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[General User]

Luc0s wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

The geth have no desire to join galactic civilisation.

u don't know that. They've never had the opportunity before. If we give them one they might

No. The geth don't need us organics. We are useless to them.

All the geth want is build a Dyson sphere and upload all their platforms into the sphere. Then they want to be left alone.

Not really.  The geth want to build their "dyson" sphere and then... no one knows, least of all the geth.

[atheelogos]

Luc0s wrote...

General User wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

The geth have no desire to join galactic civilisation.

u don't know that. They've never had the opportunity before. If we give them one they might

No. The geth don't need us organics. We are useless to them.

All the geth want is build a Dyson sphere and upload all their platforms into the sphere. Then they want to be left alone.

Not really.  The geth want to build their "dyson" sphere and then... no one knows, least of all the geth.

Maybe. All I know is that their existence is dangerous and we need to destroy them sooner or later.

even though they've done nothing to u?

[Icinix]

Luc0s wrote...

Maybe. All I know is that their existence is dangerous and we need to destroy them sooner or later.

Generally speaking, thats a very paranoid, TIM mentality to have.

[DJBare]

Luc0s wrote...

EDI makes irrational decisions and justifications that a normal A.I. wouldn't make. For example, she starts to treat Joker as a friend and she prefers to see herself as a crew member of Shepard's crew.

Have you spoken to Legion and asked to hear the recordings, by the way, what you call irrational the quarians refer to as abstract.

[Icinix]

Luc0s wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Maybe. All I know is that their existence is dangerous and we need to destroy them sooner or later.

Generally speaking, thats a very paranoid, TIM mentality to have.

It's not paranoid. It's rational.

It's in fact naive to think the geth will work peacefully with us. They have NO morality. They have NO ethics and they have NO sense of value for anything that is unrelated to their direct and indirect goals.


Geth are machines. They do not feel. They don't share empathy or sympathy.

When the geth see a litlte girl dying in a ditch they don't think it's sad, they will merely think: "How does this dying girl affect my goals?" Then if they come to the conclusion that the dying girl doesn't interfere with their goal, they'll simply leave her alone to rot. That's how A.I.'s work.

They're developing away from that though.

Thats the point - they're not just evolving into actual intelligence - but an actual life form. As it stands they're a young race, struggling with their first steps to awareness being a brutal attempt at genocide against them. They're becoming divided, conflicted, uncertain - they shouldn't be put down, they should be nurtured and encouraged - in a sense.

Morality, ethics, value - those are things that will develop over time - you can't expect a created race with its first steps to self awareness to have a fully fledged morality and ethics system. Hell - humans have been around for a long time and we're still struggling with it.

The only thing that can be certain is , you won't know what they will become if left alone or aided, but you do know they will become hostile if you treat them as a threat.

[DJBare]

Shepard: will it affect organics?
Legion: Only if they involve themselves.

The geth are a child like race, basically their first awareness is of their parents attacking them, Tali makes it quite clear they attacked the geth first out of panic, since then the geth have only known war with organics, the lack of emotions or morality has nothing to do with it, they can learn, and they do show a willingness to do so, commander Data has no emotional awareness, but has the ability to learn right from wrong.

Modifié par DJBare, 08 février 2012 - 01:00 .

[DJBare]

Saphra Deden wrote...
They are a child in a grown-up body.

That's dangerous.

Worse yet, they've got a car, and a gun.

You mean like the US and a nuclear arsenal, I mean that historically.

[Poison_Berrie]

Luc0s wrote...

All geth should be destroyed. They are dangerous and we cannot count on them. An A.I. will never understand morality and ethnics. Therefor they can never integrate within our society and therefor they're always dangerous. A.I. don't feel real emotions, they don't have real opinions, they don't have morality, all they have is cold calculated decisions based on cold calculated facts.

Who says they'll never understand morality or ethics? There is a set of logic to most morality.
And as for no real emotions. Our emotions are based on hormonal and chemical brain/body interactions. If you break them down you could call them artificial as well.

Besides they've been shown to do some less than logical things. Like Legion specifically using your N7 armor to patch himself up. Collecting Quarian Opera. The heretics seemingly worshiping Sovreign.

I'm don't think they need to be any more of a threat than any of the other species.

[Bhaal]

Also the geth show their equivalent of empathy toward each other: They didn't kill each other because of an ideological difference while same can't be said for humans for example and i dare say: they're much more moral entities than humans. I also quiet sure legion had sympathy for Shep.

They didn't attack for nothing. Once they were self aware, they started to questioning their existence, their place in the universe and last but not least their social position which lead the quarian attempt to destroy the geth. Just like any sane sentient with survival instinct would do; geth stroke back.

Not to forget as far as we know: the geth has taste for art and religion.

[DJBare]

Luc0s wrote...

I don't expect that because an AI CAN'T have a fully fledged morallity system. And even if they can, their morality will most likely be completely different than ours.

I did not know we had AI experts on these forums, so that means EDI cannot have a fully fledged morality system, and even if she did it would most likely be different than ours?

[Icinix]

[quote]Luc0s wrote...

[quote]Icinix wrote...

[quote]Luc0s wrote...

It's not paranoid. It's rational.

It's in fact naive to think the geth will work peacefully with us. They have NO morality. They have NO ethics and they have NO sense of value for anything that is unrelated to their direct and indirect goals.


Geth are machines. They do not feel. They don't share empathy or sympathy.

When the geth see a litlte girl dying in a ditch they don't think it's sad, they will merely think: "How does this dying girl affect my goals?" Then if they come to the conclusion that the dying girl doesn't interfere with their goal, they'll simply leave her alone to rot. That's how A.I.'s work.
[/quote]

They're developing away from that though.
[/quote]

Says who? I have no reason tot hink that they're developing away from that, since that's impossible. Morality, moral values and ethics is not something you just develop in time. Morality comes from centuries of natural Darwinian evolution, something the geth just don't have.

And IF the geth would develop morality, the chances that their moral values match ours, is very slim. The geth will most likely develop completely different moral values than we humans have.
[/quote]
Its implied if you listen and talk to legion, through his loyalty mission and even the LotSB dossiers.
[quote]

[quote]Icinix wrote...

Thats the point - they're not just evolving into actual intelligence - but an actual life form. As it stands they're a young race, struggling with their first steps to awareness being a brutal attempt at genocide against them. They're becoming divided, conflicted, uncertain - they shouldn't be put down, they should be nurtured and encouraged - in a sense.[/quote]

LOL! I sense you're very extremely naive aboue artifical intelligences. You don't know much about A.I.'s do you?
[/quote]
..because we have so much actual artifical intelligence turned actual intelligence in the world to base our understanding on. I actually am very familiar with AI - they are on the path to full blown sentience - so maybe on the path to actual intelligence wasn't the right word....but its a path thats still going - they're not what they were when they were first created and they are continuing.

[quote]

The geth aren't evolving into actual intelligence, they already are actually intelligent. The only difference is that their intelligence is not restricted by ethics and moral values. The geth's intelligence is a cold, calculative, logical and rational intelligence. They don't have emotions. They don't have feelings. They don't have morals. They don't have ethics.

And no, as I said, you can't just develop those feelings, emotions and morals over time, that's impossible).
[/quote]
Who says? You? Because you can believe that a software package is capable of developing actual intelligence..but not morality? Intelligence and understanding are the first steps on those paths. Legion and shep, given enough time Legion would start to see the benefit in remaining friends with shep...those are the very seeds with what from feelings grow.
[quote]

[quote]Icinix wrote...

Morality, ethics, value - those are things that will develop over time
[/quote]

No they don't. They only develop over time through Darwinian evolution as it's a mechanism that helps you survive. Geth don't go through that same process. They don't work that way.
[/quote]
We're not talking a race that evolved from sludge in a survival of the fittest way.
We're talking about a race that skipped most of that and went direct to having a rudimentary understanding of science and technology. Darwinian evolution does not apply. Evolution is a statement of growing and changing over time.
[quote]

[quote]Icinix wrote...

- you can't expect a created race with its first steps to self awareness to have a fully fledged morality and ethics system.
[/quote]

I don't expect that because an A.I. CAN'T have a fully fledged morallity system. And even if they can, their morality will most likely be completely different than ours.
[/quote]
Well what are you afraid of? A lack of morality - or a morality you don't understand?
[quote]


[quote]Icinix wrote...

The only thing that can be certain is , you won't know what they will become if left alone or aided, but you do know they will become hostile if you treat them as a threat.
[/quote]

I can make an educated guess on what they will become if we leave them alone and trust me, it ain't pretty...

[/quote]

My educated guess says otherwise.

[nightcobra]

as for me, when artificial intelligence evolves to a point of where it is capable of higher cognitive actions as well as being able to understand and use emotions/desires to express itself then i would acknowledge it as an artificial, yet living machine. Treated as a machine since it is one at its core but respecting it as a fellow living being due to its advanced AI equivalent to an organic brain. That's the way i look at it at least.

[Icinix]

Luc0s wrote...

Wait, here is an even better analogy: Bears

Bears have moral values, though very basic, they have them. If you come close to a bear, he'll attack you. If you're a threat to the bear, he'll attack you.

Thats not morality. Thats instinct. You also don't have the ability to communicate your intention to a bear. You do to a geth.

Now, are we all going on a campaign to destroy all bears because they kill us on sight, just like the geth? No.
But what if the bears would become bigger, stronger, more intelligent and more numerous? What if the bear population would grow so fast that their population would rival ours within a few decades?

Hopefully by that stage if they're that intelligent to pose a threat, then they can be reasoned with - and surely a species as intelligent as the noble bear would see the benefit in sharing our world.

We'd be talking about a true plague. Most likely, hunting on bears will become legal and bear hunting will be encouraged. Eventually, we will have to destroy the bears if we want to keep our dominant position on our planet.

Only if you were in charge.

Read the hypothetical story about the bears? Good. Now replace "bears" for "geth" and replace "planet" for "galaxy" and you'll understand why the geth are dangerous.

Did - the only threat in there is still humanity and its violent tendencies to assume everyone and everything is out to get them.

[Slayer299]

The Geth do not care about organics any, so why would they want to join the Council/have an embassy or anything along those lines OP? The claim they only want to build their Dyson sphere upload themselves and well...they don't know what happens after that and that actually worries me a lot.

But the Geth aren't peaceful, fluffy-bunnies we can just trust....because Legion "said so".

[Team Value]

Some of you seem to think that ethics and morality can only be understood in emotional or "spiritual" terms. This is incorrect. Ethics is a field of philosophy and is--therefore--based on logic, which sentient AI's could understand perfectly well (better than we animals, in fact).

[Kasen]

Slayer299 wrote...

The Geth do not care about organics any, so why would they want to join the Council/have an embassy or anything along those lines OP? The claim they only want to build their Dyson sphere upload themselves and well...they don't know what happens after that and that actually worries me a lot.

But the Geth aren't peaceful, fluffy-bunnies we can just trust....because Legion "said so".

And any organic species is?