact the case -- and it seems much more likely then the gods being the source of the plagues given Helios' backstory -- what evil was he infected with?

And then what was the plague associated with the evil of Fear, which infected Zeus? By the time Zeus is dead, the whole world has become Hell. Thunderstorms were going on, tornadoes were raging, the ocean had risen, the sun was gone, plants had withered, and souls were roaming without a purpose.

So... what happened when Zeus died? The God of War wiki says that lightning was released into the sky, which makes sense given what Zeus is the god of.

But storms were already going on. So I guess Zeus' death just made the storms go into hyperdrive.

Although I don't think even that's the case. I don't think she had any of the sins. Looking back, I think she may have set up everything from the start - including her own "death." It was never explained how or why she's become Casper the Friendly Green Ghost so it's possible that she knew it would happen and perhaps set it up that way. Think about it... Athena knew the potentional of Pandora's Box. She also knew of the Marked One prophecy. She's the one who sent Kratos after the box to begin with. Let's say she figured out before anyone else that Kratos was the one who would destroy the Olympian order. So she sends him after the box in a task that the other gods though impossible. He succeeds, and thus confirms his destiny to her. So, knowing that the Olympians are doomed, she sets up some way to stick around as that green ghost while letting Kratos kill her physical form. And then you know the rest. Everything we'd attributed to her being infected with greed, having really just been an elaborate gambit to survive the prophesied fall of the gods.

So Athena is really the Flemeth of the God of War series!

Oh, one more thing. I think the common belief that the death of the gods released those plagues is a misinterpretation. Several gods die without any apparent fallout. Yet Helios, who is a titan that sided with the Olympians the first time around, triggered one when he died. Inconsistent. But Kratos released hope by impaling himself and it can be seen spreading through the world. It seems to me that the true source of the plagues was the evils from Pandora's Box that had infected the gods escaping.

This makes a lot more sense.

So it seems that the evils and the plagues associated with them are determined by what the gods embodied. Since Poseidon was the God of the Seas, Anger's plague was the ocean rising. But if it had infected Hera, it wouldn't have been oceans rising.

Yes, but you're not an ancient ocean god infamous for murderous temper tantrums even before being exposed to pure concentrated evil.

Fair point, but who says I'm not an ancient ocean god? Maybe I am and all you guys don't know it! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Anyway, it seemed to prey on what Poseidon was most susceptible to: his rage. Thus he was infected by Anger. Just as Zeus was afraid that the cycle would continue and Fear infected him.

It's almost as if the evils of the box were living things.

Still, I think that if Poseidon was abusing her there would've been bruising and broken limbs. And prior to her being crushed to death, she was perfectly fine.

I mean, God of War 3 already had a ****load of mature stuff. We can see Kratos using her as a tool but we can't see whether or not this girl was in fact beaten?

Either the devs of GoW3 just didn't add it, or Poseidon didn't beat her and he just yelled very loudly and took out his rage on other things that weren't her.

The world may never know.

Xilizhra wrote...

Why are there even seven deadly sins at all? The game is focusing on a different theology.

In Greek Mythology, Pandora's box -- well, really it was a jar -- held within it great evils. As far as I can tell, those evils were never named in the Greek mythos. And IIRC, the evils in Pandora's Box in God of War were more then the seven deadly sins, but the seven deadly sins are part of what the box held.

Anyway, Pandora was given the jar and told not to open it, but curiosity got the better of her and she did open it, thereby releasing said evils. She closed it and realized that Hope was still inside. So she let that out and let the world have hope.

Additionally, Zeus had Pandora marry Prometheus' brother Epimetheus because of Prometheus' "betrayal". And Zeus is really the cause of all the evils being released in the mythos as he had intended for Pandora to open the box.

So it's entirely possible that in the Greek mythos the seven deadly sins were part of what the box originally held. That's my rationalization anyway.

And in a way, Kratos is Pandora. Even though Pandora exists in the God of War universe, Kratos' story is like that of Pandora in some ways. He unintentionally let out the evils of the box and later on the universe had to deal with them, and he then gave hope to the universe.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 février 2012 - 08:13 .

[ProneToGlory]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't want to downplay or feel lke I am being negative towards any one on the writing staff, but I get the feeling that their skills are more honed to being good book writers, but perhaps not good video game writers. A book has set characters, with set events and set timelines, where you control everything, from your characters actions to their very thoughts.

I was thinking the same thing. It's obvious that a book will be better then a video game because you have no control over the situation being told, so you can accept it because it's a book.

But when players play a game, they want a certain level of control over the situation. At the very least, we should be able to act on our motivations. My motivations should be Hawke's. I shouldn't have to make Hawke's motivations my own.

I agree, completely. But what I don't get is how we got from Mass Effect and Dragon Age Origins (both fantastic writing and decisions felt well done) to dragon age 2? I'd really like to know what happened in between the two games.

[TEWR]

ProneToGlory wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't want to downplay or feel lke I am being negative towards any one on the writing staff, but I get the feeling that their skills are more honed to being good book writers, but perhaps not good video game writers. A book has set characters, with set events and set timelines, where you control everything, from your characters actions to their very thoughts.

I was thinking the same thing. It's obvious that a book will be better then a video game because you have no control over the situation being told, so you can accept it because it's a book.

But when players play a game, they want a certain level of control over the situation. At the very least, we should be able to act on our motivations. My motivations should be Hawke's. I shouldn't have to make Hawke's motivations my own.

I agree, completely. But what I don't get is how we got from Mass Effect and Dragon Age Origins (both fantastic writing and decisions felt well done) to dragon age 2? I'd really like to know what happened in between the two games.

I don't know. I'm not sure how Bioware thought that removing appropriate choices and believable consequences was a good thing. Or how they thought that they could ignore giving good and believable reasons why the plot must dictate some things have to happen (Petrice).

no wait, I do know. Bioware/EA wanted to make Dragon Age 2 in such a short amount of time, stopped production of DAO DLC because "Dragon Age II was almost finished and was really well done", and a few other things. It was a cash grab.

And then now they're actually beginning to admit that they rushed it out the door.

In the end, they have only themselves to blame.

[ProneToGlory]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

ProneToGlory wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't want to downplay or feel lke I am being negative towards any one on the writing staff, but I get the feeling that their skills are more honed to being good book writers, but perhaps not good video game writers. A book has set characters, with set events and set timelines, where you control everything, from your characters actions to their very thoughts.

I was thinking the same thing. It's obvious that a book will be better then a video game because you have no control over the situation being told, so you can accept it because it's a book.

But when players play a game, they want a certain level of control over the situation. At the very least, we should be able to act on our motivations. My motivations should be Hawke's. I shouldn't have to make Hawke's motivations my own.

I agree, completely. But what I don't get is how we got from Mass Effect and Dragon Age Origins (both fantastic writing and decisions felt well done) to dragon age 2? I'd really like to know what happened in between the two games.

I don't know. I'm not sure how Bioware thought that removing appropriate choices and believable consequences was a good thing. Or how they thought that they could ignore giving good and believable reasons why the plot must dictate some things have to happen (Petrice).

no wait, I do know. Bioware/EA wanted to make Dragon Age 2 in such a short amount of time, stopped production of DAO DLC because "Dragon Age II was almost finished and was really well done", and a few other things. It was a cash grab.

And then now they're actually beginning to admit that they rushed it out the door.

In the end, they have only themselves to blame.

Didn't even notice them taking the blame. Glad they did though. I would rather wait 3 years for a good Da3 then 3 months and have a ****ty one.

[MissOuJ]

I'm really exited and looking forward to DA3, but I feel I can wait. Making good games takes time, and I'm sure there are a lot of good games I can play in the meantime. Including any future DLC they have in mind.

I'm kind of forlornly wishing for the "Escape from Kirkwall" DLC, but I understand that's not really viable idea, since the Templar ending would have to have something completely different... Mage chase DLC?

"How Hawke disappeared" DLC would be awesome, though. A fool-proof way of parting me with my money... And get me really hyped for DA3 *hint hint*

Modifié par MissOuJ, 10 février 2012 - 08:35 .

[Fast Jimmy]

MissOuJ wrote...

I'm really exited and looking forward to DA3, but I feel I can wait. Making good games takes time, and I'm sure there are a lot of good games I can play in the meantime. Including any future DLC they have in mind.

I'm kind of forlornly wishing for the "Escape from Kirkwall" DLC, but I understand that's not really viable idea, since the Templar ending would have to have something completely different... Mage chase DLC?

"How Hawke disappeared" DLC would be awesome, though. A fool-proof way of parting me with my money... And get me really hyped for DA3 *hint hint*

On one hand, I think this is a real impossibility, as the profitiability of a DLC like this would be minimal, with such a small amount of interest in DA2 at this point.

On the other hand,I think that this would be a great idea, especially leading into the release of DA3, like six months in advance. It might wind up not making much money (or even wind up LOSING money, depending on sales) but at the same time, it could be worth it to earn back some face and continuity for the DA2 story line.

[Ponendus]

I don't mind waiting, but I don't think its necessary to have to wait as long as the DAO development cycle was if they are going to use the same engine again.

Waiting doesn't bother me at all, once they announce DA3 just the speculation, chat, trickles of news and general igniting of these forums that will inevitably follow will be enough to keep me entertained for a long time.

[Sabariel]

I can definitely wait.

[Teddie Sage]

I don't want DA3 before a few years. Right now I want DLCs on DA2. I want more Charming/Sarcastic Male!Hawke. è_é

Modifié par Teddie Sage, 13 février 2012 - 02:47 .

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Then what was he infected with? Assuming the whole "Evils release plagues" thing is in fact the case -- and it seems much more likely then the gods being the source of the plagues given Helios' backstory -- what evil was he infected with?

I don't know. Maybe it wasn't apparent. I mean if he got lust, how we would know? Unless he's got a fetish for massive psychopaths with the ashes of their dead family glued to them, how would we know? And if he did, Zeus wouldn't have gotten fear because I'd have all the terror in the universe all. Come to think of it, maybe Hermes got cowardice. Xilizhra's right, this isn't Christian definitions of sin. It's Greek and the lore was a nondescript "all evils." It could also be the fact that he has the maturity of a 12 year old, right down to playground taunting rhymes.

And then what was the plague associated with the evil of Fear, which infected Zeus? By the time Zeus is dead, the whole world has become Hell. Thunderstorms were going on, tornadoes were raging, the ocean had risen, the sun was gone, plants had withered, and souls were roaming without a purpose.

So... what happened when Zeus died? The God of War wiki says that lightning was released into the sky, which makes sense given what Zeus is the god of.

But storms were already going on. So I guess Zeus' death just made the storms go into hyperdrive.

It's hard to say. We don't really get to see the effect of his death more than a quick lightning show. The plagued unleashed don't always have to do with the deity that died though. Hera has nothing to do with plants. That plague should have come with the death of Demeter, who is never seen, or Persephone, who is already long dead. Helios was the god of the sun and his death caused thunderstorms that blocked out the sun. That makes sense until you think about it for 3 seconds and realize that the sun is 93 million miles away and doing just fine and dandy (whih can be attested to the fact that the Earth didn't flash freeze). What happened was clouds and storms, nothing to do with the sun besides our momentary perception of it. Hermes' death unleashed swarms of disease-bearing insects. I get a headache just trying to figure that one out. No logical connection that I can see.

So Athena is really the Flemeth of the God of War series!

Don't be silly, everyone knows that Loki is Flemeth.

This makes a lot more sense.

So it seems that the evils and the plagues associated with them are determined by what the gods embodied. Since Poseidon was the God of the Seas, Anger's plague was the ocean rising. But if it had infected Hera, it wouldn't have been oceans rising.

Perhaps it's not as cut and dry as "this one got greed, this one got anger, ect." since only Zeus's paranoia is crystal clear. Poseidon was always a rageaholic. Hades may have legitimately hated Kratos for killing his family members, even if Kratos had damn good reasons (with the exception of Athena, who was an accident). Hera may have been a drunk for a long time, because wouldn't you be if you were married to someone that's known for having thrown his thunderbolt in every living thing with a vagina? In classical myth, Zeus even shapeshifted into animals to get laid. Who wouldn't start drinking when they catch their spouse doing that! Hercules was assumed to be infected with jealousy, but oddly no plague was released upon his death. So maybe he really WAS just that jealous of Kratos, or since he was introduced by the woman dedicated to making his life a living hell, Hera had manipulated him into believing it so he'd attack Kratos. Helios is blamed with deceit because he told one understandable lie while being beaten to death and Hephaestus is supposedly cursed with misery and depression while he's quite literally in hell. To say that those two are stretching it is an understatement. Perhaps the best example of how it's not clear cut from their demeanor... Kratos had hope. Does he seem like a guy beaming with hope to you? And his "I WILL accomplish my impossible goal!" attitude doesn't count since he's always had that.

The important part of this, for the sake of the discussion we were having, is that the world's problems are not Kratos' fault. He had no way of knowing what was sealed in Pandora's Box when it opened it (under orders from the gods I might add). From that moment on, the gods were turning evil. Releasing that evil unto the world sucks, but so does letting a kingdom of dark gods reign with impunity. This is the fault of the gods themselves, mostly Athena and Zeus.

Oh, I meant to say earlier that it's possible they took some artistic license with Helios' race. He was definitely a titan in the origin myth, but Gaia was definitely not a titan. She as the Earth. Like, all of it. Given that Helios was the size of a normal human, it's possible the version in GoW is an Olympian. Titans may be able to control their size as Olympians do, but it's just speculation. It's possible that the role Helios played was originally intended for Apollo, with whom he's often confused, and Apollo got cut in development. Apollo would also make more sense in the role aside from the chariot of the sun. Apollo is the god of light, Helios of the sun. Helios' death in GoW didn't do anything to the sun, but rather removed people's access to its light. Plus there's the flashlight head (woah, geth flashbacks).
I'd imagine Nemesis was also intended to be in the game but got cut. Besides the starting weapon, Kratos' weapons are taken from divine foes in mid-battle, with the exception of a whip that bears the name of a god. Nemesis was "the spirit of divine retribution against those who succumb to hubris (arrogance before the gods)". Gee, sound like something they'd send against Kratos? They really should've changed its name before pawning it off on the hunchback of Olympus. Especially if it meant he wasn't intended to die originally. Hephaestus was the only one I really felt bad for.

Still, I think that if Poseidon was abusing her there would've been bruising and broken limbs. And prior to her being crushed to death, she was perfectly fine.

I mean, God of War 3 already had a ****load of mature stuff. We can see Kratos using her as a tool but we can't see whether or not this girl was in fact beaten?

Fair enough. Good point.

In Greek Mythology, Pandora's box -- well, really it was a jar -- held within it great evils.

So that's how Miracle Whip came to be...

[tehprincessJ]

I'd be more excited to see a full-blown expansion (along the lines of 'Awakening', but better) before we see DA3. Particularly since DA3 isn't going to be about Hawke.

[KotorEffect3]

Take their time and do it right. Besides with ME 3 on the horizon I don't mind waiting. I have a galaxy to save.

[Tatinger]

tehprincessJ wrote...

I'd be more excited to see a full-blown expansion (along the lines of 'Awakening', but better) before we see DA3. Particularly since DA3 isn't going to be about Hawke.

Yeah, it'd be nice to have an end story for Hawke (I've grown rather fond of my Jo Wyatt-voiced character).  Even although Awakening wasn't the last DLC produced for DA:O maybe it should've been; the final image of your warden, looking pissed, and striding off camera was perhaps my favourite visual of the whole Dragon Age: Origins franchise.  An open-ending that somehow was also both decisive and final, as well.

Great stuff.

Modifié par Tatinger, 17 février 2012 - 08:11 .

[Rifneno]

FallTooDovahkiin wrote...

As long as the game doesn't take as near as long as Skyrim did, I'll be a happy person.

I don't see anything wrong with Da2, it has high re-playibilty, despite the copy and pasted dungeons. Other then that I never see a problem with it besides some buggy parts. Like in a Anders romance, he'll randomly start nodding his head then stop. Or Carvers eyes will lag sometimes.

Nothing that is a big complaint. But I really can't wait until they announce the game.

TES games always take as long as Skyrim did. I'd explain why, but I doubt anyone that's played a TES game would need an explanation.
You don't see anything wrong with DA2? Seriously? How about the storyline? Is there any way in which it isn't simply terrible? Handwaves, retcons, choices that aren't choices, pretty much everything you shouldn't do in writing was done in DA2. Usually multiple times. My favorite was "taking a critical piece of the story and hiding it in easily missable codexes (that very, very few players read anyway)."

[Tatinger]

Rifneno wrote...

FallTooDovahkiin wrote...

As long as the game doesn't take as near as long as Skyrim did, I'll be a happy person.

You don't see anything wrong with DA2? Seriously? How about the storyline? Is there any way in which it isn't simply terrible?

Dude, let it go.  Everybody agrees -- even the developers -- that the game did not live up to expectations but it's done, it's over.  There's no need to crap all over FallTooDovahkiin's opinion just because s/he happened to like a game you didn't. 

Live and let live.

Seriously.

Modifié par Tatinger, 18 février 2012 - 04:18 .

[Rifneno]

Tatinger wrote...

Dude, let it go.  Everybody agrees -- even the developers -- that the game did not live up to expectations but it's done, it's over.  There's no need to crap all over FallTooDovahkiin's opinion just because s/he happened to like a game you didn't. 

Live and let live.

Seriously.

Oh sorry, I mistook this for a DA2 forum.  You know, a place where people would discuss the game.

[Tatinger]

Rifneno wrote...

Tatinger wrote...

Dude, let it go.  Everybody agrees -- even the developers -- that the game did not live up to expectations but it's done, it's over.  There's no need to crap all over FallTooDovahkiin's opinion just because s/he happened to like a game you didn't. 

Live and let live.

Seriously.

Oh sorry, I mistook this for a DA2 forum.  You know, a place where people would discuss the game.

How's that cheval taste?  Tender enough for you?  I'm actually surprised that there's anything left on the bone after it had been buried in the ground for so long.  Must be a few, tasty, unreguritated tidbits left to chew though because people keep digging it up again and again some eleven months after the thing had supposedly died.  I mean, just look at how fresh it all looks...

Modifié par Tatinger, 18 février 2012 - 10:32 .

[Tatinger]

[DOUBLE POST DELETED]

Modifié par Tatinger, 18 février 2012 - 07:33 .