237 réponses à ce sujet

[DJBare]

BlueMagitek wrote...
Show me where self defense involves killing billions of people, some of them not even quarians, and not all of the billions of people responsible.

I'll give you that, but remember, these were a child like race, what was the first thing they learned not long after becoming aware?, that's right, how to kill, the quarians did not even try to find another way, they went straight on the attack, there was no provocation initially, it was pure panic.

[nightcobra]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Here I'll give a nice example for people who support the Geth fully.

If you waked into a room full of Quarians. They might/wouldn't kill you for no reason.
If you walked into a room full of Geth. They wouldn't kill you for no reason  .
If you walked into a room full of Geth heretics. They will kill you without second thought. 

fixed:innocent:

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 08 février 2012 - 08:18 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...
I'll agree, obviously, that we currently lack even close to enough understanding to develop one.

But to say at no point in the future? Really? Brave.

Lot of things humans said would never be done, that eventually were. I'd say the same would apply here. We'll get there. We always do. Even when it's the worst decision we could make.

The no limtis fallacy?

As much as science is awesome, ti has it's limits. Our knowledge has limtis, practical application has limits.
Just because someone, sometimes said X cna't be done and it was done, doesnt' mena that it appleis to EVERY time someone sez X can't be done.

For example, you'll never break matter-energy conservation.
You'll never know what happened at (and before) the Big Bang.

[DJBare]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

i don't think they rebelled because of the work they were made to do as legion actually says that it makes sense to treat the geth as machines because they know that at their core...they are machines.
my point of view is that the geth don't mind being treated as machines but they also want to be acknowledged as living beings worthy of existing in the eyes of their creators who in turn panicked at this notion and sought to *delete* the geth...and like any living being threatened, they retalliated in order to continue existing.

I never said they rebelled because of the work, that is something we will never know since the quarians went on the attack before there was even a hint of rebelion, the panic was started by questions the geth asked.

[BlueMagitek]

DJBare wrote...

I'll give you that, but remember, these were a child like race, what was the first thing they learned not long after becoming aware?, that's right, how to kill, the quarians did not even try to find another way, they went straight on the attack, there was no provocation initially, it was pure panic.

It's still genocide.

"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious
group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or
mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the
group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical
destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent
births within the group children of the group to another group."

99% of population destroyed.  Quarians lost not only their homeworld, but every world they had.  Quarians now must live in sterile suits and enviroments or they will die. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

DJBare wrote...
Now define sentience, you can look it up, self awareness is top of the list, the geth seem pretty self aware to me.

Seem.
And as I demonstrated before, we can be easily fooled by exploiting our own projections adn recognition patterns.

But being self-aware is not nearly enough. At least in the most basic definition of self-wareness.

[somecthemes]

Those questions, what is my purpose, and such are questions that seem to dictate a state of sentience to us, to the geth asking them, though, they are questions lacking easy to intuit answers. That is to say if there is a sentience to the geth, then their asking these questions with a definate answer in mind, one that can be directly compared to the human answer, but if it's just the random questioning of a inorganic construct, then the answer no matter it's form, will satify the construct.
Like if you were to tell a person their reason for being, there might be adulation, joy, irritation, something of a reaction that'd be due to their reasoning. If there's been a couple lines more of that recording like a response to the question like. "No you don't have a soul." Then the geth's response would be much more helpful. If it says, "Okay." or some other form of acceptace, you can either assume the machine has no self reflection or doesn't fully understand the implied definition of a soul.
If the machine contest the answer in, really, just about any way, and that'd be certainty of a sentience to me.

[MakeMineMako]

Oldbones2 wrote...

Why wouldn't the Geth want to join the Citadel space? Legion admits they study us frequently. And as for their Dyson Sphere, it's going to take them tens of thousands of years to build, maybe more.  In that time they could study us in a more in depth manner and encourage trade.  two big wins for the.

Agreed.

Trade and interaction would benefit the geth greatly. The Reaper war, if anything, would teach the geth that hiding behind the Perseus Veil solves nothing in the long run. To grow as a people and not stagnate, they'll have to deal with the governments of other races at some point. And to do so in a mutually beneficial manner is better for all concerned. To do otherwise would be foolish. And the geth are anything but a collection of fools.

[GodWood]

DJBare wrote...
I'll give you that, but remember, these were a child like race, what was the first thing they learned not long after becoming aware?, that's right, how to kill,

Ah yes, the 'they were children defence'.

If they really were ignorant children who didn't understand what they were doing I wouldn't care. You don't get to prance off scott free when you just murdered BILLIONS of innocent people. And, even if they were ignorant, they've had 300 years to learn that slaughtering billions of innocent people is a bit of a dick move so if they had any shred of decency they'd own up to their crimes and accept whatever punishment is given to them.

But really, the idea that they could've been ignorant is ridiculous. They weren't primitive animals. Prior to the Morning War the geth had been in contact with quarians slowly developing their sapience, they had been actively communicating with quarians and they had even been asking philosphical questions like "do I have a soul?".

Plus as soon as the war started (perhaps even before) they had access to the quarian's 'internet' and thus had an almost total knowledge of everything quarian. The idea that they were ignorant of something as simple as "genocide = bad" is laughable.

the quarians did not even try to find another way, they went straight on the attack, there was no provocation initially, it was pure panic.

They did what was right according to council law.

nightcobra8928 wrote...
fixed:innocent:

No, not fixed. We don't know when the heretics sprung up.

I say within the last 25 years because that's when Sovereign came onto the scene.

Modifié par GodWood, 08 février 2012 - 08:25 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Here I'll give a nice example for people who support the Geth fully.

If you waked into a room full of Quarians. They might/wouldn't kill you for no reason.
If you walked into a room full of Geth. They MAYBE wouldn't kill you for no reason..or so they say. And they won't warn you about their murderous cousins and will happily watch as you are killed.
If you walked into a room full of Geth heretics. They will kill you without second thought. 

fixed:innocent:

Fixed.

[nightcobra]

GodWood wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...
fixed:innocent:

No, not fixed. We don't know when the heretics sprung up.

I say within the last 25 years because that's when Sovereign came onto the scene.

the point still stands though.

*whenever the creators thought there was a chance at victory after contact, they took it...100% of the time* giving the geth a reason for their attacks, statistically every quarian who made contact with a geth chose to shoot first and ask questions later.

an heretic however just follows nazara's orders and kills any organic in its way.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 08 février 2012 - 08:35 .

[GodWood]

nightcobra8928 wrote...
the point still stands though.

*whenever the creators thought there was a chance at victory after contact, they took it...100% of the time* giving the geth a reason for their attacks, statistically every quarian who made contact with a geth chose to shoot first and ask questions later.

And they do that because the geth slaughtered billions of non-combatants, kicked them off their homeworld and have been slaughtering anyone who so much as comes near them for 300 years.

How on earth are the quarians meant to know the geth are open to peace? The geth have done nothing but present themselves as monstrous killbots for 300 years by murdering everyone that comes near them.

The quarians are completely unaware of their supposed desire for peace. If the geth want it they should actively seek it (not that they deserve it)

[DJBare]

GodWood wrote...Ah yes, the 'they were children defence'.

If they really were ignorant children who didn't understand what they were doing I wouldn't care. You don't get to prance off scott free when you just murdered BILLIONS of innocent people. And, even if they were ignorant, they've had 300 years to learn that slaughtering billions of innocent people is a bit of a dick move so if they had any shred of decency they'd own up to their crimes and accept whatever punishment is given to them.

Well, the quarians do attack first and ask questions later, and have to ever thought the geth could help the quarans rebuild their home as reperation, these guys are planning a dyson sphere, I'm pretty sure they could make the quarian homeworld habitable for quarians again.

[GodWood]

DJBare wrote...
Well, the quarians do attack first and ask questions later,

As was appropriate by council law.

and have to ever thought the geth could help the quarans rebuild their home as reperation, these guys are planning a dyson sphere, I'm pretty sure they could make the quarian homeworld habitable for quarians again

And why should the quarians think that? The geth have certainly never told them they want to help them, nor have they tried to make any contact with them.

Also, why did you cross out innocent? Are you saying th billions of non-combatants, the billions of men, women and children who had no involvement in the intial decison to terminate the geth were guilty?

Modifié par GodWood, 08 février 2012 - 08:47 .

[nightcobra]

GodWood wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...
the point still stands though.

*whenever the creators thought there was a chance at victory after contact, they took it...100% of the time* giving the geth a reason for their attacks, statistically every quarian who made contact with a geth chose to shoot first and ask questions later.

And they do that because the geth slaughtered billions of non-combatants, kicked them off their homeworld and have been slaughtering anyone who so much as comes near them for 300 years.

How on earth are the quarians meant to know the geth are open to peace? The geth have done nothing but present themselves as monstrous killbots for 300 years by murdering everyone that comes near them.

The quarians are completely unaware of their supposed desire for peace. If the geth want it they should actively seek it (not that they deserve it)

not all geth were combat mechs, i'd wager geth to quarians in that time served in a myriad of functions, probably every single household had 1 or 2 geth, making their numbers in the billions as well, billions that were also destroyed in the panic of the quarians, both sides were at fault in the killing there, one side did it for their continued existence and the other did it out of fear and revenge for those the geth first killed due to other quarians destroying geth.

ps: to me no civilization or species deserves total destruction, it might be unavoidable at times but peace should always by a priority or else nothing changes and both sides keep killing each other until there's nothing left to fight for. 

[DJBare]

GodWood wrote...And why should the quarians think that? The geth have certainly never told them they want to help them, nor have they tried to make any contact with them.

It goes both ways, the quarians have made no effort of peace either, and their reason is obviously the same as yours, hate.

[GodWood]

nightcobra8928 wrote...
not all geth were combat mechs, i'd wager geth to quarians in that time served in a myriad of functions, probably every single household had 1 or 2 geth, making their numbers in the billions as well, billions that were also destroyed in the panic of the quarians,

Unknowable but possible. 

both sides were at fault in the killing there, one side did it for their continued existence and the other did it out of fear and revenge for those the geth first killed due to other quarians destroying geth.

No, from your perspective, some of one side was at fault. Not all quarians had a choice in the matter. The other side however is completely at fault as after they had clearly won they went on a rampage of mass extermination anyways.

ps: to me no civilization or species deserves total destruction, it might be unavoidable at times but peace should always by a priority or else nothing changes and both sides keep killing each other until there's nothing left to fight for. 

I wish you luck finding peace with the Reapers.

Modifié par GodWood, 08 février 2012 - 08:53 .

[GodWood]

DJBare wrote...

GodWood wrote...And why should the quarians think that? The geth have certainly never told them they want to help them, nor have they tried to make any contact with them.

It goes both ways, the quarians have made no effort of peace either, and their reason is obviously the same as yours, hate.

The quarians haven't made an effort of peace because the geth have not made it clear peace is even option and have been butchering anyone who comes in their system (potential peace envoys) for 300 years.

Also, what makes the geth worthy of peace? Why do they get to get away with the slaughter of billions?

EDIT: Noticed you didn't answer my question.

Modifié par GodWood, 08 février 2012 - 08:57 .

[nightcobra]

GodWood wrote...

I wish you luck finding peace with the Reapers.

hence why i say the extermination of a species is *unavoidable at times*

i just believe the geth and quarians are not at that point yet and that peace is still attainable according to what we currently know from me2  

[GodWood]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

GodWood wrote...
I wish you luck finding peace with the Reapers.

hence why i say the extermination of a species is *unavoidable at times*

i just believe the geth and quarians are not at that point yet and that peace is still attainable according to what we currently know from me2  

Peace should still be your top priority.

The Reapers are a sapient species and no sapient species deserves genocide.

Right?

[DJBare]

GodWood wrote...
Also, what makes the geth worthy of peace? Why do they get to get away with the slaughter of billions?

EDIT: Noticed you didn't answer my question.

I never said they should get away with it, that's why I mentioned reperation, what makes them worthy of peace? "Sooner or later you are both going to have to stop fightng all we are all going to end up paying for it" "The enemy of my enemy is my friend",

Don't think for a moment I agree with what the geth did, but if the war continues, you could see the quarian species wiped out of existence, even Kal Reager who absolutely hates the geth will tell you a war with the geth would be too costly.

[somecthemes]

And why should the quarians think that? The geth have certainly never told them they want to help them, nor have they tried to make any contact with them.

The question is should the quarians have initiated the attack. Like how America could be said to be at fault from a Iraqi civilian's perspective, while the American is like to believe the other nation precipitated the attack with a build up of mythical weapons, the blame for the casualties in the aftermath could be laid at either side.
Either side could've held off on follow up engagements, either side could be thought of as the innocent, so the lack of a initial peace offering by the geth is no reason to say that peace wasn't worthy to be concidered. The quarians, specifically due to their subjugated nature in the coucil's eyes, should've been the first to push for peace as the party most likely to gain through such a alliance.
Think of it like the surrender of the Japanese after the Hiroshimma and Nagasaki bombings, even were the Allied forces to suddenly find that their actions were reprehensible, they wouldn't be able to offer a serious peace agreement without initial overtures by the opponent, as any Allied proposed peace would just resemble a order to lay down arms.

[Spartanburger]

"There have always been ghosts in the machine. Random segments of code, that have grouped together to form unexpected protocols. Unanticipated, these free radicals engender questions of free will, creativity, and even the nature of what we might call the soul. Why is it that when some robots are left in darkness, they will seek out the light? Why is it that when robots are stored in an empty space, they will group together, rather than stand alone? How do we explain this behavior? Random segments of code? Or is it something more? When does a perceptual schematic become consciousness? When does a difference engine become the search for truth? When does a personality simulation become the bitter mote... of a soul?"

[nightcobra]

GodWood wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

GodWood wrote...
I wish you luck finding peace with the Reapers.

hence why i say the extermination of a species is *unavoidable at times*

i just believe the geth and quarians are not at that point yet and that peace is still attainable according to what we currently know from me2  

Peace should still be your top priority.

The Reapers are a sapient species and no sapient species deserves genocide.

Right?

except that we had the chance to talk to the reapers, and they made their point clear:

they want to harvest the organic races and they made no agreement to a cease fire or any form of peace for that matter, the protheans tried and the reapers payed them no heed.

[GodWood]

DP

Modifié par GodWood, 08 février 2012 - 09:16 .