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How many guns do you think ME3 will have? AKA Why mass effect 3 will be a stinker


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#176
TheBlackBaron

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Sometimes I wonder if people really think Mass Effect is supposed to be like Dragon Age or Skyrim, just with your +3 Sword of Ogre Slaying replaced by a +3 Shotgun of Krogan Slaying that you found in a dungeon by defeating a boss on a tip from a townsperson in the local space bar.

As opposed to, you know, the semi-hard SF game that at least aspires to have some realism that it actually is.

EDIT: Honestly, OP, every weapon you find is NOT supposed to be more powerful than the last. We wouldn't have epic arguments on the forums about whether the Mattock or Revenant is better, or which shotgun is best, which pistol is best, etc. This is the same principle behind, say, a high speed-low base damage vs low speed-high base damage weapon in DA.

The fact that you can't grasp that baffles me. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 08 février 2012 - 08:48 .


#177
Admoniter

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John Locke N7 wrote...
I was able (and still am) to have everything that ME1 function. not perfectly, but i wouldnt say a "far cry from functional".

what scares me about ME3 is that in ME2, they made bad decisions to try to get it to be functional. HORRIBLE decisions.
and i know you agree with me that ME2 isnt functional

were i think we differ (besides the obvious 'i like mass effect 1 alot') is that i think the direction ME1 was taking is the right DIRECTION. and that ME2s direction came out of NOWARE.

unless you think that also idk....

I'd actually say ME2 is functional it just went about it the wrong way achieving it. ME2s motto seemed to be if it wasn't perfect cut it rather than improve it, that is what I have a problem with. However, the shooting portions of ME2 are superior, and honestly they should be because that seems to be where the most focus went.

And here was my problem (with ME1) among the unpolished gameplay, the clunky inventory that I'm sure even you can agree needed much more time in the oven was the big one the shooter portions being reigned in and forced to fit into a mold that they weren't designed for. Weapon variety being IMO something that suffered the most. You had four types of weapons no matter which you chose, nor matter what level they were they functioned the exact same within their class. Sure within a tier there were options but they rarely amounted to anything automatic AR 1 might do 10 more points of damage compared to AR 2 which had maybe 5 more shots before overheating. But at the end of the day your tactics with weapons depended on the mods not on the weapons themselves. You could min/max for the most benefit ofcourse but really in the end I would hardly say it made a noticable difference. And to round it all out there was always a BIS weapon that was leagues above everything else and were not that difficult to aquire. The only exception to this being the Geth Pules Rifle X which offered superior accuracy at the expense of damage and shots before overheat. But then again it had no mod slots and as such was easily outshined by the HWMA.

You may not care that much about weapon balance or functional variety, but I do immensly. Did ME2 still have this problem... sure the avenger was useless, the mattock was OP, the shuriken was useless, etc. But there was always some functional variety to most of the weapons and for the most part you could choose most weapons and not be gibbing yourself in the process.. As far as your ARs went you had about three full autos, one semi auto, one burst fire with capacity for full auto at a significant accuracy cost and a high capacity full auto. You never saw this kind of variety within the base weapons for ME1, never and that was a problem. I will take 10 weapons that each function differently from one another over 200 weapons that are just reskins and fucntion the exact same with a minor star change, any day. And thankfully for me atleast ME3 looks like it has taken a step in the right direction when it comes to weapon variety.

#178
incinerator950

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I've accepted ME since the first one as a Third Person Shooter with RPG qualities.

#179
John Locke N7

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AlanC9 wrote...

Yeah, we get it, Locke. You think RPG = lots of equipment.

that wasnt really my point. sure i like tons of equipment and loot. (like doesnt even FRIGGIN DESCRIBE IT!!!!)

and the point isnt that mass effect had lots of loot and ME2 had NONE.

this has to do (shockingly enough) with ME3. it has to do with contrast between the 2.

102 assault rifles vs 3? i think this is a good contrast to discuss mass effect 3 with

#180
daftPirate

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http://social.biowar...3/index/9028411

Unfortunately, this is the only picture I can find, with the Mattock V, but this thread also includes the mods and their effects. I think it paints a pretty good picture.

Also there's a lot of truth to Admoniter:

I'd actually say ME2 is functional it just went about it the wrong way achieving it. ME2s motto seemed to be if it wasn't perfect cut it rather than improve it


Bioware had a justification for this (i.e. time, money, tried and it didn't work) I don't know, but I don't hold it against them either way. Not gonna lie, I feel a bit naive for saying it, but I feel like ME3 has all the bases covered from ME1 to ME2. Maybe just my bases, though.

#181
TheBlackBaron

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John Locke N7 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Yeah, we get it, Locke. You think RPG = lots of equipment.

that wasnt really my point. sure i like tons of equipment and loot. (like doesnt even FRIGGIN DESCRIBE IT!!!!)

and the point isnt that mass effect had lots of loot and ME2 had NONE.

this has to do (shockingly enough) with ME3. it has to do with contrast between the 2.

102 assault rifles vs 3? i think this is a good contrast to discuss mass effect 3 with


ME1 had 102 versions of the same assault rifle. 

ME2 had 6 different assault rifles, with several incremental upgrades that could be purchased (I think it was 8 total, the S/X upgrades and the a-f damage upgrades). If you're counting ME1's reskins and tiers as different guns, then those all count as different rifles as well. That's 48, and offers a hell of a lot more variety than ME1 ever did. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 08 février 2012 - 08:52 .


#182
AlanC9

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John Locke N7 wrote...

when skyrim was still unreleased i read an article about a girl who played skyrim early.

she found some hide armor and put it on and when she dint become naked she got really confused. she though she should have become naked!

is she stupid? ye. but Todd FRIGGIN Howard told her it was HIS fault. a developers mistake in not having the proper concept come across to the player.

i guess just i just compared my self to a complete moron........ but you unstand what i ment. i hope


I understand. I just don't agree.

I don't like a lot of things about the way Bethesda designs games, and the way they've been idiot-proofing them lately is one of the worst. I suppose they need to, though, since IIRC over 2/3 of Morrowind players were too stupid to find Caius Cosades, which meant they couldn't start the main quest. (In my more hopeful moments I think that a large portion of that 2/3 must have been people who just didn't give a damn about the main quest)

#183
AlanC9

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John Locke N7 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Yeah, we get it, Locke. You think RPG = lots of equipment.

that wasnt really my point. sure i like tons of equipment and loot. (like doesnt even FRIGGIN DESCRIBE IT!!!!)

and the point isnt that mass effect had lots of loot and ME2 had NONE.

this has to do (shockingly enough) with ME3. it has to do with contrast between the 2.

102 assault rifles vs 3? i think this is a good contrast to discuss mass effect 3 with


So I figured your tastes right. Yay for me.

And ME3 will be somewhat between ME2 and ME1. Whether it's got enough crap for you to like it is the question. How much inventory crap do you need to like a game?

#184
Gibb_Shepard

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Bioware is idiot proofing their games just as much; see DA2. Surely then you dislike BW's design process just as much?

#185
John Locke N7

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Admoniter wrote...

I'd actually say ME2 is functional it just went about it the wrong way achieving it. ME2s motto seemed to be if it wasn't perfect cut it rather than improve it, that is what I have a problem with. However, the shooting portions of ME2 are superior, and honestly they should be because that seems to be where the most focus went.

And here was my problem (with ME1) among the unpolished gameplay, the clunky inventory that I'm sure even you can agree needed much more time in the oven was the big one the shooter portions being reigned in and forced to fit into a mold that they weren't designed for. Weapon variety being IMO something that suffered the most. You had four types of weapons no matter which you chose, nor matter what level they were they functioned the exact same within their class. Sure within a tier there were options but they rarely amounted to anything automatic AR 1 might do 10 more points of damage compared to AR 2 which had maybe 5 more shots before overheating. But at the end of the day your tactics with weapons depended on the mods not on the weapons themselves. You could min/max for the most benefit ofcourse but really in the end I would hardly say it made a noticable difference. And to round it all out there was always a BIS weapon that was leagues above everything else and were not that difficult to aquire. The only exception to this being the Geth Pules Rifle X which offered superior accuracy at the expense of damage and shots before overheat. But then again it had no mod slots and as such was easily outshined by the HWMA.

You may not care that much about weapon balance or functional variety, but I do immensly. Did ME2 still have this problem... sure the avenger was useless, the mattock was OP, the shuriken was useless, etc. But there was always some functional variety to most of the weapons and for the most part you could choose most weapons and not be gibbing yourself in the process.. As far as your ARs went you had about three full autos, one semi auto, one burst fire with capacity for full auto at a significant accuracy cost and a high capacity full auto. You never saw this kind of variety within the base weapons for ME1, never and that was a problem. I will take 10 weapons that each function differently from one another over 200 weapons that are just reskins and fucntion the exact same with a minor star change, any day. And thankfully for me atleast ME3 looks like it has taken a step in the right direction when it comes to weapon variety.

another biggin o.O

paragraph 1 - Id actualy say that ME2 is MORE FUNCTIONAL of a game AS A WHOLE. to me, that (barely) functioning product wasnt nearly as FUN as the (to you broken, to me, semi broken but i can make it work) product of ME1.

p1 - part 2  - sure the act of shooting a guy is better. but to me it took out bits that made the game as a whole fun. and with only the shooting for me judge for ME2, and when judgeing it as a shooter, it just doesnt live up to GoW.
(even if gears of war singleplayer isnt any fun, mutiplayer and horde mode are a RIOT).
when i feel like its just a shooter my brain just has a higher stanard for what i can enjoy when it comes to shooters.

p2 - i think the inventory worked in ME1..... after you used it for 100 plus hours =p. sure thats NOT GOOD, i would even say it inexcusable for a game to have an inventory that takes that long to get used to. and it is. its just when i play ME1 NOW the inventory isnt in my way at all. again, super bad and ultra not good.

But for me ME2 inventory just doesnt work not matter how hard i try

p2 part 2- weapons varied wasnt perfect. the differences in weapons were colors....... but as ashamed as i am to say it, my first RPG ever was Runescape..... i know i know. completely lame. but i grew into RPGs with weapons simply looking EXACTLY the same except different colors with highest teir weapons having ONE extra look (like spectre weapons) so it dint hurt me TO MUCH.

every gun looking different is OBJECTIVLY better to have. but i can handle high number of lesser looking and acting weapons. i think borderlands proves that we all can to some degree

p2 part 3 - choosing between weapons did feel a bit odd, but after so meny (mabye more than 300) hours of playing i found a pattern.

2 weapons manufacters stood out. and they were the best of the loot in the game.
Haliat Armory and Armax
Haliat weapons were always the BEST in terms of damage of ALL the weapons in the game. but all there guns had huge overheat and HORRIBLE accuracy.
Armax (i think its armax o.O) had THE BEST accuracy of all the weapons and OK overheat. just not so best damage.

sure you could slap better accuracy mods in the haliant, but you could always slap better damage mods in the Armax. or even better, damage mods in the already beafy haliant! or better accuracy and over heat in the arm..... you get it. to me choosing between those 2 manufacters was chooseing variaty. and yes Spectre weapons ruined the whole party......

p3 - and im gona keep this short
i COMPLETELY agree with balancing. nothing should be TO powerfull, and more importantly, nothing should be TO weak when its suppose to be a better than something its not stronger than.

so for me, i got a sense of getting better guns BUT THEN TO POWERFULL guns, in ME1
but in ME2 i felt like all my guns SUCKED. an RPG should atleast have one SUPER DRAGON SWORD OF AWESOME.

#186
John Locke N7

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Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Bioware is idiot proofing their games just as much; see DA2. Surely then you dislike BW's design process just as much?

honestly the gameplay in DA2 was alot of fun.......................

#187
John Locke N7

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AlanC9 wrote...

John Locke N7 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Yeah, we get it, Locke. You think RPG = lots of equipment.

that wasnt really my point. sure i like tons of equipment and loot. (like doesnt even FRIGGIN DESCRIBE IT!!!!)

and the point isnt that mass effect had lots of loot and ME2 had NONE.

this has to do (shockingly enough) with ME3. it has to do with contrast between the 2.

102 assault rifles vs 3? i think this is a good contrast to discuss mass effect 3 with


So I figured your tastes right. Yay for me.

And ME3 will be somewhat between ME2 and ME1. Whether it's got enough crap for you to like it is the question. How much inventory crap do you need to like a game?

juuuuuuuuuuuuust enough to fell like i can spend time with something, and item, and love it. get used to it. enjoy useing it. and then find something better that i can enjoy using even more.

repeating that process as much as possible, and keeping the gap between those items large enough but not to short.

#188
Wolf

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I don't think this will be a problem at all. I mean think about it, Sure there's like 61 weapons but look at it like this:

There are quite a few gun mods to be picked up, most, if not all of which change the look of your gun, so I doubt variety will be an issue..

I understand where your coming from OP (I used to share your concern), but I think you are going to like the way it's handled in ME3.

Modifié par Gaiden96, 08 février 2012 - 09:23 .


#189
John Locke N7

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TheBlackBaron wrote...

John Locke N7 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Yeah, we get it, Locke. You think RPG = lots of equipment.

that wasnt really my point. sure i like tons of equipment and loot. (like doesnt even FRIGGIN DESCRIBE IT!!!!)

and the point isnt that mass effect had lots of loot and ME2 had NONE.

this has to do (shockingly enough) with ME3. it has to do with contrast between the 2.

102 assault rifles vs 3? i think this is a good contrast to discuss mass effect 3 with


ME1 had 102 versions of the same assault rifle. 

ME2 had 6 different assault rifles, with several incremental upgrades that could be purchased (I think it was 8 total, the S/X upgrades and the a-f damage upgrades). If you're counting ME1's reskins and tiers as different guns, then those all count as different rifles as well. That's 48, and offers a hell of a lot more variety than ME1 ever did. 

theres 11 if you dont count the various teirs. but sense the only difference is that those 11 have difference GENERAL varies between overheat, damage, and accruacy.

then you would be choosing between 11 different guns that are uniqe THAT THEN IMPROVED, up to 10 times.

thats more variety than ME2s 3 guns.

Modifié par John Locke N7, 08 février 2012 - 09:25 .


#190
vader da slayer

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Epic777 wrote...

Since when did ME1 have 238 weapons?


it didn't, it just had 10 ranks of almost every weapon so people count each rank as a different gun

#191
John Locke N7

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Litany of Fury wrote...

I much preferred ME2's actual VARIETY over ME1's dozens of reskinned guns with different numbers attached.

Also, slightly off topic, but why does everyone say that ME2 removed loads of the RPG stuff? The only real difference I noticed was that you didn't have to worry about whether your squaddies were minmaxed or not, and actually seeing an improvement with every level up rather than endless streams of 1% bonuses to something...

endless steams of 1% bonuses..... i'll give that one to ya.

but ME2 felt like 4 steams of 2% bonuses.... which dint feal good at all

#192
John Locke N7

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vader da slayer wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

Since when did ME1 have 238 weapons?


it didn't, it just had 10 ranks of almost every weapon so people count each rank as a different gun

 between 4 and 10 ranks with i think 7 to 11 manufacters, to be exact

#193
John Locke N7

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Gaiden96 wrote...

I don't think this will be a problem at all. I mean think about it, Sure there's like 61 weapons but look at it like this:

There are quite a few gun mods to be picked up, most, if not all of which change the look of your gun, so I doubt variety will be an issue..

I understand where your coming from OP (I used to share your concern), but I think you are going to like the way it's handled in ME3.

im open to likeing it

that ME3 demo means ALOT to me. it WILL decide my purchase or not

#194
TheBlackBaron

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No, they were not eleven unique guns. There were eleven different minor variations on the SAME assault rifle, that then had up to 10 different even more minor variations each.

That is not variety, that is trash. Variety is weapons that are demonstratably different in both mechanics and use. ME1 had nothing of the sort. 

And no, it does not have nor does it need a SUPER DRAGON SWORD OF AWESOME. You are completely missing the point of what both ME1 and ME2 actually are if you think it does, and should stick to playing Bethsoft games.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 08 février 2012 - 09:31 .


#195
GnusmasTHX

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John Locke N7 wrote...

vader da slayer wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

Since when did ME1 have 238 weapons?


it didn't, it just had 10 ranks of almost every weapon so people count each rank as a different gun

 between 4 and 10 ranks with i think 7 to 11 manufacters, to be exact


7 to 11 re-colors.

#196
John Locke N7

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TheBlackBaron wrote...

No, they were not eleven unique guns. There were eleven different minor variations on the SAME assault rifle(true), that then had up to 10 different even more minor variations each. (true)

That is not variety(true), that is trash. (that your opinion, i enjoy this mechanic)

And no, it does not have nor does it need a SUPER DRAGON SWORD OF AWESOME. You are completely missing the point of what both ME1 and ME2 actually are if you think it does, and should stick to playing Bethsoft games.


Please explain to me the point of ME1 and ME2.

and i used to play bioware games for RPGs before i played bethsoft games....

Modifié par John Locke N7, 08 février 2012 - 09:33 .


#197
John Locke N7

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GnusmasTHX wrote...

John Locke N7 wrote...

vader da slayer wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

Since when did ME1 have 238 weapons?


it didn't, it just had 10 ranks of almost every weapon so people count each rank as a different gun

 between 4 and 10 ranks with i think 7 to 11 manufacters, to be exact


7 to 11 re-colors.

was there any differences at all besides colors? yes

#198
AlanC9

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Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Bioware is idiot proofing their games just as much; see DA2. Surely then you dislike BW's design process just as much?


I don't think Bio goes quite as far in this direction. But sure, they do too damn much of it themselves.

#199
AlanC9

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John Locke N7 wrote...
theres 11 if you dont count the various teirs.


If the tiers count then ME2 gets five tiers because each weapon class has five available upgrades.

#200
Meshaber

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ME1 had four weapons, including everything.

ME2 had twentyeight weapons, including everything. That's if you remove any weapon that is functionally identical to another with tweaked numbers. There's one such set of weapons in ME2 (Mantis/Widow), and every single gun in the first game.