29 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr Wuppet]

Hi; new to the forums and only recently purchased NwN2 + MotB + SoZ Platinum bundle from Steam (version 1.23, no add-ons or packs).

Whilst I'm not very far into the OC, I'm enjoying the story and gameplay much more than NwN1's, but I have more than a few gripes with NwN2, one of them being the information displayed on the character sheet.

I am not that experienced with D&D rules, but the attack bonus and damage values displayed seem wrong more than half the time!

Currently a 4 Bard / 3 Ranger / 1 Arcane Archer, so my BAB should be 7; this is right on the character sheet.

With a Dex modifier of +5 (including bonuses from equipment), an Elven Court Bow (+3 to attack, +3 mighty), Weapon Focus (longbow), Enhance Arrow +1, and Inspire Courage active, my total attack bonus should be 7+5+3+1+1+1=+18/+13; this is usually right on the character sheet (occasionally I have to unequip and then re-equip the bow for the sheet to update).

With Rapid Shot enabled (I don't have Improved Rapid Shot yet), my attacks are reduced to +16/+11 (I assume my extra attack is made at +16, or is it made at +18?).

Now onto damage...

With a Str modifier of +2, basic arrows and Elven Court Bow equipped, and Inspire Courage active, the damage displayed is as follows:
Damage: 1-8 +3 (Critical: 20 / x3)
+1 Bludgeoning damage (I assume the +1 Bludgeoning damage from Inspire Courage applies to ranged weapons such as bows as well as melee weapons?)

Now I notice 2 things here.  1) Does NwN2 treat bows as 2-handed melee weapons, and is this applied in actual combat, not just on the character sheet?  The +3 should be limited by my Str mod to +2 if we are going by the manual and in-game descriptions...  2) Where is the additional +1 damage from Enhance Arrow +1 feat?  Or is the +3 damage added to 1-8 the sum of +2 mighty damage and +1 Enhance Arrow damage?  This seems unlikely to me though, because on equipping a Heavy Crossbow with no mighty property, the damage is 1-10 +3 (Critical: 19-20 / x2).

When I equip Arrows+1, an additional +1 Piercing damage is displayed, but my attack bonus is unaffected.  Do arrows +? give bonuses to damage and attack (and the attack does not stack with Enhance Arrow AA feat), or do they only increase damage?  Does the piercing damage stack with Enhance Arrow AA feat?  Essentially, is there any point in equipping arrows with +? bonuses equal to or less than the bonuses from Enhance Arrow AA feat?

I'd really appreciate your help; sorry for the essay!

P.S.  The attack bonuses for Khelgar, Neeshka and Qara appear as 1 higher on the character sheets than what I calculate they should be; I also tested Khelgar's unarmed damage and the attack bonus shown in the combat log matches my expectations, but is, again, 1 less than what appears on the character sheet.  Elanee's attack bonus can jump 2 points higher on unequipping and re-equipping her equipment too!  Grr...

Modifié par Timothar, 08 février 2012 - 06:17 .

[The Fred]

Yeah, it's a bit flaky.

However, I don't think your AA +1 should stack with the Courtbow's +3 (NWN2 handles enhancement bonuses on ranged weapons differently but the net result should be that one on a launcher and one on ammo don't stack).

The Bludgeoning damage is a symptom of the way bonus damage effects work in NWN(2). It should apply to all attacks. I think you may be correct in thinking the +1 damage from enhance arrow is included in that +3 - at least, that would make sense.

Also, I think +1 arrows do indeed only add 1 damage - if they add AB, well it shouldn't stack anyway. The thing is that ranged weapons don't actually get enhancement bonuses in NWN(2), they just get AB bonuses. So that confuses things a bit.

[painofdungeoneternal]

When testing or reviewing things, don't read the character sheet, it lies. Just glossing over you post really but hopefully my comments help you.

Partially bonuses depend on the opponent, partially its because the bugs fixed in the game did not really focus on this, more effort was spent on the actual bug in use and not the preview. Basically focus on the combat log for any info you need. Often the sheet shows all bonuses and does not obey stacking rules.

( there are a LOT of rules, druids for example get a +1 to combat when in natural environment which does not show up on the sheet at all. )

There are some equip/unequip bugs, those can be fixed with proper scripting. Quite a few PW's and even kaedrins class pack address those to a large degree.

You also can look up rules on nwn2wiki

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 08 février 2012 - 06:04 .

[Mr Ordinary]

Timothar wrote...

(I assume my extra attack is made at +16, or is it made at +18?

Your extra attack will be made at your current highest AB, which is +16.

I assume the +1 Bludgeoning damage from Inspire Courage applies to ranged weapons such as bows as well as melee weapons?

You assume correctly.

Does NwN2 treat bows as 2-handed melee weapons, and is this applied in actual combat, not just on the character sheet?

Bows are still treated as ranged weapons in melee and, as such, you get a -4 AB modifier unless you take the Point Blank Shot feat.

is the +3 damage added to 1-8 the sum of +2 mighty damage and +1 Enhance Arrow damage?

Yes. Because the base damage type of bows and crossbows is piercing, it will add the ammo damage enhancement to the modifier on the base damage, rather than list a "+1 piercing damage" separately.

Do arrows +? give bonuses to damage and attack (and the attack does not stack with Enhance Arrow AA feat), or do they only increase damage?

Enhancements on ammo adds the enhancement modifier to the damage and the AB. Whichever is the greater of your Enhance Arrow feat or the ammo enhancement will be used to calculate the extra damage and AB.

Does the piercing damage stack with Enhance Arrow AA feat?  Essentially, is there any point in equipping arrows with +? bonuses equal to or less than the bonuses from Enhance Arrow AA feat?

No, see above. Using arrows with bonus damage (i.e. Arrows of Piercing) will stack, however.

Modifié par Mr Ordinary, 08 février 2012 - 06:27 .

[Mr Wuppet]

Timothar wrote...

P.S.  The attack bonuses for Khelgar, Neeshka and Qara appear as 1 higher on the character sheets than what I calculate they should be; I also tested Khelgar's unarmed damage and the attack bonus shown in the combat log matches my expectations, but is, again, 1 less than what appears on the character sheet.  Elanee's attack bonus can jump 2 points higher on unequipping and re-equipping her equipment too!  Grr...

I'm such an idiot; I forgot to take into account my Natural Leader background feat!  Still, doesn't explain the unequip/equip bug.

[painofdungeoneternal]

repeating this

There are some equip/unequip bugs, those can be fixed with proper scripting. Quite a few PW's and even kaedrins class pack address those to a large degree.

[Mr Wuppet]

Mr Ordinary wrote...

Bows are still treated as ranged weapons in melee and, as such, you get a -4 AB modifier unless you take the Point Blank Shot feat.

is the +3 damage added to 1-8 the sum of +2 mighty damage and +1 Enhance Arrow damage?

Yes. Because the base damage type of bows and crossbows is piercing, it will add the ammo damage enhancement to the modifier on the base damage, rather than list a "+1 piercing damage" separately.

I took Point Blank Shot btw.

Why then, is the damage listed for a heavy crossbow with no mighty property 1-10 +3 (Critical: 19-20 / x2), when my Str mod is +2?  If I'm using plain bolts, Enhance Arrow AA feat shouldn't come into play; the expected damage for a plain heavy crossbow ought to be 1-10 +0 (Critical: 19-20 / x2), right?  I think NwN2, at least on the character sheet, is treating all crossbows and bows as 2-handed weapons, and multiplying any Str mod by 1.5.  I used a potion of Bull's Strength to increase my Str mod to +4 and the damage for both an Elven Court Bow (+3 mighty) and a Duskwood Bow (+6 mighty) was the same at 1-8 +6 (Critical: 20 / x3).

So it appears Mighty and Enhance Arrow AA feat damage bonus aren't being considered by the character sheet, but Enhance Arrow AA feat attack bonus is shown.  I do hope that the damage bonus is taken into account in actual gameplay, otherwise it's rather pointless playing an Arcane Archer.

I would like to thank you very much for all your other answers; things make a lot more sense now!  Cheers!

[Mr Wuppet]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

repeating this

There are some equip/unequip bugs, those can be fixed with proper scripting. Quite a few PW's and even kaedrins class pack address those to a large degree.

If I downloaded Kaedrin's pack, would it affect my OC save game in any negative way?  Would the fixes take effect immediately, or would I have to start the campaign again to receive any benefits?

[The Fred]

Should work right away - there may be issues with your character file though, I'm not sure exactly how many existing things Kaedrin changed and how.

[painofdungeoneternal]

It only becomes a problem if your character bic uses a feature kaedrin added ( such as a feat or skill or deity, or whatever really ), and then the supporting stuff is removed, it causes the game to crash. Basically if you decide to remove kaedrins content, go ahead and remove any characters created with it, or just zap all your characters. It only can be a problem upon removal basically.

( not really a problem with kaedrins, but a problem with the engine, but his content is probably the most stable implementation with far more end user testing and submitted fixes with the OC than any other project, it won't affect things negatively, or at least the odds are much better for you with his content than without. )

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 08 février 2012 - 08:37 .

[Mr Wuppet]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

It only becomes a problem if your character bic uses a feature kaedrin added ( such as a feat or skill or deity, or whatever really ), and then the supporting stuff is removed, it causes the game to crash. Basically if you decide to remove kaedrins content, go ahead and remove any characters created with it, or just zap all your characters. It only can be a problem upon removal basically.

( not really a problem with kaedrins, but a problem with the engine, but his content is probably the most stable implementation with far more end user testing and submitted fixes with the OC than any other project, it won't affect things negatively, or at least the odds are much better for you with his content than without. )

Hey, I installed Kaedrin's as you suggested, but I noticed something on reloading some saves; Elanee's health seems to deteriorate on each reload.  Also, the effect of the Harvest Cup Cure Light Wounds ability does not last on reload.  Why is this?  I get a message along the lines of "Someone damages someone" and "Elanee damaged (8 positive energy).

I read that this is a bug with Kaedrin's Pack in a forum and one user suggested turning the con fix off in cmi_options.  However, whenever I click on this file, Windows doesn't recognise the file type.  I'm no computer whiz, so could anyone suggest step-by-step the solution?

Modifié par Timothar, 09 février 2012 - 08:50 .

[The Fred]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...
It only becomes a problem if your character bic uses a feature kaedrin added... It only can be a problem upon removal basically.

Yeah, I just don't remember exactly what Kaedrin did for everything and there was the possibility he'd replaced an existing feat somewhere or something. I didn't think he had but there you go.
The cmi_options file should be editable with just something like Notepad.

[painofdungeoneternal]

open it with notepad, it's just a text file. Let me see if kaedrin has an idea of the issue here as i don't see that in my copy of his latest version.

[Mr Wuppet]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

open it with notepad, it's just a text file. Let me see if kaedrin has an idea of the issue here as i don't see that in my copy of his latest version.

I should also add, that in my save game, I have Neeshka and Elanee equipped with +Con items.  Also, regarding the Harvest Cup, I have the same problem with casting healing spells.  After I've healed my party, and saved, then reloaded this save, the health has NOT been healed.

[Arkalezth]

Kaedrin made some change to how +CON items work. I don't remember how it was, but it must be related.

[woofgirl]

The Fred wrote...

Should work right away - there may be issues with your character file though, I'm not sure exactly how many existing things Kaedrin changed and how.

That's the problem. I've tried using Kaedrin's and TonyK's mods and have found they tend to screw up a game I already know how to play. I've been playing NWN2 (and NWN before that) since it was released and have still not explored all the nuances and features of the game. I can't imagine getting so jaded that I need another dozen barely different base and prestige classes just to keep my interest. My fun comes from new modules created by the community and they are still coming along frequently.

Be aware that my opinion is a minority one, but my suggestion is to learn how to play the fully patched game before you mess with mods that change its basic structure. Please understand that I mean no disparagement of the efforts of those worthy gentlemen, but I've tried those mods and they're just not for me.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Actually the con fix repairs something most don't notice, the damage is meant to remove the extra hit points you can get above your max hit points. The main issue is it seems something is being taken away when it's just judiciously putting things back to where they should be in a way that is noticeable. I know it's something which was just added, which is likely why there is an issue, hopefully he pops in himself -- generally when you've got a problem like this he is quick to resolve it.

Quite a few things in the game are just broken though, and kaedrin fixes an amazing number of them. Sure there are issues, but compared to with and without, you just have fewer bugs overall with what he's done. But it is a matter of taste, which is why he's added the options.

Frankly the extra classes and features he's done are a distraction to what he brings to the table, just stick to the pure base clases and his content is well worthwhile just for the bug fixes. The fixes to pure druids alone which he's done make an unplayable class well worth considering.

[Arkalezth]

Tony K's just adds some options to the AI, by no means it's going to make you "re-learn" the game. On the other hand, if you don't like to micromanage a party, it makes your life much easier.

Kaedrin's site lists the changes. I agree that it's generally worth using if only for the fixes, even if you don't use any of the extra content, but the game is also perfectly playable without it, Tony K's on the other hand is a must-have in single player IMO.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

The fixes to pure druids alone which he's done make an unplayable class well worth considering.

Huh? Unplayable class?

[painofdungeoneternal]

You never use shifting i take it.

[Arkalezth]

Yeah, I know of the problems with shifting, but that doesn't mean that the druid class, or even a shifter, is unplayable. You may not be as god-like as other classes at high levels, but there's a huge gap between that and "unplayable".

Anyway, I don't want to go too off-topic here. My point is just that druids may be better or worse than other classes, but they're a perfectly playable class. And among the most powerful at low levels, actually.

[Mr Wuppet]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

You never use shifting i take it.

I have to admit, Wildshape for the Druid absolutely sucks, it's far better keeping my druid companion unshifted I've found.  If Kaedrin has improved this, I better have a play around!

So let me get this straight; Kaedrin has fixed it so that a character's maximum health is not increased by +Con items?  Does this mean characters can only achieve a total health of (base health + Con modifier*level additional health temporarily through spells such as Bear's Endurance?

This wouldn't be so much a problem, but the +Con item I gave to Elanee is only +1, and it doesn't increase her Con modifier, yet equipping and unequipping it constantly reduces her health by 8 points each time (she's level 8 at the moment).  That's surely not how Kaedrin intended to fix any sort of exploit?

Modifié par Timothar, 09 février 2012 - 11:38 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

They can get the proper health amount, it should be exactly based on the con bonus in addition to their hit points they get from their chosen class. Less or more is a bug, and he is trying to get it so it's exactly right. Most folks in SP just see damage though and complain, even if it's working correctly, so from what i heard he was removing this feature entirely, or making it an option.

Example of the issue is if you have a +4 con ring, and are level 2, it gives you 8 health per the rules. Cast bears endurance and you get 8 extra in addition because it adds it twice. Similar things when you equip and unequip. In my PW i had skilled players ending up with this going in the thousands, but even then i'd find myself with hit points much higher than they should be even with my own character. I actually have a script test case that demonstrates this in effect.

If you get a +stat ring, and it's prime casting stat, you will see your spell slots increasing each time you equip that ring quite often. It's the same underlying issue, but the symptoms vary based on how it's giving the benefits of higher scores.

Kaedrins looks at your con, at your health and tries to put it not where it's less, but exactly as it would be if the rules were working correctly.

These are core issues with the game unfortunately.

But you have to weigh it against the fact that when you rest with 3 hit points left, and that bears endurance wears off you die. This really sucks. From what i understand this is fixed in his latest version. ( Note i am a fellow developer and i re-implement his code into my code base, and sometimes my version works better or worse than what he has done )

It's always going to be tradeoffs, nothing is perfect in a game this complex, and you are going to have things better and worse. While there are known issues, eventually things end up being less buggy than the official unmodified content, and kaedrins easily does this. Combine this with his responding quickly to users having issues, which is something that cannot be said for the vanilla game developers who aren't going to fix anything else.

[Mr Wuppet]

I'm sorry, I just don't understand your last post. As far as I'm aware, Bear's Endurance doesn't stack with +Con items, either with Kaedrin's pack or without. So you see, I don't see the problem that Kaedrin was trying to fix (i.e. his solution is more problematic than any bug/exploit in the first place, at least to someone who isn't deliberately trying to exploit anything).

I think I'm going to remove his pack until this gets fixed in his next update hopefully. Here's hoping my game won't crash now!

[painofdungeoneternal]

It actually does without in certain situations - he is fixing a legitimate problem, just probably not something you are noticing / or you might not understand how the rules exactly work.

It shouldn't if you didn't level up and take something custom he added. If it does remove the last saved bic file from your local vault and you will be back to how you were before.

[Dann-J]

Timothar wrote...

Why then, is the damage listed for a heavy crossbow with no mighty property 1-10 +3 (Critical: 19-20 / x2), when my Str mod is +2? 

The character sheet lists damage bonuses as if everything was a melee weapon. Since ranged weapons can't be used with shields or off-hand weapons, the character sheet  thinks they are two-handed weapons that do 1.5x strength damage.

Strength bonuses will only come into play with the Mighty property, and even then the maximum strength bonus will be capped by the Mighty bonus (where your strength bonus equals or excedes the Mighty value). Don't let the character sheet tell you otherwise.

In short - the character sheet is doubly-untruthful with combusting trousers.