134 réponses à ce sujet

[khevan]

My 16y/o step daughter has Asperger's syndrome, and my son has been diagnosed on the Autism spectrum. While I can appreciate what the OP is saying, I can honestly say that neither my step-daughter or my son are "normal." That's not a bad thing, btw. There are clear indicators that they are different. I won't go into specifics here, because that would bloat this post way out of proportion, but suffice it to say that I can tell that they think differently from other people.

David Archer in Overlord was specifically portrayed as being on the severe end of the autism spectrum, and there are documented instances of severe autistic minds being savants. David is one of those. I don't find his portrayal demeaning to autistic people, or at all unrealistic, considering the setting.

I do think that autism is misunderstood by the general public, and cases of bullying and teasing are unfortunately common because of this misunderstanding. But I think the OP is reacting a bit too harshly as far as the ME franchise is concerned regarding the portrayal of autism.

Deception is a complete seperate issue, since I know from personal experience that autism cannot be "grown out of." It can be managed, and the condition can "improve," but it will never go away. Especially not a case as severe as Gillian's was described to be.

[syllogi]

Arcian wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Thank you, OP for making this thread. My son was diagnosed with an Autism Spectrum Disorder, and went to school with children all along the autism spectrum. I find it depressing that the writers of Overlord and the Mass Effect books apparently did no research into the condition before using it as a plot device repeatedly, and also make the common mistake of equating it with savantism.

In the case of David from Overlord, he was specifically stated to be a savant.

Deception, on the other hand...

I don't expect them to turn DLC into a public service announcement, but most people would see the word "savant" and think it's just a fancy term for saying he's smart, not realizing that Savant syndrome is a separate condition from autism.

Kim Peek, the man who Rain Man was based on, was not autistic.  He is a savant with a genetic disorder.  It would have been great if the movie was more accurate, and made the distinction between Dustin Hoffman's character's amazing memory and the portrayal of autism, but I know that Hollywood doesn't pay a lot of attention to facts.  Mass Effect, however, has used autism as a device in several books, and it would have been nice if some description of what autism actually *is* had been attempted.  I'm not even going to get into Deception "curing" Gillian...

Modifié par syllogi, 07 février 2012 - 06:23 .

[G3rman]

Just because they made one character that was pointed out to be autistic with some "stereotypical" autistic tendencies doesn't mean they did it wrong. Even if its a minority, there are some autistic cases with similar symptoms and perhaps Davids was severe?

I think you are blasting it out of perspective.

[khevan]

syllogi wrote...

I don't expect them to turn DLC into a public service announcement, but most people would see the word "savant" and think it's just a fancy term for saying he's smart, not realizing that Savant syndrome is a separate condition from autism.

Kim Peek, the man who Rain Man was based on, was not autistic.  He is a savant with a genetic disorder.  It would have been great if the movie was more accurate, and made the distinction between Dustin Hoffman's character's amazing memory and the portrayal of autism, but I know that Hollywood doesn't pay a lot of attention to facts.  Mass Effect, however, has used autism as a device in several books, and it would have been nice some description of what autism actually *is* had been attempted.  I'm not even going to get into Deception "curing" Gillian...

The link you quoted mentions that 50% of savants have autism, so it's not a logical leap or a fallacy to equate the two in a story.  Mass Effect is a story, first and foremost.  It doesn't go into detail about the seperate conditions, no, but neither does it get it wrong. 

[Shad0wOGRE]

syllogi wrote...

Thank you, OP for making this thread. My son was diagnosed with an Autism Spectrum Disorder, and went to school with children all along the autism spectrum. I find it depressing that the writers of Overlord and the Mass Effect books apparently did no research into the condition before using it as a plot device repeatedly, and also make the common mistake of equating it with savantism.

I love my son exactly the way he is, and while his ASD may lead to obstacles throughout his life, they also make him an exceptional and special person. If autism is going to be represented in media, I really wish an effort would be made to research the topic and educate people, instead of propagating myths.

David Archer was autistic, a savant, and he probably also had Eidetic memory. Having him be a high-functioning autistic wouldn't have worked for the story. His unique combination of disorders is what enabled him to communicate with the geth.

Gillian Grayson was almost certainly on the lower functioning end of the Asperger's part of the ASD spectrum. Her "growing out of it" is actually a possibility in about 20% of Aspies. The other part of the Gillian equation is we don't really know what Cerberus was doing to her and what the effects of it were. She may have been a high-functioning aspie if Cerberus hadn't been doping her with who-knows-what and the drug may have been exacerbating her condition.

[Dasher1010]

ediskrad327 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Dasher1010 wrote...
I think that Gillian will make an appearance in ME3. Also, Liara comes across like an aspie to me. Liara is also nothing like David.

uh.....Gillian is dead right?

it seems like it

I never read Deception. How does she die?

[basbaker]

khevan wrote...

My 16y/o step daughter has Asperger's syndrome, and my son has been diagnosed on the Autism spectrum. While I can appreciate what the OP is saying, I can honestly say that neither my step-daughter or my son are "normal." That's not a bad thing, btw. There are clear indicators that they are different. I won't go into specifics here, because that would bloat this post way out of proportion, but suffice it to say that I can tell that they think differently from other people.

David Archer in Overlord was specifically portrayed as being on the severe end of the autism spectrum, and there are documented instances of severe autistic minds being savants. David is one of those. I don't find his portrayal demeaning to autistic people, or at all unrealistic, considering the setting.

I do think that autism is misunderstood by the general public, and cases of bullying and teasing are unfortunately common because of this misunderstanding. But I think the OP is reacting a bit too harshly as far as the ME franchise is concerned regarding the portrayal of autism.

Deception is a complete seperate issue, since I know from personal experience that autism cannot be "grown out of." It can be managed, and the condition can "improve," but it will never go away. Especially not a case as severe as Gillian's was described to be.

^ This.  

I have two sons with ASDs, thankfully very high-functioning.  But I have seen all points along the spectrum.  David's condition is just one type among many.  Awareness about autism is growing the more that the condition is actually recognized and properly diagnosed, which in turn will breed a greater understanding as time goes on.

I understand the OPs concerns and agree that media in general need to deal responsibly with the topic.  But I'm also optimistic that slowly, misconceptions are changing.  Have hope.

[syllogi]

khevan wrote...

The link you quoted mentions that 50% of savants have autism, so it's not a logical leap or a fallacy to equate the two in a story.  Mass Effect is a story, first and foremost.  It doesn't go into detail about the seperate conditions, no, but neither does it get it wrong. 

My point is that they've had opportunities, especially in the books, to portray autism more realistically, and even if it were in passing, to point out that savantism is separate from autism.  Just because roughly half of savants have some form of autism, doesn't mean that all those diagnosed with autism are savants.

It may not matter to most people in this thread, but it matters to the OP.  David in Overlord was really an over the top portrayal of savantism/autism...if you'd ever met someone with classical autism in real life, you'd know it was nothing like that.

Then you have the choice to basically torture the character, at the end, with the excuse that it could help others down the road.  Again, it may not matter to most people, but if you are someone who is looking for positive portrayals of autism in media, that's not a shining moment.

[Zatou]

Gretnablue wrote...

I live a normal life. I socialize, I have friends and family I get good grades at school
and I basically lead just an ordinary life.

Beats me.

[khevan]

syllogi wrote...

khevan wrote...

The link you quoted mentions that 50% of savants have autism, so it's not a logical leap or a fallacy to equate the two in a story.  Mass Effect is a story, first and foremost.  It doesn't go into detail about the seperate conditions, no, but neither does it get it wrong. 

My point is that they've had opportunities, especially in the books, to portray autism more realistically, and even if it were in passing, to point out that savantism is separate from autism.  Just because roughly half of savants have some form of autism, doesn't mean that all those diagnosed with autism are savants.

It may not matter to most people in this thread, but it matters to the OP.  David in Overlord was really an over the top portrayal of savantism/autism...if you'd ever met someone with classical autism in real life, you'd know it was nothing like that.

Then you have the choice to basically torture the character, at the end, with the excuse that it could help others down the road.  Again, it may not matter to most people, but if you are someone who is looking for positive portrayals of autism in media, that's not a shining moment.

Um, David Archer's condition in Overlord was realistic.  There are cases of severe autistic minds having savant-like abilities.  It fit the story, it was factually realistic, and it made sense.  That's all that needs to happen for a story to work.

I'm with you on wishing there was more understanding of autism in the media, since ASD is poorly understood.  But trying to hold a game developer accountable for this is stretching things.  Bioware's intent is to tell a story, to make a good game, and make money from those games.  How they portrayed David Archer in Overlord worked in that context.  Don't look to a game developer to raise public awareness on issues.  That's not their role, and getting upset at them for not doing so is akin to being mad at a water hose because it didn't dry you off after you got wet.

That's all I'm saying.  OP has a point, but it's a bit too harsh regarding the ME franchise, in my opinion.

[Arkitekt]

khevan wrote...

My 16y/o step daughter has Asperger's syndrome, and my son has been diagnosed on the Autism spectrum. While I can appreciate what the OP is saying, I can honestly say that neither my step-daughter or my son are "normal." That's not a bad thing, btw. There are clear indicators that they are different. I won't go into specifics here, because that would bloat this post way out of proportion, but suffice it to say that I can tell that they think differently from other people.

David Archer in Overlord was specifically portrayed as being on the severe end of the autism spectrum, and there are documented instances of severe autistic minds being savants. David is one of those. I don't find his portrayal demeaning to autistic people, or at all unrealistic, considering the setting.

I do think that autism is misunderstood by the general public, and cases of bullying and teasing are unfortunately common because of this misunderstanding. But I think the OP is reacting a bit too harshly as far as the ME franchise is concerned regarding the portrayal of autism.

Deception is a complete seperate issue, since I know from personal experience that autism cannot be "grown out of." It can be managed, and the condition can "improve," but it will never go away. Especially not a case as severe as Gillian's was described to be.

QFT

[mulder1199]

jreezy wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Dasher1010 wrote...
I think that Gillian will make an appearance in ME3. Also, Liara comes across like an aspie to me. Liara is also nothing like David.

uh.....Gillian is dead right?

In some alternate universe. Her status in the canon of Mass Effect is unknown.

i had a dream last night that 'deception' was available at a kiosk on the citadel....i was outraged that i could complain to the shop clerk about it being crappy....

[syllogi]

khevan wrote...

syllogi wrote...

khevan wrote...

The link you quoted mentions that 50% of savants have autism, so it's not a logical leap or a fallacy to equate the two in a story.  Mass Effect is a story, first and foremost.  It doesn't go into detail about the seperate conditions, no, but neither does it get it wrong. 

My point is that they've had opportunities, especially in the books, to portray autism more realistically, and even if it were in passing, to point out that savantism is separate from autism.  Just because roughly half of savants have some form of autism, doesn't mean that all those diagnosed with autism are savants.

It may not matter to most people in this thread, but it matters to the OP.  David in Overlord was really an over the top portrayal of savantism/autism...if you'd ever met someone with classical autism in real life, you'd know it was nothing like that.

Then you have the choice to basically torture the character, at the end, with the excuse that it could help others down the road.  Again, it may not matter to most people, but if you are someone who is looking for positive portrayals of autism in media, that's not a shining moment.

Um, David Archer's condition in Overlord was realistic.  There are cases of severe autistic minds having savant-like abilities.  It fit the story, it was factually realistic, and it made sense.  That's all that needs to happen for a story to work.

I'm with you on wishing there was more understanding of autism in the media, since ASD is poorly understood.  But trying to hold a game developer accountable for this is stretching things.  Bioware's intent is to tell a story, to make a good game, and make money from those games.  How they portrayed David Archer in Overlord worked in that context.  Don't look to a game developer to raise public awareness on issues.  That's not their role, and getting upset at them for not doing so is akin to being mad at a water hose because it didn't dry you off after you got wet.

That's all I'm saying.  OP has a point, but it's a bit too harsh regarding the ME franchise, in my opinion.

What about David's portrayal was realistic, other than his monotone delivery?  It wasn't realistic, because savants are extremely rare (and again, even if half of savants are autistic, statistically, very few people diagnosed as autistic are savants), and it was sensational, since his "gifts" were used as an excuse to torture him.

Honestly, this isn't a huge issue in the scheme of things, which is why I've never brought up the subject, but as a mother, I don't know if I want my son to see Rain Man or play Overlord, at least while he's young.  Do you want your own son to have these sort of portrayals as the *only* way autism is represented in fiction?

[Dasher1010]

And nobody nor the ME wiki have said how Gillian dies.

[izmirtheastarach]

Dasher1010 wrote...

And nobody nor the ME wiki have said how Gillian dies.

Kai Leng stabs her to death with a toothbrush sharpened into a prison-style shank.

No, this is not a joke.

She will not be appearing in ME3.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 07 février 2012 - 06:56 .

[khevan]

syllogi wrote...

What about David's portrayal was realistic, other than his monotone delivery?  It wasn't realistic, because savants are extremely rare (and again, even if half of savants are autistic, statistically, very few people diagnosed as autistic are savants), and it was sensational, since his "gifts" were used as an excuse to torture him.

Honestly, this isn't a huge issue in the scheme of things, which is why I've never brought up the subject, but as a mother, I don't know if I want my son to see Rain Man or play Overlord, at least while he's young.  Do you want your own son to have these sort of portrayals as the *only* way autism is represented in fiction?

His reaction to loud noises was spot on, for one.  My step-daughter had to switch classes in grade school because the one she was in was too loud.  It caused her to have emotional breakdowns and hide under her desk.  I've gone to school on several occasions to talk her out and help her calm down.  Not all autistic people have this aversion to loud noises, but it is common.

And severely autistic people are common.  The savant abilities portrayed in Rain Man and Overlord are rare, but they do exist, and I don't see the problem with telling stories about them.  As a parent, it's my job to provide context to what my children see on TV and in entertainment media.  It's my job to raise my kids, not to have the media do it for me.

I would have no issue with my children seeing Rain Man, and since there are other issues in ME that make it a Mature rated game, I'd keep them from playing it until they were old enough, but David's condition in Overlord (aside from the ending, which I do think was sensationalized, but not the autism part) is not one of the reasons I'd keep them from playing.

I see what you're saying, I honestly do, but I think you're taking things a bit too far, and expecting things from sources that you shouldn't expect them from.

[Dasher1010]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Dasher1010 wrote...

And nobody nor the ME wiki have said how Gillian dies.

Kai Leng stabs her to death with a toothbrush sharpened into a prison-style shank.

No, this is not a joke.

She will not be appearing in ME3.

Wow, that's the lamest **** ever. Killing off a fifteen-year-old kid is lame enough. Doing it with a toothbrush is just.... terrible writing. Deception needs to be declared non-canon.

[izmirtheastarach]

Dasher1010 wrote...

Wow, that's the lamest **** ever. Killing off a fifteen-year-old kid is lame enough. Doing it with a toothbrush is just.... terrible writing. Deception needs to be declared non-canon.

No no, it's fine. Because she's 18 now. In the three years that seperate Ascension and Deception, she has aged 5 years.

Also not a joke.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 07 février 2012 - 07:11 .

[Atakuma]

Being autistic myself the only thing that really irritated me was deception's idea that you can just grow out of it or whatever.

[syllogi]

khevan wrote...

syllogi wrote...

What about David's portrayal was realistic, other than his monotone delivery?  It wasn't realistic, because savants are extremely rare (and again, even if half of savants are autistic, statistically, very few people diagnosed as autistic are savants), and it was sensational, since his "gifts" were used as an excuse to torture him.

Honestly, this isn't a huge issue in the scheme of things, which is why I've never brought up the subject, but as a mother, I don't know if I want my son to see Rain Man or play Overlord, at least while he's young.  Do you want your own son to have these sort of portrayals as the *only* way autism is represented in fiction?

His reaction to loud noises was spot on, for one.  My step-daughter had to switch classes in grade school because the one she was in was too loud.  It caused her to have emotional breakdowns and hide under her desk.  I've gone to school on several occasions to talk her out and help her calm down.  Not all autistic people have this aversion to loud noises, but it is common.

And severely autistic people are common.  The savant abilities portrayed in Rain Man and Overlord are rare, but they do exist, and I don't see the problem with telling stories about them.  As a parent, it's my job to provide context to what my children see on TV and in entertainment media.  It's my job to raise my kids, not to have the media do it for me.

I would have no issue with my children seeing Rain Man, and since there are other issues in ME that make it a Mature rated game, I'd keep them from playing it until they were old enough, but David's condition in Overlord (aside from the ending, which I do think was sensationalized, but not the autism part) is not one of the reasons I'd keep them from playing.

I see what you're saying, I honestly do, but I think you're taking things a bit too far, and expecting things from sources that you shouldn't expect them from.

Severely autistic people are often non-verbal, so no, I still don't see David as realistic.  My son was mainstreamed this year, but for the past three years he's been in a class with autistic children who were both verbal and non verbal, and had varying symptoms.  None of them were savants, and while, yeah, I'm very aware of the noise issue (it saddens me that my son hates music), that one thing doesn't change that David is portrayed more as an object (literally, since he can't even move), than a person.  

Does Bioware *owe* autistic people positive and/or realistic portrayals?  Nah, but as I said before, Drew could have easily included even a paragraph describing Gillian's condition, and I would have been more satisfied.  As it is, I'm not sure why they're even using that particular condition, especially since they handwaved it for Deception.

I'm looking at the issue from the point of view of the OP, and I have sympathy.  Maybe it's because I have been bullied for many reasons as a kid, and I know how it is to feel alone and like a freak, for something you have no control over.  Would it have been a bad thing to give Gillian more depth, by describing her condition more fully?

[Fidget6]

Atakuma wrote...

Being autistic myself the only thing that really irritated me was deception's idea that you can just grow out of it or whatever.

You can't grow out of it, but you CAN learn to adapt with it and become much less socially awkward over time. I know because I have myself. The autism is still there. But it's much easier to "deal with" now.

[izmirtheastarach]

jreezy wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...


She will not be appearing in ME3.

Assuming everything in that travesty of a book is canon. I'm not sure anymore.

I figure that they thought it was canon when they were working on the content for ME3. Hard to turn it around now. But we'll see. Wouldn't that make Deception even sillier if the events have no impact on ME3?

[Atakuma]

Fidget6 wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Being autistic myself the only thing that really irritated me was deception's idea that you can just grow out of it or whatever.

You can't grow out of it, but you CAN learn to adapt with it and become much less socially awkward over time. I know because I have myself. The autism is still there. But it's much easier to "deal with" now.

Yes I know, But that is not what happens in the book. If it was, then I wouldn't be irritated by it.

Modifié par Atakuma, 07 février 2012 - 07:20 .