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[DJBare]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
One does not simply create sentience or a soul. One does not simply program that.

I wondered how long it would take you to bring up "soul"; I don't know if the geth have a soul, I don't know if I have a soul, no one has shown me impirical proof of a "soul";

Now define sentience, you can look it up, self awareness is top of the list, the geth seem pretty self aware to me.

You should check out "The measure of a man"; a star trek tng episode, I rarely take examples from scifi's for obvious reasons, but that particular episode is quite profound.

[WizenSlinky0]

Slayer299 wrote...

An independent platform like Legion isn't an evolution, it was an experiment created out of a necessity to find someone who lived outside of the Perseus Veil and thus too far from the networked Geth. The Geth didn't create Legion and go "wow man! look at this! we should all try it!"

Of course the Geth have different point of view, it was what made so very effective initially as workers as their programing dictated. So as to give them different views to solutions on a single problem. That is not evolution. The Geth are *not* individuals, even Legion says this very clearly on several occasions. "We are Geth." Not I, We.

You're telling me there was never another time in 300 years where it wouldn't have been useful to have a scout outside the Perseus Veil? Yeah, ok. The fact it was an experiment they carried out is really proof enough for me they have changed and evolved enough.

No, they were exceptionally good workers because they could crowd-source their low-level processes to allow them to complete more complex tasks. Their programming should essentially be the same, such that once the geth are within significant distance of eachother, the shared experiences coordinate to reach a single most effective solution.

This does not happen.

Just because they don't see themselves as individuals means they aren't? Really? How odd. I mean, its not like if you had learning capabilities, being repeatedly told you are a synthetic with no consciousness would ever sink in. I would postulate they were condiontioned by their enviroment to eliminate their independence, rather than not having it.

The fact their processes can disagree means they have individual quirks and personalities that process the same information in different ways. Inherently, they cannot be considered a single collective self but a symbiotic synthetic.

They have a long long way to go without outside forces intervening, but they are evolving.

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 08 février 2012 - 07:25 .

[incinerator950]

DJBare wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
One does not simply create sentience or a soul. One does not simply program that.

I wondered how long it would take you to bring up "soul"; I don't know if the geth have a soul, I don't know if I have a soul, no one has shown me impirical proof of a "soul";

Now define sentience, you can look it up, self awareness is top of the list, the geth seem pretty self aware to me.

You should check out "The measure of a man"; a star trek tng episode, I rarely take examples from scifi's for obvious reasons, but that particular episode is quite profound.

There's also a Stargate SG-1 episode that defines this accordingly, I forget the name of it, the one with the implanted AI who looked like a fat bald guy.

[somecthemes]

A common moral delemma concidered to be a requirement for developing a AI is the stolen candy model, which is just a supposed model that says the antagonist, the AI, wants a piece of candy, and the infant in the cradel has a lolly pop. Almost every developed model that used iterative computation of enviromental stimuli can correctly descern that beyond life saving measure, the candy shouldn't be take, or that the candy is taken, but only due to set objectives.
Now a lot of science is done to give us a emulation of social morals, but any novice who saw the code would immediately assume it was the model's attempt at a soul. Such reactions are just humans trying to personify rigid service as intuitive though processes, a serious mischaracterization of AI. That's why I loved the use of VI in the game, it's much more accurate.
The is no soul in AI, or only by redically redefining the word "evidence" could be ascribe the trait to humans in general. The models created thus far are limited, such being the limitations of machinery that for every model created, someone can create a situation that'd defy the original goal of morality, like by saying either kill a kid or kill a hundred adults, either solution would be morally evil, we wouldn't hold it against a human for not knowing what to do, but any attempt at AI gets nailed for having the same weaknesses from lack of information as we do.
So that's my input, there's no point when a VI might become a AI, as data inputs and coding will never approximate the chaotic thought patterns of man that can lead every millionth man in the stolen candy model to kill the kid. It's kinda sad that any created intelligence will have it's basis in such different foundations that they'll never be truely analogous to human intelligence, definately better, faster, infinately more reliable, but lacking the element of screwed up that makes a human soul, assuming you follow the general definition of a soul.

[WizenSlinky0]

somecthemes wrote...
So that's my input, there's no point when a VI might become a AI, as data inputs and coding will never approximate the chaotic thought patterns of man that can lead every millionth man in the stolen candy model to kill the kid. It's kinda sad that any created intelligence will have it's basis in such different foundations that they'll never be truely analogous to human intelligence, definately better, faster, infinately more reliable, but lacking the element of screwed up that makes a human soul, assuming you follow the general definition of a soul.

I'll agree, obviously, that we currently lack even close to enough understanding to develop one.

But to say at no point in the future? Really? Brave.

Lot of things humans said would never be done, that eventually were. I'd say the same would apply here. We'll get there. We always do. Even when it's the worst decision we could make.

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 08 février 2012 - 07:31 .

[DJBare]

This thought crossed my mind earlier, how many here found it immoral to rewrite the geth and how many of you used the AI hacking power when fighting geth?

[DJBare]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...
I'll agree, obviously, that we currently lack even close to enough understanding to develop one.

But to say at no point in the future? Really? Brave.

Lot of things humans said would never be done, that eventually were. I'd say the same would apply here. We'll get there. We always do. Even when it's the worst decision we could make.

We will eventually create AI, but I'd rather we stick to VI, not because I fear AI but because I fear our own race and how it will abuse it.

[GodWood]

Icemix wrote...
You are trying to justify genocide of a peaceful race with wild guesses? They clearly show no signs of hostility towards organics and you want to exterminate them because they "may" or "could" turn on organics in the future? You, Lotion and GodWood should go check yourselfs because there is clearly something wrong with you.

Clearly you haven't been paying attention.

Contrary to how others have portrayed, we (or at least I) do not to destroy the geth purely because of what they 'might' do but based on what they have done. They're criminals, war criminals and for that they must be punished.

[somecthemes]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

[I'll agree, obviously, that we currently lack even close to enough understanding to develop one.

But to say at no point in the future? Really? Brave.

Lot of things humans said would never be done, that eventually were. I'd say the same would apply here. We'll get there. We always do. Even when it's the worst decision we could make.

I guess I should rephrase, developing a system for governing a automaton would be less likely to even be created, even as a prototype model. if the choatic elements were included. Like creating a waffle iron than on every thousand or so  breakfasts decides to snap at a finger. To me, that's what we like to call a soul, the little bit of us that doesn't work like a machine and seeks the irrational route. It helps us be inventive and creatively reach solutions, but on average leads people to drink intoxicants and act like nitwits more often.
To include that soul of man that leads people to amaze with their self sacrificing nature or to commit genocide, that would require additional coding that would bypass coded restictions without warning or the ability to be predicted. You can approximate randomness enough that I think most would think the output of a random timing timer to be truely random, but the jump from iterative logic loops to new objectives creation would be one that either just closely emulates the reactions to make it more sellable to humans, or is left out because people really wouldn't want a servant that without warning might attack.
It's not the technology that I think is the restriction, but rather the creation of a machine that could only called the greatest emulation of human randomness, or broken depending on your expected results.

[DJBare]

GodWood wrote...Clearly you haven't been paying attention.

Contrary to how others have portrayed, we (or at least I) do not to destroy the geth purely because of what they 'might' do but based on what they have done. They're criminals, war criminals and for that they must be punished.

Then the quarians should also be treated as war criminals, they attacked their creation without provocation.

[GodWood]

DJBare wrote...
Then the quarians should also be treated as war criminals, they attacked their creation without provocation.

The quarians who initiated the termination of the geth are already dead.

These geth are the same geth.

[BlueMagitek]

The Geth don't want anything to do with any race other than themselves (for the most part; killing them and occasionally selling weapons happen). Integrating into the Council system would be against their interests.

Now, as for whether or not the Geth should be exterminated; they did commit genocide (and it's not even "their ancestors", because the Geth rarely truly die), they did attack human colonies unprovoked (yes, yes, led by Saren), they have violently upheld their isolation for 300 years, and the vast majority of evidence of "good" (or Orthodox) Geth comes from a single source, Legion, which runs counter to all other evidence we've seen in ME 1 & 2. Do they deserve to be exterminated? Probably not, but they certainly aren't anywhere near angels.

I'm actually somewhat disturbed by the last point; why does everyone take Legion's word at truth? He's capable of lying or purposefully manipulating the truth for his own purposes.

[Lightweight Nate]

I don't think that the Geth would really want to be a part of the galactic community. They're completely self sufficient, and all they really want to do is exist in peace.

[DJBare]

GodWood wrote...

DJBare wrote...
Then the quarians should also be treated as war criminals, they attacked their creation without provocation.

The quarians who initiated the termination of the geth are already dead.

These geth are the same geth.

With one vote wanting to enslave the geth and another vote wanting to destroy the geth, yeah, I can see the geth have no reason to defend themselves.

[BatmanPWNS]

DJBare wrote...

GodWood wrote...

DJBare wrote...
Then the quarians should also be treated as war criminals, they attacked their creation without provocation.

The quarians who initiated the termination of the geth are already dead.

These geth are the same geth.

With one vote wanting to enslave the geth and another vote wanting to destroy the geth, yeah, I can see the geth have no reason to defend themselves.

Sure that would explain why all those innocent people that go to the veil end up dead. The geth aren't only defending themself. They are killing innocents to protect themself.

[GodWood]

DJBare wrote...
With one vote wanting to enslave the geth and another vote wanting to destroy the geth, yeah, I can see the geth have no reason to defend themselves.

(I assume you're referring to Xen and vas' Loghain)

Well those are to completely reasonable votes as these are potential punishments for the war-crimes they have commited.

And enslaved isn't really the right term. From what I gather Xen wants to revert them back to simple AIs and put them under quarian control.


A noble goal.

[Oldbones2]

Why wouldn't the Geth want to join the Citadel space? Legion admits they study us frequently. And as for their Dyson Sphere, it's going to take them tens of thousands of years to build, maybe more.  In that time they could study us in a more in depth manner and encourage trade.  two big wins for the.

Modifié par Oldbones2, 08 février 2012 - 08:00 .

[somecthemes]

Then the quarians should also be treated as war criminals, they attacked their creation without provocation.

Depends what you call provocation. The initial creation of the geth was with the intended purpose of developing a servant class, not to develop machines with wills of their own. If you could claim the life starts at the moment that one follows their own will as opposed to simply following commands, then the attack against the geth was a crime and their reciprocation just to be expected.
If you are like the Quarians in the story, then you believe that the geth aren't truely sentient and only react to stimuli like a lab specimen, and not as a living being, then the charges of war crimes could be disputed. Then it'd be like the theories about computer crashes leading into the millenium, a serious irritation, but you don't develop guilt from deleting a errant line of code or throwing out the televison when it no longer works. If those computers had in fact started lashing out and only .1% of the Earth's population survived, we'd not be charging those who defended themselves, just the manufacturer who'd made such a horrid product.

[WizenSlinky0]

What right do we have to judge anyone as a war criminal if they never agreed to a code of conduct in which to have the war covered by?

[DJBare]

BlueMagitek wrote...

The Geth don't want anything to do with any race other than themselves (for the most part; killing them and occasionally selling weapons happen). Integrating into the Council system would be against their interests.

Now, as for whether or not the Geth should be exterminated; they did commit genocide 

Genecide?
These are a sentient being that acted in self defence, they were children in a sense just becoming aware of their surroundings, suddenly everyone is out to shut you down, Tali admits herself that the quarians acted out of panic instead of trying to find another way, she says it's obvious they would eventually rebel, so would I if you forced me into slave labor, wouldn't you?

[GodWood]

DJBare wrote...
Genecide?
These are a sentient being that acted in self defence, they were children in a sense just becoming aware of their surroundings, suddenly everyone is out to shut you down, Tali admits herself that the quarians acted out of panic instead of trying to find another way, she says it's obvious they would eventually rebel, so would I if you forced me into slave labor, wouldn't you?

Yes, genocide.

When the war was clearly won the geth continued to slaughter billions and billions of inoccent non-combatants who didn't even have any involvement in the decision to terminate them.

[BlueMagitek]

DJBare wrote...

Genecide?
These are a sentient being that acted in self defence, they were children in a sense just becoming aware of their surroundings, suddenly everyone is out to shut you down, Tali admits herself that the quarians acted out of panic instead of trying to find another way, she says it's obvious they would eventually rebel, so would I if you forced me into slave labor, wouldn't you?

Show me where self defense involves killing billions of people, some of them not even quarians, and not all of the billions of people responsible.

[BatmanPWNS]

Here I'll give a nice example for people who support the Geth fully.

If you waked into a room full of Quarians. They wouldn't kill you for no reason.
If you walked into a room full of Geth. They will kill you without second thought.

[DJBare]

somecthemes wrote...
If you are like the Quarians in the story, then you believe that the geth aren't truely sentient and only react to stimuli like a lab specimen, and not as a living being, then the charges of war crimes could be disputed.

What is my reason for being, what is my purpose, do I have a soul? these were questions asked by the early geth and the reason the quarians went into a panic, they knew what was happening, not only did they realize they would be usng sentient beings for slave labor, they also knew the rest of the galaxy would most certainly shun them for it.

"We skirted the bounds of the law, we never actually broke the law"; they played with fire, I sypathize with present day quarians, but not their ancestors.

[nightcobra]

DJBare wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

The Geth don't want anything to do with any race other than themselves (for the most part; killing them and occasionally selling weapons happen). Integrating into the Council system would be against their interests.

Now, as for whether or not the Geth should be exterminated; they did commit genocide 

Genecide?
These are a sentient being that acted in self defence, they were children in a sense just becoming aware of their surroundings, suddenly everyone is out to shut you down, Tali admits herself that the quarians acted out of panic instead of trying to find another way, she says it's obvious they would eventually rebel, so would I if you forced me into slave labor, wouldn't you?

i don't think they rebelled because of the work they were made to do as legion actually says that it makes sense to treat the geth as machines because they know that at their core...they are machines.
my point of view is that the geth don't mind being treated as machines but they also want to be acknowledged as living beings worthy of existing in the eyes of their creators who in turn panicked at this notion and sought to *delete* the geth...and like any living being threatened, they retalliated in order to continue existing.