134 réponses à ce sujet

[Nizzemancer]

I blame "Rainman".

[tch2296]

Alraiis wrote...

I confess to know little about the finer details of autism, but if it is a spectrum, and if cases similar to David Archer's are at one end of it, then I see no problem with creating a single, specific character who is that way.

For example: I am legally blind. My vision is 20/400 after correction; nothing too  serious. The common Hollywood "blind person," on the other hand, is always totally blind and invariably has super-hearing verging on sonar and/or a similarly incredible sense of smell. That isn't an unrealistic portrayal—people with those capabilities are out there. It's just a representation of a small piece of the broad spectrum of visual disorders.

Writers find the extreme ends of the spectrum interesting because it's something many people haven't encountered.  Portraying characters that way may be seen as a lazy tactic (it usually  is), and it may have the unfortunate side effect of people creating false expectations of what a word like "autistic" or "blind" entails. I can see how this is especially problematic in this case, because the extreme depictions of autism create some potentially negative associations. Still, I don't think it's reprehensible for writers to want to portray the extraordinary.

Very well said - writers are always looking for the extreme ends of the spectrum because it's more interesting and adds more to the storyline. It wouldn't be as interesting if David had a high-functioning form of autism - actually it would be pretty stupid!

Oftentimes this sort of thing attracts controversy but that doesn't mean that it doesn't add to the game. Some people are always going to be offended.

[WizenSlinky0]

Alraiis wrote...

I confess to know little about the finer details of autism, but if it is a spectrum, and if cases similar to David Archer's are at one end of it, then I see no problem with creating a single, specific character who is that way.

For example: I am legally blind. My vision is 20/400 after correction; nothing too  serious. The common Hollywood "blind person," on the other hand, is always totally blind and invariably has super-hearing verging on sonar and/or a similarly incredible sense of smell. That isn't an unrealistic portrayal—people with those capabilities are out there. It's just a representation of a small piece of the broad spectrum of visual disorders.

Writers find the extreme ends of the spectrum interesting because it's something many people haven't encountered.  Portraying characters that way may be seen as a lazy tactic (it usually  is), and it may have the unfortunate side effect of people creating false expectations of what a word like "autistic" or "blind" entails. I can see how this is especially problematic in this case, because the extreme depictions of autism create some potentially negative associations. Still, I don't think it's reprehensible for writers to want to portray the extraordinary.

This.

Unless the character is showing a form of it that would not occur as we currently understand it, I cannot bring myself to fault them. Overall I'd say Bioware has done a decent job of having "characters that happen to have a condition" rather than "a condition that happens to have a character attached".

Overlord wasn't meant to make David seem like any sort of freak but to show how he was exploited for who he is, much like any of us could be exploited. Sure, it happened to be David in this case because he had a unique ability. But the galaxy is not short on people being exploited.

Gillian was also handled very well. At least from my perspective. She seemed real and balanced. I genuiniely enjoyed her character and was rather disappointed to have her toothbrushed in Deception.

[izmirtheastarach]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

This.

Unless the character is showing a form of it that would not occur as we currently understand it, I cannot bring myself to fault them. Overall I'd say Bioware has done a decent job of having "characters that happen to have a condition" rather than "a condition that happens to have a character attached".

Overlord wasn't meant to make David seem like any sort of freak but to show how he was exploited for who he is, much like any of us could be exploited. Sure, it happened to be David in this case because he had a unique ability. But the galaxy is not short on people being exploited.

Gillian was also handled very well. At least from my perspective. She seemed real and balanced. I genuiniely enjoyed her character and was rather disappointed to have her toothbrushed in Deception.

Very well put.

[DxWill10]

Nizzemancer wrote...

I blame "Rainman".

"I'm gonna let ya' in on a little secret, Ray. K-Mart sucks."

Modifié par DxWill10, 07 février 2012 - 09:28 .

[Ender1221]

I apologize for in advance for the fact that I did not read through all 4 pages of this thread. OP, I appreciate your post and I'm glad you are able to function as well as you are. My daughter was diagnosed with Austism Spectrum Disorder; however, she is nowhere near as functional as you are. My daughter didn't say a word until the age of 5 and now, though she does talk, it is mainly mimicry and, only very rarely, does she say anything to interact with us or her brothers. The few times she interacts with us directly, it is usually in the form of a spongebob quote (as that is her obsession) or in very basic structure (I.E. Madison eat, Madison thirsty, Madison Daddy bye-bye, etc). I cannot have a conversation with my daughter.

I cannot comment on the books, as I haven't read them; however, I will say that Overlord was a fairly accurate portrayal of an Autistic Savant. David's story touched me and I am not ashamed to admit that I wept the first time I played Overlord. As such, I don't usually play it anymore. Games are supposed to be an escape from, not an affirmation of, reality. I very much respect you, OP, and I urge you to continue to fight for world wide awareness of Autism; however, I also urge you to cut David Archer a break. Not everyone is as lucky as you and I'm glad Bioware at least made people aware of Autism, even if it didn't relate to your specific circumstances.

[syllogi]

Mike Shepard wrote...

Fidget6 wrote...

I have high functioning autism as well. I haven't played the Overlord DLC, but from what you describe I don't think they were trying to say he could talk to machines because he was an autistic freak, people with autism often obsess over very specific subjects and because of that are usually extremely gifted in some area. I'm guessing the geth was the area they chose for that character? As for why autistic characters are shown to be extremely awkward in media, it's the same reason gay characters are always shown to be victimized. For dramatic purposes to make the character and story more interesting.

the whole idea I think is that the Geth language is based on mathematics and David, like many with autism, is a mathematical prodigy. He is seen listing off square roots of odd numbers ("the square root of 906.01 is 30.1..."). David is portrayed as being able to speak to the Geth because he can reproduce the geth language which is again as far as I can tell based on mathematics.

See, this is what I was talking about earlier...no, mathematical prodigy is not something many people with autism share.  Only 10 percent of those with autism could be considered autistic savants, and while mathematical ability is one of the common forms, it's not the only one.  Source

I know people tend to see any criticism as complaining instead of legitimate feedback, but I just want people to understand that IF they have to keep using a real condition like autism as a plot device, doing research and giving the audience some knowledge of the subject would be appreciated.  

[PXXL]

 To quote the video you posted...

"By all means, make fun of us, mock us, treat us as you would any other human being. It is really all we want"

I think you're problem lies here

Gretnablue wrote...

 I found this to be very offensive stereotype in a game which in which they try to
make realistic and unique characters.
 

and here 

Gretnablue wrote... 

I especially found the line, “His Autistic mind can interpret the geth language
at its most basic form and mimic their phonetics”[/i] cringe worthy as I found
this very insulting and seems to imply that people with conditions in the autistic
spectrum are somehow freaks that can talk to machines because they are special.

 

I have autism in the family FYI

Modifié par PXXL, 07 février 2012 - 10:11 .

[PicdiCr80]

I didn't read the entire thread, but I did read the first page, but what i have to say is that I sort of agree with you, OP, as i had severe OCD for years and the way it gets treated by many people in real life and in the media is appalling and nothing like how it is in real life, at all. The stereotypes seriously make it look like you just tap your fingers 4 times every time you hear a bell or something stupid, never the proper mental state and what not of it, so I can sympathise with you, OP. 

What I can say to console you though is just remember Bioware didn't mean to offend you like many who laugh about such conditions do, they simply tried to give a reason for their characters behaviour, who hell, is ridicuously intelligent, which I guess can be taken as a compliment. But what I'd do is just educate people on your condition if they seem to be ignorant to it and I'm sure you'll find it easier to cope with people's ignorance after a while if you take some time to help them understand. And I'm also sure Bioware will be doing more research into their characters' afflictions if these correction threads keep coming up.

[Mike Shepard]

syllogi wrote...

Mike Shepard wrote...

Fidget6 wrote...

I have high functioning autism as well. I haven't played the Overlord DLC, but from what you describe I don't think they were trying to say he could talk to machines because he was an autistic freak, people with autism often obsess over very specific subjects and because of that are usually extremely gifted in some area. I'm guessing the geth was the area they chose for that character? As for why autistic characters are shown to be extremely awkward in media, it's the same reason gay characters are always shown to be victimized. For dramatic purposes to make the character and story more interesting.

the whole idea I think is that the Geth language is based on mathematics and David, like many with autism, is a mathematical prodigy. He is seen listing off square roots of odd numbers ("the square root of 906.01 is 30.1..."). David is portrayed as being able to speak to the Geth because he can reproduce the geth language which is again as far as I can tell based on mathematics.

See, this is what I was talking about earlier...no, mathematical prodigy is not something many people with autism share.  Only 10 percent of those with autism could be considered autistic savants, and while mathematical ability is one of the common forms, it's not the only one.  Source

I know people tend to see any criticism as complaining instead of legitimate feedback, but I just want people to understand that IF they have to keep using a real condition like autism as a plot device, doing research and giving the audience some knowledge of the subject would be appreciated.  

I meant no offense. apologies.

[mjh417]

OP I want you to know that I am also a person with Asperger Sydrome (truthfully) and I reading the first part of your post brought to mind a ton of similar experiences in my own life of feeling different and alone and frustrated in my ability to communicate with other on terms they relate to and vice versa. Its something that runs in my family I guess because my grandfather has it as well but his seems to be far more intensive and interfering in his social life. It can be hard for me to be around him sometimes because I get afraid that people will start reacting to me more and more like the way they react to him, which is often very dismissively.

Anyway, on to ME and Overlord

I wasn't sure how I really felt about Overlord initially. I enjoyed the DLC, but the story with Archer did rub me the wrong way. After reading your post I think I can admit that I agree with much you are saying. I dont find it "offensive" because I dont belive in that word exactly. My feeling are my own, and I dont feel a need to, let alone like to mix up my personal feelings with others and project them onto social ideas and vice versa in a negative way. It just doesn't work for me. What bothers me about David Archer is that the writers decided to be all melodramatic in their writing of him and what his brother did to him as some cheap tactic to sucker emotional people into caring for him through pity, which is a shame. People with Autism should not be pitied anymore than any other kind of people. Everyone if different and most people do sadly face persecution at some point for their differences but differences are not something to be sorry about or for people to pity, even when such persons are abused for it. I wish the writers thought about this as they seem to for other types of diversity, and made David not a pity party character, its poor taste.

[Ender1221]

mjh417 wrote...

OP I want you to know that I am also a person with Asperger Sydrome (truthfully) and I reading the first part of your post brought to mind a ton of similar experiences in my own life of feeling different and alone and frustrated in my ability to communicate with other on terms they relate to and vice versa. Its something that runs in my family I guess because my grandfather has it as well but his seems to be far more intensive and interfering in his social life. It can be hard for me to be around him sometimes because I get afraid that people will start reacting to me more and more like the way they react to him, which is often very dismissively.

Anyway, on to ME and Overlord

I wasn't sure how I really felt about Overlord initially. I enjoyed the DLC, but the story with Archer did rub me the wrong way. After reading your post I think I can admit that I agree with much you are saying. I dont find it "offensive" because I dont belive in that word exactly. My feeling are my own, and I dont feel a need to, let alone like to mix up my personal feelings with others and project them onto social ideas and vice versa in a negative way. It just doesn't work for me. What bothers me about David Archer is that the writers decided to be all melodramatic in their writing of him and what his brother did to him as some cheap tactic to sucker emotional people into caring for him through pity, which is a shame. People with Autism should not be pitied anymore than any other kind of people. Everyone if different and most people do sadly face persecution at some point for their differences but differences are not something to be sorry about or for people to pity, even when such persons are abused for it. I wish the writers thought about this as they seem to for other types of diversity, and made David not a pity party character, its poor taste.

Great points.  I, personally, felt sorry for David because of the traumatic ways his brother manipulated him.  It had nothing to do with his autism.  I don't think Bioware was intending to paint him as a person who was traumatized by Autism, but as a person, who happens to have Autism, being traumatized and taken advantage of by the one person who should have loved and protected him.

[Adragalus]

Dasher1010 wrote...

I think that Gillian will make an appearance in ME3. Also, Liara comes across like an aspie to me. Liara is also nothing like David.

As of Deception, Gillian is dead :/

[Adragalus]

Fidget6 wrote...

I have high functioning autism as well. I haven't played the Overlord DLC, but from what you describe I don't think they were trying to say he could talk to machines because he was an autistic freak, people with autism often obsess over very specific subjects and because of that are usually extremely gifted in some area. I'm guessing the geth was the area they chose for that character? As for why autistic characters are shown to be extremely awkward in media, it's the same reason gay characters are always shown to be victimized. For dramatic purposes to make the character and story more interesting.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savant_syndrome As I understand it, his ability to communicate was tied to a savant-like gift with mathematics, and not any particular knowledge of the Geth themselves.

[Kidd]

I have Asperger's syndrome myself, and I quite liked both David and Gillian. Especially considering they were in the same series and were so different.

On the matter of David himself, I never saw the pity part of it as relevant to his autism. His ability to understand patterns which ultimately lead him to be able to talk to geth came from him being an autistic savant, yes. But past that, it was all about what happens when you bring family members into extremely pragmatic situations.

My sister is a high level chemist who's working in medicine, and I'm sure if my Asperger's could somehow help her then I wouldn't really think twice about helping. Not only is it for a good cause - I love my sister, right? That's why it Overlord struck me so heavily, the older sibling took advantage of family ties to further his own professional life in the name of greater good. He didn't use an autistic person, he used his own brother.

That you later even got the choice to do what you will with David was a great thing to me. The game allowed you to do something "bad" to him, completely going against the standard trope of autistic people being holy beings you mustn't ever touch. He was treated like any other person in the narrative, and that's great.

As for Gillian, her autism is very different from David's. Mostly in that she's just autistic, she gets no mathematical super powers from it. I especially loved the part where Drew mentioned how her eating habits were different from neurotypical people. It's the small things that really sell the character and make them feel real. What happened to her in Deception is, of course, as everything in that book... let's not go there.

Personally I've also always felt Liara exhibit strong Asperger tendencies. She's more than slightly similar to me and several of my aspie friends, after all =)

[Wulfram]

Adragalus wrote...

As of Deception, Gillian is dead :/

Well, a mysterious 18 year old of the same name is dead, but it's fairly obvious that it can't actually be the same person.

[PicdiCr80]

Just want to point out I agree with many people here that Liara may have mild autism and tbh that does nothing but add to the character, but any-whoo.

I've now read the entire thread and see loads of good points and would actually say that if we disregard how exaggerated David was, seeing as the Mass Effect writers seemed to realise not all Autistic people are like David [Gillian and Liara aren't] It's not that bad, considering they've used him as a minority. Plus, to reply to an earlier post, I don't think people pitied David because of his Autism [I didn't] it was the fact someone who needed love and support from his family, was being exploited by said family and shown NO love or support instead, and poor David kept doing so to help out his brother, showing he still felt love for his family anyway, which goes against the stereotypes to be honest, even if stereotypes are still present in the character.

And can we stop using Deception as something to draw from? I'm not trying to offend anyone doing so, I'm juts saying it's...it's not even Mass Effect, it's just...strange. And Gillian would of actually shown a good side to how Bioware see the differences on the autistic spectrum if it wasn't for Deception and the...whatever it was that happened.

[Adragalus]

Wulfram wrote...

Adragalus wrote...

As of Deception, Gillian is dead :/

Well, a mysterious 18 year old of the same name is dead, but it's fairly obvious that it can't actually be the same person.

Patchthegoddamnbookpatchthegoddamnbookpatchthegoddamnbook<_<

Modifié par Adragalus, 07 février 2012 - 11:12 .

[OperativeX]

Yeah bullies $uck. I took up muay thai kickboxing... problem solved. As for the autism, you need to toughen up. You should have spoken up to that teacher and showed some anger there and then. At least the whole class would have seen u DO have emotions and you're not to be messed with. You are clearly in control of your thoughts i can see.

One of my best friends had a brother who was very autistic. All he would do all day was play hopping on and off of a curb all day long whilst muttering quietly to himself. But for some reason he was able to snap out of it and tell you the make, model and year a car was built even if it was 100 yards away.

Everybody has certain skills. Autistic people usually have very precise skills which usually put the rest of us to shame. David Archer was able to understand computer talk in its most basic form - i.e. he was able to understand Binary as if it were words and sentences. So u have misinterpreted what Bioware was portraying.

[DJBare]

What I saw was a "person" strapped to that equipment not a condition, I was diagnosed with asperger two years ago, I'm now 52 and still trying to come to terms with it, I don't have a normal life, but I do have a life, reading this thread was quite hard but glad to see I'm not as alone as I thought I was.

[Ken_Karnage]

This is the most ignorant thread I have ever read...

[Gabey5]

there is zero chance of her being in me3

spoilers




with being dead and all

[Cerebral Prophet]

I have Aspergers myself but I liked the way David was portrayed. Yeah, mabye it was a little stereotypicle, but there are many people out there who actually are in worse condition than he is in, as far as disabilities go. I have a friend at school whose twelve year old little brother can't even speak due to autism. Most people can't tell that I have Aspergers unless I tell them, and I'm generally pretty sociable, but sometimes I misunderstand what people are intending to say. I agree that alot of people with autism aren't much different than anybody else though.

[AgitatedLemon]

David was autistic, but wasn't he also unstable?