134 réponses à ce sujet

[khevan]

syllogi wrote...

Severely autistic people are often non-verbal, so no, I still don't see David as realistic.  My son was mainstreamed this year, but for the past three years he's been in a class with autistic children who were both verbal and non verbal, and had varying symptoms.  None of them were savants, and while, yeah, I'm very aware of the noise issue (it saddens me that my son hates music), that one thing doesn't change that David is portrayed more as an object (literally, since he can't even move), than a person.  

Does Bioware *owe* autistic people positive and/or realistic portrayals?  Nah, but as I said before, Drew could have easily included even a paragraph describing Gillian's condition, and I would have been more satisfied.  As it is, I'm not sure why they're even using that particular condition, especially since they handwaved it for Deception.

I'm looking at the issue from the point of view of the OP, and I have sympathy.  Maybe it's because I have been bullied for many reasons as a kid, and I know how it is to feel alone and like a freak, for something you have no control over.  Would it have been a bad thing to give Gillian more depth, by describing her condition more fully?

This is my last post on the subject, since I have to go to work, but I wanted to respond real quick.

ASD is the autism SPECTRUM disorder, meaning that there's a sliding scale of how severe the issue is.  It's also not one specific diagnosis.  Some autistic people exhibit certain traits while others exhibit other traits.  David is obviously moderately severe, where he retains verbal abilities, but displays other autistic traits.

It's not an all or nothing disorder, where you can have high functioning, near-normal people, or severe to the point where they don't speak, don't interact at all, etc.

David is in the middle of the spectrum, and he displays savantlike abilities.  Neither of those conditions are mutually exclusive, and both are portrayed relatively realistically.  So, I don't have any issue with how he was portrayed in Overlord. 

Having never read the books, I can't comment on how Gillian's autism was presented.  I mentioned Gillian earlier, yes, but I based my comment on comments of others as to how severe she was, and everyone mentioned that she was fairly severely autistic.  Other than that, I cannot comment, so this part of the conversation is moot.

I was bullied relentlessly as a child, and I think that bullying needs more exposure in the media, but I wouldn't hold a game developer accountable for the issue.  Now, I've got to get to work, but feel free to continue the discussion in my absence. 

[izmirtheastarach]

The PLC wrote...

I don't understand why this matters. ME3 is a piece of entertainment.

I've heard you say that before. It's such an odd position. So because it's entertainment, the producers of that entertainment can completely abdicate all resposibility. Racism, sexism, brutal violence, who cares? It's just a piece of entertainment, right? No reason to approach any subject responsibly. Because it's just for fun. Right?

[Arkitekt]

Khevan, that's a very fair comment.

[izmirtheastarach]

The PLC wrote...

People died. People that could have shown up in ME3.

Did you read the previous posts that you quoted there? That is what we were saying.

[Dragoonlordz]

Beginning to think there is not a single non disabled, inflicted, unwell or just in general suffering from something member on BSN these days. Just seems whenever someone says they have something everyone else seems to have it too, in cases where they have not got it they turn out to have something else instead. No offense just something I noticed happening a lot on here recently.

[mybudgee]

People people! Lets not be ignorant and... uh...nevermind *leaves room, shaking head*

[Fidget6]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Beginning to think there is not a single non disabled, inflicted, unwell or just in general suffering from something member on BSN these days. Just seems whenever someone says they have something everyone else seems to have it too, in cases where they have not got it they turn out to have something else instead. No offense just something I noticed happening a lot on here recently.

It kind of makes sense though. Many autistic people are drawn to video games. Especially games like Mass Effect where they feel like they can carry a meaningful conversation/romance without it being painfully awkward. Or at least in my experience, that's a pretty cool thing. >_>

Modifié par Fidget6, 07 février 2012 - 07:31 .

[kromify]

syllogi wrote...

Thank you, OP for making this thread.

^ this. 

the media for the most part just doesn't know any better. they take what they know from other media, not facts.

[Dragoonlordz]

Fidget6 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Beginning to think there is not a single non disabled, inflicted, unwell or just in general suffering from something member on BSN these days. Just seems whenever someone says they have something everyone else seems to have it too, in cases where they have not got it they turn out to have something else instead. No offense just something I noticed happening a lot on here recently.

It kind of makes sense though. Many autistic people are drawn to video games. Especially games like Mass Effect where they feel like they can carry a meaningful conversation/romance without it being painfully awkward. Or at least in my experience, that's a pretty cool thing. >_>

Makes sense, I can't disagree with that. Was just an observation.

[Fidget6]

kromify wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Thank you, OP for making this thread.

^ this. 

the media for the most part just doesn't know any better. they take what they know from other media, not facts.

I thought the autistic character on Grey's Anatomy while a bit severe, was pretty realistic:

Modifié par Fidget6, 07 février 2012 - 07:35 .

[Dragoonlordz]

jreezy wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Beginning to think there is not a single non disabled, inflicted, unwell or just in general suffering from something member on BSN these days. Just seems whenever someone says they have something everyone else seems to have it too, in cases where they have not got it they turn out to have something else instead. No offense just something I noticed happening a lot on here recently.

Something must be wrong with you in order for you to post on these boards. It's a prerequisite.

Yeh I got heart problems and results of blood test for cancer due next week on 14th (obviously hope comes up negative though and just something else causing my issues which don't intend to go into detail about on a forum). 

So what you said is true. Your on BSN so whats wrong with you? 

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 07 février 2012 - 07:46 .

[syllogi]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

The PLC wrote...

I don't understand why this matters. ME3 is a piece of entertainment.

I've heard you say that before. It's such an odd position. So because it's entertainment, the producers of that entertainment can completely abdicate all resposibility. Racism, sexism, brutal violence, who cares? It's just a piece of entertainment, right? No reason to approach any subject responsibly. Because it's just for fun. Right?

This is pretty much where I'm at.  While Bioware doesn't *have* to be responsible in how they portray autism, it would be *nice* of them to do so.  

Remember when sitcoms would have Very Special Episodes, like when Tom Hanks was the drunk uncle on Family Ties, and then Michael J. Fox came out at the end of the episode to recite the phone number for an alcoholism hotline?  That was way back in the "unPC" Eighties.  If you're planning to tackle a tough subject, it is a courtesy to educate the audience on the issue, rather than just using it for reaction.

And @Khevan, yeah, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on David in Overlord.  It's all semantics anyway, since even a megasavant, realistically, isn't as intelligent as David is supposed to be.

[MEGoWH777]

I have Asperger Syndrome and the only thing it does to me is to make shy around strangers and not look them in the eye. But i'm getting better at doing this so i've come up with a theroy that my shepard is autistic but outgrew it just like i seem to be doing whch is why he get's so angry when he see's what Dr.Archer did to David.

[Jorec]

Personally I hope to see David again if we go to Grissom Academy. The paragon ending to Overlord was so sad, but in that happy way because you know he is going to get help.

[izmirtheastarach]

The PLC wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

The PLC wrote...

I don't understand why this matters. ME3 is a piece of entertainment.

I've heard you say that before. It's such an odd position. So because it's entertainment, the producers of that entertainment can completely abdicate all resposibility. Racism, sexism, brutal violence, who cares? It's just a piece of entertainment, right? No reason to approach any subject responsibly. Because it's just for fun. Right?

Yup. It's not Bioware's job to inform people about autism in real life.

No one said it was. But what possible reason is there for them to not portray it realistically? Especially in the case of Gillian. It's very clear that Drew wanted to make it as real as possible. So why did they allow Dietz to completely ignore that facet of the character.

As to the larger issues, the idea that all entertainment has no resposibility at all is ridiculous. It's a good thing we don't live in the world you seem to want. If the principle were that black and white, you could produce any kind of hate speech you wanted, and no one would be able to object as long as you just called it "entertainment".

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 07 février 2012 - 07:44 .

[Fidget6]

Arcian wrote...

MEGoWH777 wrote...

I have Asperger Syndrome and the only thing it does to me is to make shy around strangers and not look them in the eye. But i'm getting better at doing this so i've come up with a theroy that my shepard is autistic but outgrew it just like i seem to be doing whch is why he get's so angry when he see's what Dr.Archer did to David.

That's not Aspergers, that's poor social skills. There's a big difference between the two.

Yep, some people incorrectly self-diagnose themselves. Asperger's makes it almost painful to directly look someone in the eye, makes you go on sensory overload if too much is going on at once, will cause meltdowns, often people will need to do various comforting "stims", and all sorts of other fun stuff. Just being shy doesn't qualify as being autistic.

[Billabong2011]

OP, thank you for such an articulate argument, and I agree with you on many points. I cannot speak for Deception or any of the other novels seeing as I haven't read them -- though from what I've heard the issue was handled poorly and without any respect -- but in the case of David Archer, while I agree he could have been handled better, I believe he was chosen because he was a mathematical savant, and numerical coding is how geth communicate with one another (like any computer). In this way, he was able to understand them (and they us) at a deeper level.

I was never under the impression that he was of a 'weaker' mind than any normal person. It was more his affinity for mathematical understanding that allowed him to communicate with the geth so well. I remember when Shepard asks Legion why/how it talks when all the other geth he's heard make a 'stuttering' sound, Legion says it is more efficient and faster for its people to communicate with coding rather than words. So 'culturally,' if we can apply that term to the geth, David Archer understood them better, making him a more viable candidate for Overlord's horrid practices.

Modifié par Billabong2011, 07 février 2012 - 07:48 .