158 réponses à ce sujet

[SirEtchwart]

What I don't understand is WHY anyone would want to save Cerberus. They sort of flail at their plans and hope it works (spoilers, it doesn't), and they're flat-out racist.

[Ensorcelled Cat]

To the main question of the thread: I'd say no.

/arguing without spoilers/

Everything you learn in ME2 indicates TIM controls Cerberus. To me (maybe behind and silly as I was), I felt like I saw his true colors when I captured the base at the end of the suicide mission. It seemed to me that what he really wanted, from the very beginning, with the horrible investment of capital in Shepard, was to capture the base intact and take the Collectors' technology. And after the "ra-ra-ra-Save-the-Human-Colonies," it was a confirmation of what I'd feared, and additional evidence that the base needed to be destroyed.

More on point...can TIM be saved? I know there's stuff floating about in the novels about him and Reaper tech. I would hope that he could be saved and redirect Cerberus's efforts at some point in ME3, but I don't think it's likely.

[GodWood]

Xilizhra wrote...
Wouldn't this joke work better if it was Bioware moderators banning people for complaining about them? As it is, you're just a minority opinion in debates.

Yes, fortunately they're not in any postion of power.

Alas, they still wave their internet dicks around trying to dismiss and silence any contrary opinions, instead of, you know, countering them with relevant arguments.

SirEtchwart wrote...
What I don't understand is WHY anyone would want to save Cerberus. They sort of flail at their plans and hope it works (spoilers, it doesn't), and they're flat-out racist.

They succeed more then they fail. It's just that their successes usually result in lots of casualties which make many posters see it as a failure.

As for the racist thing, they have some xenophobic members but as a whole the organization itself is not racist.

Modifié par GodWood, 09 février 2012 - 03:26 .

[Medhia Nox]

Hey - I saved the DA and lost a lot of Alliance ships... and my successes are also seen as failures by many posters.

I feel for your TIM - we're totally misunderstood.

What's this? *receiving transmission* Yeah - but greater good yadda yadda - hard choices etc. etc. Didn't see "that" coming. *end transmission*

And Cerberus isn't racist... much like the non-racist KKK... they just prefer to support a specific group.

[GodWood]

Medhia Nox wrote...
And Cerberus isn't racist... they just prefer to support a specific group.

Exactly.

Just like the STG supports the Salarians, the Commandos supports the asari, the Council supports the BIG 3 (at the expense of everyone else) etc etc.

[Dean_the_Young]

Cerberus is far closer to the European concept of ethnic-identity nationalism (the French, the British, the Germans, the Dutch, the Spanish) than the racial-superiority beliefs of the KKK.

The difference between between the French government and the KKK in terms of racism isn't that one's a government and one's not, but what they consider their group to be defined by. The KKK believes in racial superiority by the intrinsic value of biology, and pursues that belief: that in no way means that the French government has the same motivations when it pursues the advancement of the French. One is an ideological aspect-identity group (white supremacy), the other is a cultural group that is overwhelming tied to an aspect-identity (most French are white). When the French government acts in the interest of its people at the expense of others, it's not doing so on the basis of racial superiority and justifying itself because non-French are intrensically inferior races.

The universe of Mass Effect is defined by the Council as a xeno-nationalism system, and Cerberus reflects that. 'Humanity' isn't simply an ethnic group: it's a cultural group as well. Just like 'the Asari' refers to a plethora of city-states, or 'the Krogan' refers to disunited warring tribes. Race and cultural identity go hand-in-hand: there are no significant multi-species powers.

Cerberus doesn't compare with the KKK because it lacks any comparative ideology. It's far closer to a hyper-nationalist movement than any actual racist ideology or motivation. You could replace 'Humanity' with 'America' or 'the Council' and it'd be just as consistent.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 09 février 2012 - 04:15 .

[GodWood]

BAM!

[TMA LIVE]

I'm wondering if we're allowed to include Deceptions take on TIM, which is "Humanity must not lose it's identity through integration, or we've lost".

[Dean_the_Young]

TMA LIVE wrote...

I'm wondering if we're allowed to include Deceptions take on TIM, which is "Humanity must not lose it's identity through integration, or we've lost".

I thought the community agreed that the entire thing was so horrible as to be non-canonical from every perspective?

[Butcher_of_Torfan]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I actually agree completely.

I like the ME1 Cerberus more because they are more realistic. A secretive organization needs to maintain a certain level of anonymity to avoid the authorities. The last thing they'd do is plaster an easily recognizable logo over everything.

I agree with you overall on how ME2 Cerberus has little feeling of being a shadowing black ops organization.  This is purely speculation on my part, but cerberus owns several large front corporations.  It could be that what we recognize as the Cerberus logo on the SR2 and all the uniforms is actually the equivalent of the Kmart K or FedEx logo, only recognized by a few individuals as being cerberus related?   Still doesnt explain all the times when people recoginize it as a cerberus ship approaching or in orbit.  Why the hell would they actually label the IFF or ship ID as cerberus?  You would think the SR2 would be labeled as a commercial freighter or something when given a scan or IFF ping.

Modifié par Butcher_of_Torfan, 09 février 2012 - 05:30 .

[G3rman]

There is no redeeming Cerberus, its rotted from within. Either start anew or eradicate entirely, that is the only option.

Either way, you have to get rid of TIM and his loyalists first.

[SirEtchwart]

GodWood wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Wouldn't this joke work better if it was Bioware moderators banning people for complaining about them? As it is, you're just a minority opinion in debates.

Yes, fortunately they're not in any postion of power.

Alas, they still wave their internet dicks around trying to dismiss and silence any contrary opinions, instead of, you know, countering them with relevant arguments.

SirEtchwart wrote...
What I don't understand is WHY anyone would want to save Cerberus. They sort of flail at their plans and hope it works (spoilers, it doesn't), and they're flat-out racist.

They succeed more then they fail. It's just that their successes usually result in lots of casualties which make many posters see it as a failure.

As for the racist thing, they have some xenophobic members but as a whole the organization itself is not racist.

Actually, yeah, you're right, I hadn't thought about the racist issue like that. That redeems them a bit, though I'm still not a fan of how they do things. To each their own, I suppose.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Save Cerberus? Yeah it's possible.

Save Cerberus leadershp? Ehhhh..... maybe.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Thus how Cerberus was supposed to hire you without losing some of his black-ops-ness? Still, you don't know where is their base and T.I.M.
Cerberus is doing it right.

Bioware goofy-writing is sometimes loling. Normandy has Cerberus mark on itself and no one in the citadel give a damn about it!

[Armass81]

Good riddance I say.

[Labrev]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Maybe, but IMO social skills aren't that important for a leader. Many very successful NFL QBs were jerks - your teammates will play their asses off for you if prove that you're a winner.

Umm... there are many kinds of leaders. A foot ball player may not need social skills because all he needs is to play foot ball well which at most will mean following a plan.

However the leader of an organization like Cerberus or the Alliance or a corporation? That requires social skills. You have to be able to network and build trust and especially loyalty. It is spoken about in Ascension how TIM is very effective and getting anyone he is talking to-to feel that at that moment they are the most important thing in the galaxy to him.

That goes a long way towards building trust and loyalty, which is useful for TIM.

It's very much the same thing. Trust and loyalty also comes with proving that you can get results. No matter how well-liked you may be, if the guys following you don't believe you can get the job done, you just won't get their best. Doesn't matter if that's a QB running an offense or a commando leading troops on an assault. No confidence, no motivation.

Not saying charisma doesn't matter, it's definitely a strength. It's just not something that will make-or-break someone in a leadership role. People want to see if you can walk your talk.

[Third ShadowOps]

 F%*#k Cerberus!! I have haited them ever since I played ME1. To me they are like Al Qaeda!

Modifié par Third ShadowOps, 09 février 2012 - 06:43 .

[Medhia Nox]

Cerberus a big team player with a lot of aliens now?

No... I don't think they are.

It's not like - 'You become Cerberus - and we'll ignore the fact that you're a Krogan.'

Their filtering is heavily based on race. ((I'm sure they wouldn't care if you were a human from Noveria... being from Earth has nothing to do with it.))

"Human" interests... is not the same as "French" interests.

I can become a French nationalist... I cannot become a different species.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 09 février 2012 - 01:46 .

[jaza]

Third ShadowOps wrote...

 F%*#k Cerberus!! I have haited them ever since I played ME1. To me they are like Al Qaeda!

[incinerator950]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

Thus how Cerberus was supposed to hire you without losing some of his black-ops-ness?

Why was it ever necessary for Cerberus to give up its "black-ops-ness"?

Why were the logos necessary?

I wouldn't mind it so much if it was just the people on the Normandy who had the logo and if it was clearly explained what the logo is. However we see that logo elsewhere too.

Fact is, it is just there to help the players understand who is who (everything is color coded in ME2) and because it looks kind of cool.

Uniforms are cool, I'll admit that. However they should have come up with different uniforms for the derelict Reaper team and Project Overlord.

I'm amazed you didn't say the answer to that in your own message.

[AlexXIV]

Cerberus may not be racist as such, but they support and tolerate them. They are even spreading anti alien propaganda through Terra Firma. Anyway, they are not beyond salvation. Anyone who gave the Rachni Queen a second chance should do the same to Cerberus if they decided to play in our team. Just because people were evil or have done evil things doesn't mean that they cannot do something good in the future. Even though I don't think everything they did should go unpunished. They should be put on trial as everyone else.

[incinerator950]

AlexXIV wrote...

Cerberus may not be racist as such, but they support and tolerate them. They are even spreading anti alien propaganda through Terra Firma. Anyway, they are not beyond salvation. Anyone who gave the Rachni Queen a second chance should do the same to Cerberus if they decided to play in our team. Just because people were evil or have done evil things doesn't mean that they cannot do something good in the future. Even though I don't think everything they did should go unpunished. They should be put on trial as everyone else.

Good luck getting them to help you, better luck convincing the Devs to allow them to even be recruitable.