18 réponses à ce sujet

[Carmen_Willow]

DG:

In a recent interview you said that Nathaniel Howe was the eldest son.(I almost fainted.) I was always under the impression that Thomas was the eldest and the heir while Nate was fostered in order to learn his profession.  He mentions something about returning home to be the Captain of his father's guard at one point.  I figured this was his goal. 

You know how much Nathaniel means to his rather exclusive fan club so I am asking for a "Word of God" ruling on this portion of the canon.  Please, please tell us:  "Is Nathaniel truly the eldest son?"  (If so, I have a rewrite to do, but hey that's fanfic for ya!)

Inquiring and devote Nate maniacs desire to know.  Please advise.

Carmen

[artsangel]

David doesn't really visit the forums much any more due to the scary fandom. If he said Nathaniel is the oldest in the interview, that seems pretty definitive to me.

[rak72]

Maybe if you tweet him he'll answer

[Abispa]

If his siblings are dead and only his sister is left, that makes him the eldest son. Of course, I'm not a Howe fanatic (nothing wrong with that if YOU are), so I may have missed some information. I was under the impression that only he and his sister remain of his family.

[Asch Lavigne]

Wanted a response in the human noble origin to tell Arl Howe you'd rather have Nathaniel than Thomas when it was brought up.

[Priisus]

Asch Lavigne wrote...

Wanted a response in the human noble origin to tell Arl Howe you'd rather have Nathaniel than Thomas when it was brought up.

LOL that will be awkward since you're like... his boss 

To OP: I recall that the HN Warden can tell Arl Howe that Thomas is a bit too young for her so I'm guessing that Nathaniel has always been the older son.

[Wulfram]

Considering the HN Warden is a few years older than Thomas, I always assumed Nathaniel had to be older.

Succession in Fereldan doesn't necessarily go to the oldest child, I think. Dairren says that HN is expected to succeed to the Teyrnir, and they're the younger child

Modifié par Wulfram, 08 février 2012 - 11:17 .

[CuriousArtemis]

I think in the interview DG indicates that he really isn't sure, so he just decides or guesses at that moment that Nate is the eldest. (But I don't want to put words or thoughts in his mouth/head.) Yeah, you can try tweeting him. He responds to tweets.

[Carmen_Willow]

motomotogirl wrote...

I think in the interview DG indicates that he really isn't sure, so he just decides or guesses at that moment that Nate is the eldest. (But I don't want to put words or thoughts in his mouth/head.) Yeah, you can try tweeting him. He responds to tweets.

It's this--I can deal with Nate being the oldest.  Heck that makes for even better drama.  Imagine being the heir to the Arldom and having all taken away by the group that drafts you into their order.  It's just that David wasn't sure in the interview, which leaves fan fic writers like me in canon limbo.

[Carmen_Willow]

Abispa wrote...

If his siblings are dead and only his sister is left, that makes him the eldest son. Of course, I'm not a Howe fanatic (nothing wrong with that if YOU are), so I may have missed some information. I was under the impression that only he and his sister remain of his family.

Yeah, but birth order has a lot to do with how you behave.  It's one thing to succeed because your elder brother died and another to succeed because you are the heir and the eldest when you are imagining someone's character.  Birth order isn't everything, but it does affect your outlook on life.

[Thiefy]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Abispa wrote...

If his siblings are dead and only his sister is left, that makes him the eldest son. Of course, I'm not a Howe fanatic (nothing wrong with that if YOU are), so I may have missed some information. I was under the impression that only he and his sister remain of his family.

Yeah, but birth order has a lot to do with how you behave.  It's one thing to succeed because your elder brother died and another to succeed because you are the heir and the eldest when you are imagining someone's character.  Birth order isn't everything, but it does affect your outlook on life.

that doesn't make sense because fereldan isn't real. the same logic we have here doesn't always work the same way there, and i'm kind of glad actually.

to use an example that comes up here frequently, there are a lot of people that sadly still see homosexual and weird or evil, and more or less "not normal", whereas in fereldan (and thedas in general) homosexuality isn't seen as something "not normal" just more of a quirk. A preference, like being attracted to a nice chest/backside/set of abs/long legs/other body part. Pretty sure Mr Gaider said that himself.

if i am not mistaken, i am pretty sure there was either a codex or npc that said something about succession not being based solely on birth order. i dont have an example unfortunately.

[Carmen_Willow]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Abispa wrote...

If his siblings are dead and only his sister is left, that makes him the eldest son. Of course, I'm not a Howe fanatic (nothing wrong with that if YOU are), so I may have missed some information. I was under the impression that only he and his sister remain of his family.

Yeah, but birth order has a lot to do with how you behave.  It's one thing to succeed because your elder brother died and another to succeed because you are the heir and the eldest when you are imagining someone's character.  Birth order isn't everything, but it does affect your outlook on life.

that doesn't make sense because fereldan isn't real. the same logic we have here doesn't always work the same way there, and i'm kind of glad actually.

to use an example that comes up here frequently, there are a lot of people that sadly still see homosexual and weird or evil, and more or less "not normal", whereas in fereldan (and thedas in general) homosexuality isn't seen as something "not normal" just more of a quirk. A preference, like being attracted to a nice chest/backside/set of abs/long legs/other body part. Pretty sure Mr Gaider said that himself.

if i am not mistaken, i am pretty sure there was either a codex or npc that said something about succession not being based solely on birth order. i dont have an example unfortunately.

I take your point, but it still doesn't make sense.  Nathaniel doesn't give any indication in his dialogue that he expects to inherit the arldom. Thomas is described as being at the very least an extremely heavy drinker....so why would the arl make his heavy drinking younger son the heir while disinheriting his serious minded, kick butt, badass assassin eldest son? And, the son who adored him?  And why doesn't Nathaniel attempt to raise an army and take back his land?  Ferelden's in pieces, his father and brother are dead, he believes his sister is dead, so why doesn't he try to convince the people who live in the arldom that they would be better off with him than with a Grey Warden for an arl?  Given the plot against the Grey Warden, there certainly wasn't a lack of nobles who would have considered supporting him.  Instead he attempts a burglary and thinks about assassinating the warden.  It just doesn't make sense to me.

[Carmen_Willow]

FYI: Took everyone's advice. DG responded on Twitter. Said if it ever comes up, Nathaniel is definitely the eldest son. God has spoken and this is Canon. Small rewrite necessary but as I said, it makes for better drama.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I had always figured he was the oldest from all his dialogue in Awakening.

[Heidenreich]

Because he doesn't want the arling. He loaths his father and mother, dislikes his brother. I'm pretty sure his sister was the only one he liked. Thus he was sent away to squire rather then being trained to become the next Arl.

He comes back to reclaim some things and kill the warden for effectively ending his family. He doesn't actually want the place.

Modifié par Heidenreich, 23 février 2012 - 05:20 .

[Carmen_Willow]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I had always figured he was the oldest from all his dialogue in Awakening.

I think my misperception came from the dialogue in Origins when Howe was trying to marry Thomas off to my warden.  You'd want your heir to marry "up" by marrying the Teyrn's daughter.  My mistake was in thinking that this meant Thomas was the oldest.

[Carmen_Willow]

Heidenreich wrote...

Because he doesn't want the arling. He loaths his father and mother, dislikes his brother. I'm pretty sure his sister was the only one he liked. Thus he was sent away to squire rather then being trained to become the next Arl.

He comes back to reclaim some things and kill the warden for effectively ending his family. He doesn't actually want the place.

Yes, I know how it was written in Awakenings, but it never made sense to me. IMHO, Nathaniel would want the Arldom, not for himself but for his duty--to see to the people and the land.

Despite the fact that younger children could inherit the title  (primogeniture was not settled in England for quite some time), my guess is that the eldest child usually did inherit.  Nathaniel as the oldest would have had that pounded into his head. He is nothing if not serious and duty bound (which should have been my clue that he was the oldest child). Look at how seriously he takes being a Warden. 

Love it or hate it, he would have felt honor bound to reclaim his family's place in the world. Nathaniel is a good man, but he is Rendon Howe's blood. And besides, what a story that would have made!

Eldest sons (who, in England, were the heirs) were fostered out all the time to learn the art of war from others. It was considered important to build alliances with the men who would serve as his battle commanders or would be his allies in the future, and this was one way to do it. Nathaniel would not have wanted to become Arl, but he would have done his duty--had not fate intervened. (At least in my DA universe.) This was another reason why I thought he was the younger son and had no expectation of inheriting.  But as I said, it makes for better drama...I'm happy.

It never made sense to me that the Warden Commander was given the rights and duties of the Arling. Arls have to swear homage and fealty most likely to the Teyrn and fealty to the King. They provide the military might of the country in a feudal society, and there could definitely be times when the duty they owed to the Teyrn and King would directly conflict with the duty they owe to their Order. I know Alistair did it in a fit of generosity (and perhaps vengance), but politically and militarily it was not a very astue decision. He should have known better.

Also, it never made sense that a Warden Mage could be an "Arl."  I am surprised that the Templars didn't ride to the Vigil in in force to put an end to that notion. It made no sense and violated DA Canon big time. We are told in Origins that Conor can never be the Arl because he is a mage, and then in Awakening, I, female mage, am the Arlessa. Shades of Tevinter! With the Right of High Justice, no less!  I'm surprised they didn't burn me for a witch out in the bailey!

[Edited to add and correct content.]

Modifié par Carmen_Willow, 26 février 2012 - 02:40 .

[Silfren]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

Because he doesn't want the arling. He loaths his father and mother, dislikes his brother. I'm pretty sure his sister was the only one he liked. Thus he was sent away to squire rather then being trained to become the next Arl.

He comes back to reclaim some things and kill the warden for effectively ending his family. He doesn't actually want the place.

Yes, I know how it was written in Awakenings, but it never made sense to me. IMHO, Nathaniel would want the Arldom, not for himself but for his duty--to see to the people and the land.

Despite the fact that younger children could inherit the title  (primogeniture was not settled in England for quite some time), my guess is that the eldest child usually did inherit.  Nathaniel as the oldest would have had that pounded into his head. He is nothing if not serious and duty bound (which should have been my clue that he was the oldest child). Look at how seriously he takes being a Warden. 

Love it or hate it, he would have felt honor bound to reclaim his family's place in the world. Nathaniel is a good man, but he is Rendon Howe's blood. And besides, what a story that would have made!

Eldest sons (who, in England, were the heirs) were fostered out all the time to learn the art of war from others. It was considered important to build alliances with the men who would serve as his battle commanders or would be his allies in the future, and this was one way to do it. Nathaniel would not have wanted to become Arl, but he would have done his duty--had not fate intervened. (At least in my DA universe.) This was another reason why I thought he was the younger son and had no expectation of inheriting.  But as I said, it makes for better drama...I'm happy.

It never made sense to me that the Warden Commander was given the rights and duties of the Arling. Arls have to swear homage and fealty most likely to the Teyrn and fealty to the King. They provide the military might of the country in a feudal society, and there could definitely be times when the duty they owed to the Teyrn and King would directly conflict with the duty they owe to their Order. I know Alistair did it in a fit of generosity (and perhaps vengance), but politically and militarily it was not a very astue decision. He should have known better.

Also, it never made sense that a Warden Mage could be an "Arl."  I am surprised that the Templars didn't ride to the Vigil in in force to put an end to that notion. It made no sense and violated DA Canon big time. We are told in Origins that Conor can never be the Arl because he is a mage, and then in Awakening, I, female mage, am the Arlessa. Shades of Tevinter! With the Right of High Justice, no less!  I'm surprised they didn't burn me for a witch out in the bailey!

[Edited to add and correct content.]

It's really not THAT odd for a mage warden to become the Arlessa of Amaranthine.  Not only does she have a great deal of political clout and popular acclaim due to being the Hero of Ferelden, but she was placed in Amaranthine by the monarch.  The Chantry and its templars may be wary of trying to gainsay the situation since the the Mage Warden has the favor of the King, the nobility, and the general populace, not to mention may be rumored to have connections with the Antivan Crows and even the Qunari--it's far from implausible.  Especially since the mage has the immunity of being a Grey Warden.  Remember, Grey Wardens aren't supposed to hold titles and wield political power any more than mages are.  Story-wise it's a unique situation, but it doesn't have to violate canon; there's no reason why it can't be part of the story based on the unusual circumstances facing Ferelden at the time: Amaranthine is devoid of a ruler, and while Blight-ending Heroes don't come along every day, because they usually die in the process of becoming Heroes...and this particular Hero of Ferelden also put an end to the civil war and placed a new king on the throne, to boot. 

Plus, Amaranthine was given to the Wardens.  It could be argued that due to Grey Warden immunity from  Chantry oversight, that Amaranthine is officially outside the scope of Chantry supervision.

As long as the canon acknowledges the situation, it need not violate it.  History is filled with protocol-defying events.

Modifié par Silfren, 26 février 2012 - 06:04 .

[Carmen_Willow]

Silfren wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

Because he doesn't want the arling....

Yes, I know how it was written in Awakenings, but it never made sense to me....

It's really not THAT odd for a mage warden to become the Arlessa of Amaranthine.  Not only does she have a great deal of political clout and popular acclaim due to being the Hero of Ferelden, but she was placed in Amaranthine by the monarch.  The Chantry and its templars may be wary of trying to gainsay the situation since the the Mage Warden has the favor of the King, the nobility, and the general populace, not to mention may be rumored to have connections with the Antivan Crows and even the Qunari--it's far from implausible.  Especially since the mage has the immunity of being a Grey Warden.  Remember, Grey Wardens aren't supposed to hold titles and wield political power any more than mages are.  Story-wise it's a unique situation, but it doesn't have to violate canon; there's no reason why it can't be part of the story based on the unusual circumstances facing Ferelden at the time: Amaranthine is devoid of a ruler, and while Blight-ending Heroes don't come along every day, because they usually die in the process of becoming Heroes...and this particular Hero of Ferelden also put an end to the civil war and placed a new king on the throne, to boot. 

Plus, Amaranthine was given to the Wardens.  It could be argued that due to Grey Warden immunity from  Chantry oversight, that Amaranthine is officially outside the scope of Chantry supervision.

As long as the canon acknowledges the situation, it need not violate it.  History is filled with protocol-defying events.

I don't play my Warden as the Warden Commander of the Vigil. I think the Orlesian Warden is a better fit. 

I can see how it would work for the Hero of Ferelden to hold the Arling on a temporary basis, I understand about the political clout, etc.; however, I do not see it as something that would work on a permanent basis because of the conflicts inherent in serving both the Order and attempting to be the Teyrn's "man" as his/her homage and fealty oaths would require. It is an unstable situation that sooner or later will get the Wardens into trouble with Ferelden once more or will be ended through some sort of arrangement that separates the Vigil from the fief so that the Arldom can have an Arl entirely devoted to his duties.
 
I wish Alistair had just given the Grey Wardens gold or men or material to help rebuild their old fortress at the Peak. Why waste a perfectly good old ruin?

As to the Chantry, nothing is outside their oversight, at least not until the rebellion. And Wardens don't have complete immunity from Chantry Law....look how they went after Anders. The Chantry looks the other way due to the political reality of the necessity for Wardens, but they haven't completely abrogated their right to interfere in Warden business. The Templars would not hesitate to put down a Warden abomination or at least try to do so.