134 réponses à ce sujet

[izmirtheastarach]

Billabong2011 wrote...

OP, thank you for such an articulate argument, and I agree with you on many points. I cannot speak for Deception or any of the other novels seeing as I haven't read them -- though from what I've heard the issue was handled poorly and without any respect

Very imortant to note that in Karpyshan's Ascension (where Gillian is introduce) the subject is treated very respectfully. The character is compelling and interesting.

It's only in Dietz's Deception where the problem occurs. He completely ignores her Autism, and makes her into a generic 18 year old girl with no character at all.

[Fault Girl]

It's not really bad social skills, people cant understand unless they suffer from it.

When I had my test done for educational reasons, I thought I had autism/aspergers, turns out it was memory/communication affected dyslexia. (cant remember the correct term)

I hate it when people think it's just poor social skills. I have such difficultly talking to people and being able to speak. People dont think english is my first language. Doesnt help that I'm socially awkward due to people making fun of my speech patterns and how I interact with people.

It takes every effort for me to look people in the eye and even when I do, it takes all of my concentration. I hate it.

Even when someones talking to me, I have to have 100% concentration or I wont understand a single word they are saying.

Have a semi-high IQ but memory/speech skills of a young child. People just think I'm not bright.

Luckily I'm a okay writer, sadly that doesnt help with getting jobs when they meet in me person.

EDIT: I'm trying to help myself, got a job in retail. Find it hard to go everyday but I'm learning. I am pretty much stuck in the stockroom though.

On topic, most films/games focus on the most known version of disorders/illnesses.

Modifié par Vault N7, 07 février 2012 - 07:56 .

[Drake-Shepard]

I have not seen mercury rising in a while and have not played overload in a year, so I can't remember exactly how everything is revealed.

If they simply say he is autistic so he can do this randomly cool code breaking in his head without explaining that 99.9% of diagnosed people cannot then that is ridiculous.

If however they do then this is still worrying because the only thing that sticks to a typical viewer is autistic= anti social + super code breaker/computer brain geth communicator

You may say it is not bioware's responsibility to fully educate us about the more common symptoms of autism...which is true.... but it just reflects poorly on them and anyone else that repeats this poor cliché again and again, but just in a different setting, altering it ever so slightly to justify it.

[izmirtheastarach]

The PLC wrote...

Okay, I admit that I didn't make myself clear enough on this subject. Of course I wasn't talking about ALL entertainment. There's many great movies (and a few games) out there that deal with real life issues, in a respectful and informing way. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't understand why people are making such a big deal out of this whole autism "issue" in a videogame like Mass Effect. It's a game about a galaxy-wide war, where millions of people are dying, and you people are talking about autism. 

Where I come from, we like to refer to that as 'free speech'. I never said that people weren't allowed to object, I'm just saying that I don't see why it's such a big deal.

It really seemed like you were claiming it was a complete black and white issues. If not, then fine.

I do want to say that I believe strongly in free speech. That's not really the point. No one is saying that Bioware or any other entertainment company CANNOT do certain things. Just that maybe they shouldn't. There is a big difference.

And it's fine for it to not be a big deal for YOU. But I don't see why you can't understand that it IS a big deal for some people. Every single person in the world has views that are different from yours. So it should be pretty easy to figure out.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 07 février 2012 - 08:07 .

[Mister Mida]

I can understand OP's perspective. But from my perspective of autim, fueled by years of experience with it, I didn't have a problem with Overlord's projection of it. Sure, you got your Rain Men and your Davids, and their in the minority of the autistic population. But unfortunately, if the general public wants to see autistic folk in media, they have to be 'freak' in order to be interesting. If someone manages to make an interesting autistic character that doesn't fall in the Rain Man category, though...

[Giantdeathrobot]

My brother has low functionality autism. As in, not capable of speech, very little empathy, mostly just wants to be left alone, and wants to follow a strict schedule because he hates surprises. I haven't read any of the books, but the treatment of David Archer seemed very realistic and not offensive at all. Indeed, it hit so close to home I shed a tear at his brother's atrocity and was very dissapointed I could not kill that monster.

[izmirtheastarach]

The PLC wrote...

As soon as movie makers, game makers, or even musicians, starts to think about what they 'maybe shouldn't do', they're failing as an artist. David for example, is Bioware's character. If they feel that he need to act like he does to be able to tell the story they want to tell, so be it.

I'm not telling people what to think, but stating my opinion like everyone else. I won't derail this thread any further. Sorry OP.

I suppose I don't disagree with that. They are free to do whatever they feel. But in a case where they are TRYING to portray something in a sensitive manner, it's seems perfectly logical for them to accept constructive criticism about the portrayal itself. It's less an issue of artistry when they are trying to recreate a real world issue in a fictional universe.

I have no trouble understanding why OP or anyone else would be bothered by the portrayal. Regardless of what my opinion is, for someone (not me) who does have a stake in the public perception I'm sure it's a much bigger issues then it might appear to you or me.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 07 février 2012 - 08:18 .

[C9316]

Hey Shepard got better from Death, who's to say Gillian couldn't get better from Autism?

[HTTP 404]

good for you gretnablue. I work with kids on the spectrum and they have aspergers. they are the most fun kids to be around. yes sometimes things are more literal and sarcasm doesn't really work that doesn't mean they don't laugh at jokes. although many can have persevering thoughts, I think it was overdone in general in the entertainment biz by showing just the severe cases.  I agree with a lot of points you make, especially on the assumption that anyone who has autism or asbergers doesn't mean they are severely limited.

Modifié par HTTP 404, 07 février 2012 - 08:28 .

[tch2296]

I think it's silly when people blow things out of proportion and make a big deal of of stuff that really isn't a big deal at all. I can understand why the OP might thing that the media in general needs to update its depiciotn of autistic people but to claim that ME is particularly inaccurate and offensive is over-the-top.

It irritates me that we now live in a world where we have to be so incredibly politically correct about everything. Even in cases like this, where the developer clearly didn't intend for the material to be offensive (and it is by no means a totally inaccurate depiction of severe autism), there is always gonna be someone who is offended.

I think in general society should be sensitive and sympathetic to the needs and feelings of people with disabilities. But by no means should this impede on the narrative abilities of authors/developers/directors. When creating fiction, we shouldn't have to be worried about who we are going to offend by not being perfectly PC - we live in a country that emphasizes our right to free speech. By impeding on an artist's ability to say what he wants and express things freely, you are impeding and censoring their work. That's not something I am okay with, period. If you really are that offended by the portrayal of autism in Mass Effect, then stop buying Mass Effect products.

Modifié par tch2296, 07 février 2012 - 08:33 .

[Fidget6]

The PLC wrote...

tch2296 wrote...
It irritates me that we now live in a world where we have to be so incredibly politically correct about everything. Even in cases like this, where the developer clearly didn't intend for the material to be offensive (and it is by no means a totally inaccurate depiction of severe autism), there is always gonna be someone who is offended.

This is pretty much what I've been wanting to say. You just put it way better than I ever could with my broken english (which would probably have offended someone really badly, even if I didn't mean to).

Great post.

Broken English? Your English is fine. 

[izmirtheastarach]

The PLC wrote...

tch2296 wrote...
It irritates me that we now live in a world where we have to be so incredibly politically correct about everything. Even in cases like this, where the developer clearly didn't intend for the material to be offensive (and it is by no means a totally inaccurate depiction of severe autism), there is always gonna be someone who is offended.

This is pretty much what I've been wanting to say. You just put it way better than I ever could with my broken english (which would probably have offended someone really badly, even if I didn't mean to).

Great post.

Seeing how many disparate views there are in the world, it's likely that anything ever created has probably offended someone in some way. It's not really a new thing. The thing you seem to be annoyed with her is the idea that people should not be allowed to say things that are offensive, in order to spare the feelings of those who might be offended.

I want to clarify in my exchange with PLC, I didn't want to suggest that Bioware should not be allowed to put in their game whatever they want. We're not talking about censorship here. But there is still nothing wrong with constructive criticism, especially from someone with personal knowledge of the issue in question.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 07 février 2012 - 08:40 .

[Dragoonlordz]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

The PLC wrote...

tch2296 wrote...
It irritates me that we now live in a world where we have to be so incredibly politically correct about everything. Even in cases like this, where the developer clearly didn't intend for the material to be offensive (and it is by no means a totally inaccurate depiction of severe autism), there is always gonna be someone who is offended.

This is pretty much what I've been wanting to say. You just put it way better than I ever could with my broken english (which would probably have offended someone really badly, even if I didn't mean to).

Great post.

Seeing how many disparate views there are in the world, it's likely that anything ever created has probably offended someone in some way. It's not really a new thing. The thing you seem to be annoyed with her is the idea that people should not be allowed to say things that are offensive, in order to spare the feelings of those who might be offended.

I want to clarify in my exchange with PLC, I didn't want to suggest that Bioware should not be allowed to put in their game whatever they want. We're not talking about censorship here. But there is still nothing wrong with constructive criticism, especially from someone with personal knowledge of the issue in question.

On the subject of offended.

[HTTP 404]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

The PLC wrote...

tch2296 wrote...
It irritates me that we now live in a world where we have to be so incredibly politically correct about everything. Even in cases like this, where the developer clearly didn't intend for the material to be offensive (and it is by no means a totally inaccurate depiction of severe autism), there is always gonna be someone who is offended.

This is pretty much what I've been wanting to say. You just put it way better than I ever could with my broken english (which would probably have offended someone really badly, even if I didn't mean to).

Great post.

Seeing how many disparate views there are in the world, it's likely that anything ever created has probably offended someone in some way. It's not really a new thing. The thing you seem to be annoyed with her is the idea that people should not be allowed to say things that are offensive, in order to spare the feelings of those who might be offended.

I want to clarify in my exchange with PLC, I didn't want to suggest that Bioware should not be allowed to put in their game whatever they want. We're not talking about censorship here. But there is still nothing wrong with constructive criticism, especially from someone with personal knowledge of the issue in question.

I agree with this.  I don't think bioware should "censor" themselves or do any other "extreme" solution.  I think OP was brave to put him/herself out there to talk about this and I acknowledge the frustration about it.  however, the reality is, is that we shouldn't have to be PC about it...a conversation about autism is a start.

[izmirtheastarach]

HTTP 404 wrote...

I agree with this.  I don't think bioware should "censor" themselves or do any other "extreme" solution.  I think OP was brave to put him/herself out there to talk about this and I acknowledge the frustration about it.  however, the reality is, is that we shouldn't have to be PC about it...a conversation about autism is a start.

Right, If Bioware had not created a character like this, then there would be no basis for that discussion. So they should be applauded for doing so, but so should the OP for trying to provide his informed feedback.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 07 février 2012 - 08:52 .

[DxWill10]

Unfortunately, as others have said, it's not Bioware's job.  And of course the obligatory:  If you don't like them, don't buy their products. 

Seriously though, Bioware / EA will always be a business first and foremost.  I totally understand why you guys want more autism awareness in Mass Effect.  But just because you want it to happen doesn't mean it's in Bioware's best interest to do it.  All they care about is a good story /  game, as is the case with everyone in such a business. Because a good game = $$ (not to mention the satisfaction of having the approval of the fans of course :-p ) 

Again, totally understand why you want Bioware to specifically focus on raising awareness on a controversial issue behind one of the subjects their story contains because it strikes home to you. (autism in this case)  But I think expecting them to do this would be an unrealistic hope.  I've done a fair share of it myself ( 2 severely autistic relatives).  People are learning and the word is getting out.  Just not in Hollywood blockbusters or video games.

It's not as if Bioware is the only culprit here.  There are a plethora of subjects just as sensitive as autism.  If there had been another issue in Overlord instead of autism, I can bet it wouldn't get any more detailed info than David's autism did.

If you're trying to put more autism awareness in the media/world, I applaud and whole heartedly approve.  But imo BSN is the wrong place to come

[Mike Shepard]

Fidget6 wrote...

I have high functioning autism as well. I haven't played the Overlord DLC, but from what you describe I don't think they were trying to say he could talk to machines because he was an autistic freak, people with autism often obsess over very specific subjects and because of that are usually extremely gifted in some area. I'm guessing the geth was the area they chose for that character? As for why autistic characters are shown to be extremely awkward in media, it's the same reason gay characters are always shown to be victimized. For dramatic purposes to make the character and story more interesting.

the whole idea I think is that the Geth language is based on mathematics and David, like many with autism, is a mathematical prodigy. He is seen listing off square roots of odd numbers ("the square root of 906.01 is 30.1..."). David is portrayed as being able to speak to the Geth because he can reproduce the geth language which is again as far as I can tell based on mathematics.

[izmirtheastarach]

DxWill10 wrote...

Again, totally understand why you want Bioware to specifically focus on raising awareness on a controversial issue behind one of the subjects their story contains because it strikes home to you. (autism in this case)  But I think expecting them to do this would be an unrealistic hope.  I've done a fair share of it myself ( 2 severely autistic relatives).  People are learning and the word is getting out.  Just not in Hollywood blockbusters or video games.

But they have included two Autistic character in their universe. This isn't a situation where someone is suggesting that they do. They already have. There seems to be a distinction there.

[Icinix]

DxWill10 wrote...

Unfortunately, as others have said, it's not Bioware's job.  And of course the obligatory:  If you don't like them, don't buy their products. 

The problem with not buying products, is rather than change their model - they throw hissy fits and blame consumers for some reason or another.

Ubisoft and PC gaming springs to mind as a recent example of consumers exercising their right to not buy their products.

Consumer power is not as strong as people think it is - its the age of Shareholder power.

[Alraiis]

I confess to know little about the finer details of autism, but if it is a spectrum, and if cases similar to David Archer's are at one end of it, then I see no problem with creating a single, specific character who is that way.

For example: I am legally blind. My vision is 20/400 after correction; nothing too  serious. The common Hollywood "blind person," on the other hand, is always totally blind and invariably has super-hearing verging on sonar and/or a similarly incredible sense of smell. That isn't an unrealistic portrayal—people with those capabilities are out there. It's just a representation of a small piece of the broad spectrum of visual disorders.

Writers find the extreme ends of the spectrum interesting because it's something many people haven't encountered.  Portraying characters that way may be seen as a lazy tactic (it usually  is), and it may have the unfortunate side effect of people creating false expectations of what a word like "autistic" or "blind" entails. I can see how this is especially problematic in this case, because the extreme depictions of autism create some potentially negative associations. Still, I don't think it's reprehensible for writers to want to portray the extraordinary.

Modifié par Alraiis, 07 février 2012 - 09:06 .