237 réponses à ce sujet

[LetMeW1n]

Lolol no one's picking apart my flawed arguments. Btw I'm pretty sure you can find plenty of equally 'intelligent' articles defending AI, or the "unknown", in this case. For this friendly discussion I'm rooting Icinix, lol.

EDIT: Ok not really defending, just trying to invalidate arguments against AI, and reserving judgement for more understanding. "too many variables", I think. Wait let me get the link

Modifié par LetMeW1n, 08 février 2012 - 02:40 .

[DJBare]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Not aritificial.
I don't bawl when I delete virus or a file from my HD. I'm not shedding any tears for the geth either.

You did not answer the question, how do you define "true" life?
So far the geth have self awareness, the need to survive, an interest in art, it's beginning to sound like life to me, artificial or not.

[Icinix]

Luc0s wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

@Icinix:

Seems you didn't understand anything from the article at all.

Did you even read it? The article explained perfectly well why A.I.s are dangerous.

From the perspective of someone terrified of the unknown.

Ehhhh no. The autor of the article is not scared, he just knows what he's talking about, unlike you. You clearly still don't understand anything written in that article.

The article is quite reasonable. You would see that if you werent so ignorant.

Read my reply to lotion.

I'm guessing by your agressive response the answer to my last quesiton is a yes?

[WizenSlinky0]

Slayer299 wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Some may be forgetting the reason for the Dyson sphere in the first place. To reach a higher level of consciousness. Something like a true consciousness. Really, not sure what their big deal is with getting dumber away from each other. I know plenty of people who get dumber the CLOSER they get to people.

But jokes aside, as the Geth continue to evolve and become more individualized platforms it is very possible for them to play a role in the galaxy.

I don't see the Geth as becoming more individualized platforms, with Legion he was designed that way so he could operate far away from Geth space and at a higher intelligence level since as we know the average Geth platform is no more intelligent than a varren when it is alone.

The other 99% of Geth platforms will not be doing what Legion has anytime soon though.

I disagree. The geth have always been evolving. As their code is exposed to new experiences, it alters their thought processes in new ways. I doubt they would have ever considered something like legion after the war with the quarians.

They are evolving. Creating new ways to interact and create. While we normally only see them squeaking and making flashlight noises infront of us as we mow them down, I'd say that behind the scenes in the greater Geth network they are very much expanding their horizons.

I'd suspect it wouldn't take much more than one breakthrough of code for them to optimize the moble platforms on an individual basis.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Thanks to my new studies and also Lotion and Luc0s, I found out that the Geth is/are amoral, dangerous and also essentially not part of the life. AIs can overcome life forms and get rid of them over time.

Admiral Koris seems the only reasonable Quarian in the flotilla. Both sides should forgive each other and co-exist peacefully on the homeplanet for a purpose.
The only things that must be done is Peace proposal by Quarians and plus guarantying non-hostile relations (on behalf of other races) and informing the Council of this plan using direct speech (no radio transmission)It is absolutely recommended that the Geth Armada will fight with the reapers at the first front with all their forces, then others help them from other directions.

If they survive this first battle they're allowed to live peacefully (by the galactic treaty) in the galaxy after the war and have few territories on Quarian Homeplanet. The point is even if they survive this battle, their numbers will be so thin and they won't be a treat anymore. My Geniune Plan is ultimately for favor of everyone. More troops to fight the reapers (considering rewriting the Base and this peace), doing Koris plan and returning of Quarians to their Homeworld, removing Geth danger without completely annihilating them, obtaining Geth freedom and Galactic Peace.
Also there is a chance that they don't survive this battle.

Any objections on this plan?

[Icinix]

LetMeW1n wrote...

Lolol no one's picking apart my flawed arguments. Btw I'm pretty sure you can find plenty of equally 'intelligent' articles defending AI, or the "unknown", in this case. For this friendly discussion I'm rooting Icinix, lol.

EDIT: Ok not really defending, just trying to invalidate arguments against AI, and reserving judgement for more understanding. "too many variables", I think. Wait let me get the link

Your arguments are along the same lines as what everyone else has been saying.

But yeah - there is definitely articles that are very pro AI as well. Its once again a perspective thing and where your own morals sit and all completely speculative - because the fact is  - no one has a crap chance in hell of having any idea how an AI might evolve and develop.

Anyway! This has been fun - but its now 12:17am - and I'm up in 5 hours for work! So until next time!

Also - these debates are always great to show that games can be art and bring up some very good discussions...

..until they get heated and start with petty insults - thats in just another internet forum and time to bail.


Edit: Wait - just saw this in the middle of Luc0s last post and had to reply.

Luc0s wrote...
My answer to that is: you obviously STILL don't understand anything of this. Leave it be, this is clearly way over your head.

No I understand it, and I get it. Its not over my head - I just dont agree with it or believe it.

But if you feel the need to declare genocide on a race you don't understand, and call me ignorant or claiming I don't understand because I don't agree with it - maybe its not the Geth that are a threat to human morality.

Modifié par Icinix, 08 février 2012 - 02:59 .

[DiegoProgMetal]

I cant answer without citing the leaked script. Some things that may happen, could change the dyson sphere thing... Let's just say the geth self-conception (what they think of themselves and how they behave) may change drastically, depending on some decisions.

[Poison_Berrie]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But the Geth are not truly aline. No AI is.
AI, as presented in ME is fantasy. AI, by it's very nature is dangerous.

All AI should be destroyed. All of it. EDI included. If I had the choice, I'd fry her the second I stepped on Normandy Mk2.

Perhaps they are not alive in the way an organic machine is, but it is sentient.

If AI by it's very nature is dangerous, why do we try to create it. why do continue advancing computers and the programs we run on them. We should smash it all.
What is so inherently dangerous about it?

In all honesty the motives of extraterrestial live should just be as hard to grasp as AI's should be.
If in ME they aren't, so too should AI's not be unfathomable dangerous and shouldn't warrant destruction at every turn. If they are we should start killing other species as well.

[Seraphithan]

Luc0s wrote...

@Icinix:

Seems you didn't understand anything from the article at all.

Did you even read it? The article explained perfectly well why A.I.s are dangerous.

And you ignore that the Geth have already progressed beyond the potentially dangerous limitations described in the article. The Morning War after all did not happen because the Geth decided that the best way to serve the quarians was to exterminate them but because they developed an interest in topics completly detached from the goals set by the quarians.

[Collider]

They can't join if they're dead.

[knightnblu]

Just a couple of problems. First, nobody trusts an AI. An AI went rogue in the past and nearly took the galaxy down. That isn't an easy fear to overcome. Second, how do you know when an AI is telling you the truth? It's interface is essentially a machine and machines can be instructed to do anything that it's owner wishes it to do and that provides yet another hurdle for trust. Third, there are many organics who do not view AI as being life. In fact, there are many on these boards who hold the same opinion. Further, recognition of the Geth may alienate the Quarians who view them as their property/enemies.
 
Those are a lot of hurdles to overcome. Add in the fact that a segment of the Geth population went rogue and attacked the Citadel with the acquiescence of their fellows and that increases the tension of the organic species. How do they know that it will not occur again? Why didn't the Geth move to stop them if they knew that innocents would perish? The galaxy fears AI and it is right to fear them given its past history with them. Unless and until that has been overcome, best to leave the Geth in their space.

[WizenSlinky0]

Organics are just as dangerous as synthetics, if not more so. At least synthetics use more logic than we do.

[knightnblu]

DiegoProgMetal wrote...

I cant answer without citing the leaked script. Some things that may happen, could change the dyson sphere thing... Let's just say the geth self-conception (what they think of themselves and how they behave) may change drastically, depending on some decisions.

If I were the Reapers, it would be one of my prime objectives to take out in my assault on the Geth. For them, the sphere has to go for two reason, first it offers a base to my enemies. Second, it is likely that there is full inormation on the Reapers and we can't have sentient species finding it and prepping for future Reaping cylcles.

[knightnblu]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Organics are just as dangerous as synthetics, if not more so. At least synthetics use more logic than we do.

Read "The Cold Equations" by Harlan Ellison and you may change your mind about the use of logic as the sole governor of a being.

[WizenSlinky0]

knightnblu wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Organics are just as dangerous as synthetics, if not more so. At least synthetics use more logic than we do.

Read "The Cold Equations" by Harlan Ellison and you may change your mind about the use of logic as the sole governor of a being.

I do not believe logic can successfuly govern a society on its own. Which is why I support synthetics becoming more "human" in their interactions.

But, in some areas it can be damn helpful.

[Slayer299]

Kasen13 wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

Kasen13 wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

The Geth do not care about organics any, so why would they want to join the Council/have an embassy or anything along those lines OP? The claim they only want to build their Dyson sphere upload themselves and well...they don't know what happens after that and that actually worries me a lot.

But the Geth aren't peaceful, fluffy-bunnies we can just trust....because Legion "said so".

And any organic species is?

Never said we were, but too many people seem to just assign 'gentle, misunderstood and too intelligent to want to kill' to the Geth and the Geth have shown themselves more than willing to kill organics on sight. When was the last time a stranger walked up to you and started shooting? You can't say the same about the Geth however.

Happens all the time in the real world... I could start listing off the countries where that very thing is going on in a massive scale right this moment (and in many cases for far less reason than the Geth have), but it'd be a very, very long list.

I'm not going to to a comparison here with violent countries on the planet vs. the Geth as that is not the point. The point *is* that the Geth do not care about organics and are more than capable of efficently waging a war against organics than we are against ourselves.

With that, I'm not advocating we wipe the Geth out, just be prepared to fight them when it happens.

[darthnick427]

All I can say is: Legion for councilor!

edit: Hell at some point I wouldn't be surprised if all of Shepards crew are on the Council some day

Modifié par darthnick427, 08 février 2012 - 04:31 .

[WizenSlinky0]

Welcome to the Normandy Council. First order of business Shepard would like to extend his thanks to all of us for actually doing something to stop the reapers. *clap clap clap clap* Thank you Shepard, for your kind words of competence.

Second order of business, Tali would like to inform the rest of the council she has a shotgun. Garrus that might be especially important for you to make a note of.

Third order of business. Jack blew up another diplomatic ship due to the paint job.

[Slayer299]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Some may be forgetting the reason for the Dyson sphere in the first place. To reach a higher level of consciousness. Something like a true consciousness. Really, not sure what their big deal is with getting dumber away from each other. I know plenty of people who get dumber the CLOSER they get to people.

But jokes aside, as the Geth continue to evolve and become more individualized platforms it is very possible for them to play a role in the galaxy.

I don't see the Geth as becoming more individualized platforms, with Legion he was designed that way so he could operate far away from Geth space and at a higher intelligence level since as we know the average Geth platform is no more intelligent than a varren when it is alone.

The other 99% of Geth platforms will not be doing what Legion has anytime soon though.

I disagree. The geth have always been evolving. As their code is exposed to new experiences, it alters their thought processes in new ways. I doubt they would have ever considered something like legion after the war with the quarians.

They are evolving. Creating new ways to interact and create. While we normally only see them squeaking and making flashlight noises infront of us as we mow them down, I'd say that behind the scenes in the greater Geth network they are very much expanding their horizons.

I'd suspect it wouldn't take much more than one breakthrough of code for them to optimize the moble platforms on an individual basis.

The Geth are most at home when they are all networked together, why would they suddenly decide that mobile platforms with a few hundred Geth on it would be superior to being networked as software. Legion is an experiment to enable him to achieve his goal(s) and a successful one, but they don't see themselves as individuals, but as part of the Geth whole. Individual platforms (such as Legion) run contrary to this entirely and it would take a massive change in their programming to alter it so much.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Kasen13 wrote...
And I would argue that LIFE "by it's very nature" is dangerous.

If it's competing for the same resources? More or less.

You can't just wipe something out because it might be a danger.

Oh? Tell that to the Rachnii and Krogan.

In fact, what you are suggesting is the exact thing that led the Geth to become hostile in the first place! Of course they're going to be violent when faced with extinction.

As long as we make them extinct before they make us....

[Lotion Soronarr]

Poison_Berrie wrote...
Perhaps they are not alive in the way an organic machine is, but it is sentient.

Is it?

If AI by it's very nature is dangerous, why do we try to create it. why do continue advancing computers and the programs we run on them. We should smash it all.
What is so inherently dangerous about it?

Because we're stupid. And while we're trying to create AI, note that we're not talking about REAL AI's.
The best AI we have today is nothing.
One does not simply create sentience or a soul. One does not simply program that.

Sure, once can make a convincing simulation that can trick us fleshies - becase we know to what cues we respond.
We know how to get an emotial response. Legion isn't real. Neither are the characters from our favorite 3D movies (example: tangled). Their facial expression are "fake", as are their response. It's actually really easy to trick/manipulate us.

I could - for exampe - program a AI (not true AI) to occasinaly do something random, and when asked for explanation as to why it didi it, to reaspond with "I don't know". That will make it look more alive to you...like it is experiencing emotion or something.

If in ME they aren't, so too should AI's not be unfathomable dangerous and shouldn't warrant destruction at every turn. If they are we should start killing other species as well.

AI's are fundamentaly different thant organics..and they're not truly alive.

Every time and everywhere I will always strive to destroy them..all.

[AlexXIV]

I have a question. What exactly is the difference betwen AI and our 'natural' intelligence. Why exactly do we have emotions and why can't an AI have it? Because I think basically humans are biological machines. Which raises the question why we would be different from non biological machines. I mean basically even emotions is only information processed in a certain way. Why should it not be possible to do for an AI? As far as I know (and I am no expert) the only reason why computers are inferior to humans is because we are much more complicated and hardware is not advanced enough to simulate a human brain. I could be wrong though.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 08 février 2012 - 05:49 .

[Someone With Mass]

I don't think the geth will care much about the organics after ME3.

They'll go on with their own goal.