237 réponses à ce sujet

[GodWood]

DJBare wrote...
I never said they should get away with it, that's why I mentioned reperation, what makes them worthy of peace? "Sooner or later you are both going to have to stop fightng all we are all going to end up paying for it"

Yes, lets all hold hands, sing kumbiya and just forgive them for commiting mass extermination.

Besides, peace isn't possible when one side doesn't tell the other it's even a possibility.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend"

Not a relevant quote.

Don't think for a moment I agree with what the geth did, but if the war continues, you could see the quarian species wiped out of existence, even Kal Reager who absolutely hates the geth will tell you a war with the geth would be too costly.

That's why we go with Xen's plan

nightcobra8928 wrote...
except that we had the chance to talk to the reapers, and they made their point clear:

they want to harvest the organic races and they made no agreement to a cease fire or any form of peace for that matter, the protheans tried and the reapers payed them no heed.

You only talked to one Reaper.

You can't judge a species on the actions of one!

Modifié par GodWood, 08 février 2012 - 09:17 .

[DJBare]

GodWood wrote...You only talked to one Reaper.

You can't judge a species on the actions of one!

Huh no, you spoke with more than one, "each is a nation....."

[nightcobra]

GodWood wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...
except that we had the chance to talk to the reapers, and they made their point clear:

they want to harvest the organic races and they made no agreement to a cease fire or any form of peace for that matter, the protheans tried and the reapers payed them no heed.

You only talked to one Reaper.

You can't judge a species on the actions of one!

not just nazara, harbinger as well and all the other reapers that destroyed the protheans who actually tried the peace route as recorded by vigil.

[Spartanburger]

The Reapers are not an accurate example of machine sentience though.

In any group with multiple sentient minds in it, whether it be Humans, Quarians, Asari, or arguably Geth, you have people with different opinions.

Some humans hate aliens, some don't.
Some Quarians want peace with the Geth, some want war.
Some Geth chose to follow the Reapers as 'gods' (now doesn't that sound familiar to our own history?) while some chose to remain defensively neutral.

The Reapers don't have this deviation. They share  a single goal, a single purpose. In a sense, they don't express free will. They may have it, but they don't express it.

Modifié par Spartanburger, 08 février 2012 - 09:22 .

[somecthemes]

they want to harvest the organic races and they made no agreement to a cease fire or any form of peace for that matter, the protheans tried and the reapers payed them no heed.

A perfect example, if the Reapers were to suddenly, now at the height of their power as they begin their assualt on the galaxy, offer a peace agreement with humans, the citadel, anyone, then it would be taken as a sign that the Reaper's fully believe in their combat superiority and that they are just making the offer in a effort to divide whatever alliances were formed against them.
As the aggrieved party, though, if the council were to petition a peace agreement and the Reaper's amazingly enough agreed, then that might lead to a peaceful coexistance.
So I'd say that the geth couldn't have arranged such a peace until the quarians were beaten back far enought that the option of victory seemed impossible and they were willing to submit to peaceful negotiations to keep their species from being erradicated.

[GodWood]

DJBare wrote...
Huh no, you spoke with more than one, "each is a nation....."

I orignally took that as a metaphor to mean they have no hierarchy or leaders. Each is completely independant.

However with the revelation that "reapers are made of people's goo" a single Reaper is comprised of a nation.

Either way, that's still one Reaper. (two I guess if you include Harbinger, but I wouldn't)

nightcobra8928 wrote...
not just nazara, harbinger as well and all the other reapers that destroyed the protheans who actually tried the peace route as recorded by vigil.

The same can be said for the geth and the rachni.

Is peace only an option when you actually meet a peaceful member of their species? Do you advocate the belief guilty until proven innocent?

[nightcobra]

GodWood wrote...

DJBare wrote...
Huh no, you spoke with more than one, "each is a nation....."

I orignally took that as a metaphor to mean they have no hierarchy or leaders. Each is completely independant.

However with the revelation that "reapers are made of people's goo" a single Reaper is comprised of a nation.

Either way, that's still one Reaper. (two I guess if you include Harbinger, but I wouldn't)

nightcobra8928 wrote...
not just nazara, harbinger as well and all the other reapers that destroyed the protheans who actually tried the peace route as recorded by vigil.

The same can be said for the geth and the rachni.

Is peace only an option when you actually meet a peaceful member of their species? Do you advocate the belief guilty until proven innocent?

i wouldn't really put the geth/rachni and the reapers in the same spot.
if i could talk to a reaper and make them open for diplomacy then i would as it would save a lot of lives but from what we know and conversed with them they are not open to conversations and have systematicallly wiped out civilizations for eons and will continue to do that cycle as they already explained.
the true geth (legion can represent all of the geth's race) and rachni (the queen is the representative of her race) however actually try to communicate and attain a peaceful solution.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 08 février 2012 - 09:39 .

[GodWood]

if i could talk to a reaper and make them open for diplomacy then i would as it would save a lot of lives but from what we know and conversed with them they are not open to conversations and have systematicallly wiped out civilizations for eons and will continue to do that cycle as they already explained.

This is amusing and I'm sure you now have an enlightening insight into the quarian perspective.

nightcobra8928 wrote...
the true geth and rachni however actually try to communicate and attain a peaceful solution.

No they don't.

The twoo geth have never actively attempted to communicate and make peace and the rachni queen was the first rachni to ever offer peace and that's because she didn't really have any other options.

Modifié par GodWood, 08 février 2012 - 09:41 .

[DJBare]

GodWood wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...
the true geth and rachni however actually try to communicate and attain a peaceful solution.

No they don't.

The twoo geth have never actively attempted to communicate and make peace and the rachni queen was the first to rachni to ever offer peace and that's because she didn't really have any other options.

The geth started to look for a peaceful solution around the time of ME1, Legion is the geth equivalent of an emissary.

[GodWood]

DJBare wrote...
The geth started to look for a peaceful solution around the time of ME1, Legion is the geth equivalent of an emissary.

False. Legion's only goal was to look for Shepard.

[WizenSlinky0]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...
I'll agree, obviously, that we currently lack even close to enough understanding to develop one.

But to say at no point in the future? Really? Brave.

Lot of things humans said would never be done, that eventually were. I'd say the same would apply here. We'll get there. We always do. Even when it's the worst decision we could make.

The no limtis fallacy?

As much as science is awesome, ti has it's limits. Our knowledge has limtis, practical application has limits.
Just because someone, sometimes said X cna't be done and it was done, doesnt' mena that it appleis to EVERY time someone sez X can't be done.

For example, you'll never break matter-energy conservation.
You'll never know what happened at (and before) the Big Bang.

I still would not use never. A scientific law like the law of conservation of energy is only applicable in situations resembling those we have already observed. While I would certainly highly doubt upon the fact we might disprove established laws, I don't believe myself foolish enough to declare never.

[nightcobra]

GodWood wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...
the true geth and rachni however actually try to communicate and attain a peaceful solution.

No they don't.

The twoo geth have never actively attempted to communicate and make peace and the rachni queen was the first to rachni to ever offer peace and that's because she didn't really have any other options.

the rachni were never a violent race by nature, they got indocrinated by the reapers as explained by the queen herself, i'm inclined to believe her as why else would she get to the trouble of sending a messenger to shepard and explain the situation along with the promise of the rachni being allies.

the geth to me are a bit like the asari in the sense that they don't have the same perception of time as the quarians due to them being synthetic and technically can't die of old age. 300 hundred years of isolation on the perspective of immortality is not really that long a time.

[DJBare]

GodWood wrote...

DJBare wrote...
The geth started to look for a peaceful solution around the time of ME1, Legion is the geth equivalent of an emissary.

False. Legion's only goal was to look for Shepard.

I'd say you are a completionist, so I figure you must have gone through all Legions dialogue, but I think I'm going to stop this argument here, I don't know if he is lying and you don't know if he is telling the truth.

[GodWood]

nightcobra8928 wrote...
the rachni were never a violent race by nature, they got indocrinated by the reapers as explained by the queen herself, i'm inclined to believe her as why else would she get to the trouble of sending a messenger to shepard and explain the situation along with the promise of the rachni being allies.

Perspective bro.

YOU as the player can know the rachni are nice (supposedly) however how is anyone else supposed to know this? The only rachni they encountered were hostile.

If you want consistency you should also be actively looking for a peaceful Reaper.

the geth to me are a bit like the asari in the sense that they don't have the same perception of time as the quarians due to them being synthetic and technically can't die of old age. 300 hundred years of isolation on the perspective of immortality is not really that long a time.

True.

But this really doesn't invalidate what I said norr does it support what you said.

[Poison_Berrie]

GodWood wrote...

When the war was clearly won the geth continued to slaughter billions and billions of inoccent non-combatants who didn't even have any involvement in the decision to terminate them.

Where do you get this piece of information. 
I've never seen a statement where at some point the Quarians are stated to have surrendered, admitted defeat and asked to leave, to which the Geth continued fighting.
Legion mentioned that whenever the chance of victory was assured or heavily in their favor the Quarians took it over other solutions.

I'm not saying the Geth were not guilty of genocide, they killed a huge part of the Quarians. But it seems that both ended up fighting for their own existence and going to terrible lengths to get it.
But since the Quarians lost they are forgiven and since the Geth won they must be destroyed...

[nightcobra]

GodWood wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...
the rachni were never a violent race by nature, they got indocrinated by the reapers as explained by the queen herself, i'm inclined to believe her as why else would she get to the trouble of sending a messenger to shepard and explain the situation along with the promise of the rachni being allies.

Perspective bro.

YOU as the player can know the rachni are nice (supposedly) however how is anyone else supposed to know this? The only rachni they encountered were hostile.

If you want consistency you should also be actively looking for a peaceful Reaper.

the geth to me are a bit like the asari in the sense that they don't have the same perception of time as the quarians due to them being synthetic and technically can't die of old age. 300 hundred years of isolation on the perspective of immortality is not really that long a time.

True.

But this really doesn't invalidate what I said norr does it support what you said.

consistency...finding a peaceful reaper wouldn't change that they would still invade as they are independent.

the geth however are a hive mind and legion serves as a representative of the whole race, the rachni queen is the only one left in existence and it also serves as the representative of the whole race. achieving a peaceful solution with these 2 races have a far better chance than creating a peaceful solution with the reapers with just one being peaceful while the rest were still out to get us.


edit: gotta go, still gonna try and make peace around the galaxy. if that's not possible i'll just have to shoot the ones against peace (they want it, they got it)

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 08 février 2012 - 10:08 .

[GodWood]

Poison_Berrie wrote...
Where do you get this piece of information.

It's a logical assumption.

I'm sure you can piece it together without me having to explain.

Legion mentioned that whenever the chance of victory was assured or heavily in their favor the Quarians took it over other solutions.

Because the geth have never shown there are any other options.

I'm not saying the Geth were not guilty of genocide, they killed a huge part of the Quarians.

They killed 99%, that's more then just 'a huge part'. 

But it seems that both ended up fighting for their own existence and going to terrible lengths to get it.
But since the Quarians lost they are forgiven and since the Geth won they must be destroyed...

Who won and who lost doesn't really matter. If you regard the quarians as the 'bad guys' for attacking then you need not worry as the ones who did it are already dead.

The geth however, are not.

[General User]

Saphra Deden wrote...
[The Geth] are a child in a grown-up body.

That's dangerous.

Worse yet, they've got a car, and a gun.

That's right. 

The geth have demonstrated both a decided lack of sophistication when it comes to other races and an inability to understand or predict the consequences of their own actions. 

Combine that with their propensity for extreme violence, and their posessing the means to do such things again and what you have is a Geth Collective that is a threat to any and all around them. 

They should not be trusted in any meaningful way.

Modifié par General User, 08 février 2012 - 10:28 .

[Butcher_of_Torfan]

Its really hard to tell either way if the Geth are truly "alive"  or just putting up a convincing appearance of it.  What you can tell is that the Geth are very dangerous.   Geth dont operate on emotion, and i doubt they have any morals that we as organic beings would recognize, as I'm sure any asimovian laws of robotics that the quarians may have initially had in place are long since removed from their operating programing.  Geth dont factor in emotion, morality, or concepts like "life is sacred"  into their thought process.   They build consensus based on known facts, and the estimated chances of theoretical scenarios.  Lets look at what consensus's they have built in the past. 

The consensus during the morning war that the optimal action for the Geth was to  initiate self defense against the Quarians.

The consensus that the optimal resolution of the morning war was to drive the quarians from the Veil, and reduce their population to the point where genetic diversity could be maintained, but further hostilities were impossible for several hundred years. 

The consensus that the cost/benefit of contact with the rest of the galaxy was less optimal than that of developing in isolation.

The consensus that eliminating all organics entering the veil would provide sufficient deterrence for council races to avoid that region of space and leave the geth unmolested.

The consensus that the cost/benefit and likelihood of success of fighting the Reapers was better than hiding in dark space or journeying to another galaxy.

According to legion, IF it's telling the truth, Geth have also reached the consensus that "life should self determinate"   AT THIS TIME.  So far the Geth have been operating in accordance with this live and let live consensus.  However,  based on future events and predictions, this could change at any time.

If council races begin studying and adopting Reaper Tech(which bioware has consistently dipicted as a dangerous Devil's bargain) in the aftermath of ME3,  or if council simply begins more and more advanced and powerfull as time goes by, Geth could build the consensus that the danger outweighs the benifit of allowing life to self determine.   At this point, they'll begine weighing the risk, cost, benefit, and likelyhood of success of eliminating that threat versus hiding or leaving. 

As machines, they'll more than likely be doing this constantly after the reapers are dealt with anyway.   The second that the Geth's computations decide that the cost/benefit/risk of having emotional, unpredictable, illogical organics in a galaxy wide empire is less than optimal, they'll take some sort of action.

They may dissapear and hide in their dyson sphere, they could shut down the relays once they develope the tech to do so, they could unleash a plague, go to war, or simply go into darkspace.

The bottom line is, whatever they do in the future isnt going to be guided by morality, just computations of what is best for the Geth, and only the Geth

Modifié par Butcher_of_Torfan, 08 février 2012 - 10:40 .

[Poison_Berrie]

GodWood wrote...

It's a logical assumption.

I'm sure you can piece it together without me having to explain.

Not really. 
I don't seem to have the same source of information you have. All I have on the Morning War is that the Quarians decided to scrap all Geth and the Geth responded by defending themselves, which devolved in a full blown war, which the Quarians lost and the surviving Quarians finally fled. 
Nowhere is there any data on how both side fought, what weapons and tactics they deployed, whether either side tried diplomacy or if at one point one side had a clear upperhand and decided to press on 

Because the geth have never shown there are any other options.

We don't really have any information on that.
Perhaps they did, perhaps they didn't. The Quarians didn't seem to have done so, if going by the admirality.

The geth however, are not.

Though one has to wonder how one goes about making them pay.
Do you do it on an program to program basis, where you delete all runtimes who where created before or during the war?
Or do you hold everyone accountable since they are in some manner a single entity?
Does that really work on the Geth?
Perhaps it would at this point be best to have them give reperations, give back worlds, give them resources, etc...

[Peer of the Empire]

andy69156915 wrote...

I was thinking earlier to myself, the Geth could join the rest of galactic society. Once they show that they aren't generally war-like and actually like and prefer peace, and especially if they help defeat the Reapers, they'll probably be offered at least an embassy. Now, for that, the Geth are going to have to make a lot more prototypes like Legion, as that it what it will take for Geth to be smart enough and able to communicate to be part of Council space. Once offered, I'm sure the Geth would be happy to accept, they find organics interesting, and this would be a fascinating experience for them.

If anything embassies should be offered because they are warlike.  To have a galactic community excluding invites misunderstanding and resentment.

This is not quite the same as inviting them into your neighborhood.  An unpleasant people need not be welcomed, however, their representatives should be available so that our government can talk to their government and clear up problems before they become wars.

Also, we should not be encouraging effeminate rule following and yes manning in our leaders, so the general principle is off.  Other cultures' leaders will probably agree and will chafe under such artificial and unnatural requirements.

Modifié par Peer of the Empire, 08 février 2012 - 11:12 .

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

WizenSlinky0 wrote...
I'll agree, obviously, that we currently lack even close to enough understanding to develop one.

But to say at no point in the future? Really? Brave.

Lot of things humans said would never be done, that eventually were. I'd say the same would apply here. We'll get there. We always do. Even when it's the worst decision we could make.

The no limtis fallacy?

As much as science is awesome, ti has it's limits. Our knowledge has limtis, practical application has limits.
Just because someone, sometimes said X cna't be done and it was done, doesnt' mena that it appleis to EVERY time someone sez X can't be done.

For example, you'll never break matter-energy conservation.
You'll never know what happened at (and before) the Big Bang.

Science may have limits, but we don't know where these are. I suppose you mean conversion, not conservation. Anyway, it may not seem possible right now. But we only understand so much about the universe. Future generations may understand more. Just saying. You can be the greatest visionary or scientist of your age. Some college student in the future will still beat you in knowledge just by reading a book about something that you cannot even imagine right now.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 09 février 2012 - 12:50 .

[AlexXIV]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

All AI must be destroyed. All of it. No exceptions...

Used any smartphones or computers lately?

No. They are evil. You think they serve you but actually they enslave you.

[Slayer299]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

The Geth are most at home when they are all networked together, why would they suddenly decide that mobile platforms with a few hundred Geth on it would be superior to being networked as software. Legion is an experiment to enable him to achieve his goal(s) and a successful one, but they don't see themselves as individuals, but as part of the Geth whole. Individual platforms (such as Legion) run contrary to this entirely and it would take a massive change in their programming to alter it so much.

The point was that even the creation of an independent platform was an evolution, as they had never attempted something like that before.

Seeing yourself as one part of a whole is also part of many human doctrines as well. Just because something doesn't express individuality doesn't mean it isn't an individual. The Geth take consensus and have differing opinions, despite supposedly having the exact same coding and information when plugged into eachother.

They are evolving.

I think you are missing the point, perhaps deliberately, but the Geth *don't* see themselves as individuals and *that* is this point. It's not about them not expressing themselves individually or having independent thoughts, they see no difference between Geth platfrom #1873 and #6,783,924 other than different perspective when dealing with solving a problem.

Again, I reiterate, Legion is not an evolution, he is an experiment to achieve a short-term goal. In the end all of the platforms Legion houses will go back to the Geth.