237 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
One does not simply create sentience or a soul.

You know a soul is after all a metaphysical term. Mostly used by religions. There is no proof that something as a soul even exists. But if it existed, why could it not be created? If we possess souls, where do they come from if they cannot be created?

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

I have a question. What exactly is the difference betwen AI and our 'natural' intelligence. Why exactly do we have emotions and why can't an AI have it? Because I think basically humans are biological machines. Which raises the question why we would be different from non biological machines. I mean basically even emotions are only informations processed in a certain way. Why should it not be possible to do for an AI? As far as I know (and I am no expert) the only reason why computers are inferior to humans is because we are much more complicated and hardware is not advanced enough to simulate a human brain. I could be wrong though.

You are wrong.

AI is arificial. Made. It does not "evolve".
The idea that anyone will make a proper functioning AI is redicolous.

Call me back once you get a mathematical represntation of morals, meaning of self and all other kinds of abstract things humans deal on a daily basis.
You cannot program a soul. You cannot program morals.

Humans are biological machines? Are we just that?
Can you even re-create a biologicla machine in a mechanical shell?

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I have a question. What exactly is the difference betwen AI and our 'natural' intelligence. Why exactly do we have emotions and why can't an AI have it? Because I think basically humans are biological machines. Which raises the question why we would be different from non biological machines. I mean basically even emotions are only informations processed in a certain way. Why should it not be possible to do for an AI? As far as I know (and I am no expert) the only reason why computers are inferior to humans is because we are much more complicated and hardware is not advanced enough to simulate a human brain. I could be wrong though.

You are wrong.

AI is arificial. Made. It does not "evolve".
The idea that anyone will make a proper functioning AI is redicolous.

Call me back once you get a mathematical represntation of morals, meaning of self and all other kinds of abstract things humans deal on a daily basis.
You cannot program a soul. You cannot program morals.

Humans are biological machines? Are we just that?
Can you even re-create a biologicla machine in a mechanical shell?

Just because I can't do something or explain something it doesn't mean that it is not possible. I mean you for example can't prove that I am wrong. You can claim it and you can say that I am wrong because I cannot prove my theory. But you cannot disprove it.

Just because something does not evolve in a biolocal way doesn't mean that it can't evolve at all. After all the Geth in ME have shown signs of evolution. They just don't 'grow' in a biological sense. They have to build and rebuild themselves.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 08 février 2012 - 05:57 .

[ianvillan]

I dont trust the Geth at all, Alot of people say that they just want to be left alone to build there Dyson sphere.

I would think it will take an incredible amount of resources to build the sphere, What if they need the resources from an planet that belongs to one of the council races, will that race hand over a whole planet and move all the people who live there just for the Geth, And what if the Race says no will the Geth accept that decicion.

Say that the Geth do build the Sphere and live there peacefully for 1000 years whos to say that they may decide the organic races are too violent and are wasting all the natural resources of the galaxy and decide to wipe us all out.

You then have a whole race contained in a collective living away from everyone else coming in to wipe out advanced races of the galaxy, Who else thinks that that sounds like the Reapers.

[nightcobra]

AlexXIV wrote...

I have a question. What exactly is the difference betwen AI and our 'natural' intelligence. Why exactly do we have emotions and why can't an AI have it? Because I think basically humans are biological machines. Which raises the question why we would be different from non biological machines. I mean basically even emotions are only informations processed in a certain way. Why should it not be possible to do for an AI? As far as I know (and I am no expert) the only reason why computers are inferior to humans is because we are much more complicated and hardware is not advanced enough to simulate a human brain. I could be wrong though.

that's pretty much my reasoning, we're all machines in one way or another. it's only the materials we're made of and how complex our structures are that differ.

an AI, although artificial it can evolve as opposed to a VI, an AI would be capable of independent thought and be also able to learn. 

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 08 février 2012 - 06:01 .

[WizenSlinky0]

Slayer299 wrote...

The Geth are most at home when they are all networked together, why would they suddenly decide that mobile platforms with a few hundred Geth on it would be superior to being networked as software. Legion is an experiment to enable him to achieve his goal(s) and a successful one, but they don't see themselves as individuals, but as part of the Geth whole. Individual platforms (such as Legion) run contrary to this entirely and it would take a massive change in their programming to alter it so much.

The point was that even the creation of an independent platform was an evolution, as they had never attempted something like that before.

Seeing yourself as one part of a whole is also part of many human doctrines as well. Just because something doesn't express individuality doesn't mean it isn't an individual. The Geth take consensus and have differing opinions, despite supposedly having the exact same coding and information when plugged into eachother.

They are evolving.

[BatmanPWNS]

The batarians have a higher chance.

[mybudgee]

Let the Geth be. We should be working on sending the quarians packing. They are weak winers.

[eye basher]

With the geth i'd rather wreck them just in case or as they say ''when in doubt frag out''.

[Gabey5]

I need more facts before i jump in on one side or the other

Depends on what the galaxy looks like.

If the geth just wanna do their dyson sphere and do their own thing i am fine with that

They don't want an embassy, they have no need

Just stay away from them and they will stay away from you

communicate only as necessary

[Ryzaki]

Collider wrote...

They can't join if they're dead.

Duh same would go any other species too.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 février 2012 - 06:29 .

[WizenSlinky0]

When Shepard is about to die they plan to upload all his memories and thought processes into a geth platform.

Shepard: Shepard-Commander has reached consensus.
Legion: Perform dance routine 109-21-R
Shepard: Acknowledged *does the robot*

[Poison_Berrie]

Slayer299 wrote...

I'm not going to to a comparison here with violent countries on the planet vs. the Geth as that is not the point. The point *is* that the Geth do not care about organics and are more than capable of efficently waging a war against organics than we are against ourselves.

I think your selling us organics short there.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Is it?

For the purpose of this game we have been given ample evidence.

AI's are fundamentaly different thant organics..and they're not truly alive.

Though they might be fundamentaly different, the game presents them as alive.
You might not like that, but from the narrative they are considered "alive".

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AI is arificial. Made. It does not "evolve".
The idea that anyone will make a proper functioning AI is redicolous.

A myriad of people in that field of study seem to disagree with you on both.
There have been (succesful) experiments in which programs are set to create improved versions of themselves.

Call me back once you get a mathematical represntation of morals, meaning of self and all other kinds of abstract things humans deal on a daily basis.
You cannot program a soul. You cannot program morals.

But there is logic behind those morals. We don't adhere to them simple because, we adhere to them because they form the basis on which we can build our society. And regularly we ignore them when it doesn't concern our group/tribe.

Humans are biological machines? Are we just that?
Can you even re-create a biologicla machine in a mechanical shell?

If we are more why could a non-biological machine never be?
Well as of now not a very effictient one. The connection between the mechanical biological parts isn't all that.
But consider this, we can now create lifeforms that would not have naturally evolved on earth (because they use extra-terrestial or synthetic amino-acids). It's single celled organisms, but it still stands that we are doing things now we never held possible a century before.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...
Just because something does not evolve in a biolocal way doesn't mean that it can't evolve at all. After all the Geth in ME have shown signs of evolution. They just don't 'grow' in a biological sense. They have to build and rebuild themselves.

For all I care the geth can fart rainbows and humans can shoot ice fire out of their nostrils.
Nothing the Geths shown ins't something that can't be fakes easily..and since when does a game show a viable scientific future?

[Lotion Soronarr]

nightcobra8928 wrote...
an AI, although artificial it can evolve as opposed to a VI, an AI would be capable of independent thought and be also able to learn.

You don't "learn" things like empathy.
You either have it or you don't.

[DarthSliver]

You cant be against the Geth because of the Morning War, its been stated many times that the Quarians kept pushing the fight against the Geth when they shouldnt have. It is the Quarians fault that so many were lost because if you talk to Legion he even states that the Quarians attacked when they thought they had the upperhand when in reality they did not.

Now how much id like to see the Geth join the Citadel races up at the Citadel, like others have said the Geth dont wish pursue that. They are only interacting with Shepard to help the Organics fight The Reapers since The Reapers are even a threat to them. They wish to upload themselves into the Dyson sphere and even make peace with their creators and give them their worlds back. Just no one knew this until Legion met up with Shepard because of the Geth past history with their organic creators.


Also the Terminator movies didnt really happen, they were made for our entertainment by James Cameron.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Poison_Berrie wrote...
Though they might be fundamentaly different, the game presents them as alive.
You might not like that, but from the narrative they are considered "alive".

I'll make my own conclusions, thank you.
They aren't alive. They just act well.

And neither do  I care.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AI is arificial. Made. It does not "evolve".
The idea that anyone will make a proper functioning AI is redicolous.

A myriad of people in that field of study seem to disagree with you on both.
There have been (succesful) experiments in which programs are set to create improved versions of themselves.

If you ever bothered to dig deeper into the studies, you should know that is something compeltely different. I had one of the top AI experts in the world come and hold a presentation in our college.
If you only realised how limited the AI in reality is....

Call me back once you get a mathematical represntation of morals, meaning of self and all other kinds of abstract things humans deal on a daily basis.
You cannot program a soul. You cannot program morals.

But there is logic behind those morals. We don't adhere to them simple because, we adhere to them because they form the basis on which we can build our society. And regularly we ignore them when it doesn't concern our group/tribe.

As I said - mathematicl represenations. Came back wiht talk.
Don't talk to me about "the logic behind it" given how we humans quibble about the logic beehind on a daily basis.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DarthSliver wrote...

You cant be against the Geth because of the Morning War,

Sez who?

Legion?

[Sajuro]

andy69156915 wrote...

I was thinking earlier to myself, the Geth could join the rest of galactic society. Once they show that they aren't generally war-like and actually like and prefer peace, and especially if they help defeat the Reapers, they'll probably be offered at least an embassy. Now, for that, the Geth are going to have to make a lot more prototypes like Legion, as that it what it will take for Geth to be smart enough and able to communicate to be part of Council space. Once offered, I'm sure the Geth would be happy to accept, they find organics interesting, and this would be a fascinating experience for them.

All the quarians just lose their **** and blow the citadel up.

[Silentblaze]

 Assuming I went with peace and survival for both quarians and geth sure I'd love for the geth to become a council race eventually.   Be nice to have a councilor that will give logic and facts to situations rather than think politics and "dismissing" opinions first.
Humans don't need to be the only species that blitz through the political hierarchy.  The geth could follow humanity's lead and join up.  They got the military force needed to be considered a major galactic power.  At the least they could establish an Embassy for simple talks like tresspassing (or such) instead of shoot on sight.

[BatmanPWNS]

Sajuro wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

I was thinking earlier to myself, the Geth could join the rest of galactic society. Once they show that they aren't generally war-like and actually like and prefer peace, and especially if they help defeat the Reapers, they'll probably be offered at least an embassy. Now, for that, the Geth are going to have to make a lot more prototypes like Legion, as that it what it will take for Geth to be smart enough and able to communicate to be part of Council space. Once offered, I'm sure the Geth would be happy to accept, they find organics interesting, and this would be a fascinating experience for them.

All the quarians just lose their **** and blow the citadel up.

And rightfully they should.

[Slayer299]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

The Geth are most at home when they are all networked together, why would they suddenly decide that mobile platforms with a few hundred Geth on it would be superior to being networked as software. Legion is an experiment to enable him to achieve his goal(s) and a successful one, but they don't see themselves as individuals, but as part of the Geth whole. Individual platforms (such as Legion) run contrary to this entirely and it would take a massive change in their programming to alter it so much.

The point was that even the creation of an independent platform was an evolution, as they had never attempted something like that before.

Seeing yourself as one part of a whole is also part of many human doctrines as well. Just because something doesn't express individuality doesn't mean it isn't an individual. The Geth take consensus and have differing opinions, despite supposedly having the exact same coding and information when plugged into eachother.

They are evolving.

An independent platform like Legion isn't an evolution, it was an experiment created out of a necessity to find someone who lived outside of the Perseus Veil and thus too far from the networked Geth. The Geth didn't create Legion and go "wow man! look at this! we should all try it!"

Of course the Geth have different point of view, it was what made so very effective initially as workers as their programing dictated. So as to give them different views to solutions on a single problem. That is not evolution. The Geth are *not* individuals, even Legion says this very clearly on several occasions. "We are Geth." Not I, We.

[Slayer299]

DarthSliver wrote...

You cant be against the Geth because of the Morning War, its been stated many times that the Quarians kept pushing the fight against the Geth when they shouldnt have. It is the Quarians fault that so many were lost because if you talk to Legion he even states that the Quarians attacked when they thought they had the upperhand when in reality they did not.

Now how much id like to see the Geth join the Citadel races up at the Citadel, like others have said the Geth dont wish pursue that. They are only interacting with Shepard to help the Organics fight The Reapers since The Reapers are even a threat to them. They wish to upload themselves into the Dyson sphere and even make peace with their creators and give them their worlds back. Just no one knew this until Legion met up with Shepard because of the Geth past history with their organic creators.


Also the Terminator movies didnt really happen, they were made for our entertainment by James Cameron.

Of course you can be against the Geth, that is just silly to state otherwise. Now believing Legion alone without any corroboration is just plain foolish. Now, why you trust Legion so blindly is something I'd like to understand, his being a Geth does not remove the ability for him to lie everything he's told you or at least artfully edit what you've been told and cannot verify through another source.

[CashGrab]

Think the Geth have no interest in being a citadel species, less so a council one, the position involves knowledge of how organics behave and from the evidence of Legion they do not have the capacity to process or decide such things. If they had an embassey it would be more symbolic of the Council wanting to appear to be allied or having a measure of legititmacy over them than true wish by the geth to become a diplomatic force. In terms of economics too they have too much to offer and less to take; all they'd require would be resources perhaps, they'd offer too much computer expertise and products if they intergrated and some races 'd be pissed at the inflation. Bit detailed but realistic i suppose, they'd rather volunatry isolation in their dyson sphere.

[Poison_Berrie]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I'll make my own conclusions, thank you.
They aren't alive. They just act well.

I'm just saying that from what the game presents, the story doesn't seem to agree with you.
Characters like EDI and Legion are meant to be self-aware and sentient and though you and/or your Shepard may not consider that actual life, the story itself seems otherwise inclined.

From a story perspective you are wrong.