161 réponses à ce sujet

[S.A.K]

So don't play Mass Effect or find another game where you play as a reaper.

[Gaidukk]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Guys, seriously, cut the man some slack. I wish I could speak half as good russian as this guy speaks english.

To your question Gaidukk, it is the fundamental moral quandary of video games. How can someone who has killed so many people without flinching be a good guy? How is it possible for a good guy to kill so many people without feeling any remorse?

Ultimately, your question boils down to the question developers are beginning to aske themselves. Is it really necessary to kill people in droves to further a story?

So no, if Shepard were a real person I don't think I would look as kindly on his actions as I do. Killing hundreds of thousands of people to save trillions more in my opinion is still the right course of action, but Shepard's relaxed attitude about it screams sociopath and I would avoid him if at all possible.

Unfortunately, Shepard isn't real. Unfortunately his story takes place in a video game, which is a medium largely built on the foundations of murder and death. Even the medium's most kid friendly titles contain the killing of enemies (Zelda, Mario).

It's a convention of the medium and as such isn't worth getting worked up about if you are interested in experiencing its stories.

That said, there are games out there that avoid this convention. If you are interested in a story without the slaughter of thousands, check out Dear Esther when it releases on Feb. 14.

But there is the games, than hero not killing anybody and still he fights with them - Batman Arkham City and Batman Arkham Asylum - so not all games has this conventions. And don't give a games a break just because they are games - gaming today is art, such as literature and cinema.

[Gaidukk]

S.A.K wrote...

So don't play Mass Effect or find another game where you play as a reaper.

In ME3 Shepard and Rapers will challenge for the title of the worst creature in Universe. I can't skip that.

[GuardianAngel470]

Gaidukk wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

EPIC SNIP OF SELF CENSORSHIP!

But there is the games, than hero not killing anybody and still he fights with them - Batman Arkham City and Batman Arkham Asylum - so not all games has this conventions. And don't give a games a break just because they are games - gaming today is art, such as literature and cinema.

That's true, just as Dear Esther contains no violence. I'm not arguing that we should give video games a pass for their violence; just that to complain about Shepard's violence you also have to include almost all of modern gaming. Nathan Drake, Gordon Freeman, Marcus Fenix, Master Chief, and so many more are guilty of the same thing.

When I look at Shepard's actions I see them as strategic sacrifices made in times of war. I see them as self defense against hordes of aggressors. Self defense is generally the rationale behind all of gaming's most iconic protagonists' actions. If it makes you feel better about Shepard's actions you could think of it this way: Shepard didn't want to kill those people and in fact wouldn't have killed those people if they hadn't been firing guns at him, forcing him to retaliate.

Do you follow history? Do you remember Winston Churchill's strategic sacrifice of the British city of Coventry? He knew it would be bombed because the Allies had cracked the Enigma encoder the germans used and had intercepted the transmission but he chose not to act in order to maintain a strategic advantage in the overarching war. He let thousands die in an almost futile attempt (at the time) to save Europe from German aggression.

It wasn't a clean choice morally; it wasn't something he could feel proud about later but in his mind, it had to be done to secure victory and survival.

To me, that is analogous to Shepard destroying the batarian system. I tried to alert them so that they could flee, but if I didn't destroy that relay before the Reapers arrived, trillions of innocent civilians could lose their lives before they had a chance to prepare.

It isn't a choice my Shepard can feel proud about and it isn't something that will be lauded, but it was something he felt had to be done.

[GuardianAngel470]

Arcian wrote...

Gaidukk wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

So don't play Mass Effect or find another game where you play as a reaper.

In ME3 Shepard and Rapers will challenge for the title of the worst creature in Universe. I can't skip that.

I... don't...

English. He. Doesn't. Speak. English. Fluently.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 09 février 2012 - 11:03 .

[Gaidukk]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Gaidukk wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

EPIC SNIP OF SELF CENSORSHIP!

But there is the games, than hero not killing anybody and still he fights with them - Batman Arkham City and Batman Arkham Asylum - so not all games has this conventions. And don't give a games a break just because they are games - gaming today is art, such as literature and cinema.

That's true, just as Dear Esther contains no violence. I'm not arguing that we should give video games a pass for their violence; just that to complain about Shepard's violence you also have to include almost all of modern gaming. Nathan Drake, Gordon Freeman, Marcus Fenix, Master Chief, and so many more are guilty of the same thing.

When I look at Shepard's actions I see them as strategic sacrifices made in times of war. I see them as self defense against hordes of aggressors. Self defense is generally the rationale behind all of gaming's most iconic protagonists' actions. If it makes you feel better about Shepard's actions you could think of it this way: Shepard didn't want to kill those people and in fact wouldn't have killed those people if they hadn't been firing guns at him, forcing him to retaliate.

Do you follow history? Do you remember Winston Churchill's strategic sacrifice of the British city of Coventry? He knew it would be bombed because the Allies had cracked the Enigma encoder the germans used and had intercepted the transmission but he chose not to act in order to maintain a strategic advantage in the overarching war. He let thousands die in an almost futile attempt (at the time) to save Europe from German aggression.

It wasn't a clean choice morally; it wasn't something he could feel proud about later but in his mind, it had to be done to secure victory and survival.

To me, that is analogous to Shepard destroying the batarian system. I tried to alert them so that they could flee, but if I didn't destroy that relay before the Reapers arrived, trillions of innocent civilians could lose their lives before they had a chance to prepare.

It isn't a choice my Shepard can feel proud about and it isn't something that will be lauded, but it was something he felt had to be done.

Good point. I feel better now. Shepard just self defence from enemies. But... why he don't do like Batman in BAA and BAC - just made enemies unconscious. Yes, they have guns - but enemies in thouse games also has guns and Bats don't kill them. Do in the ME universe hasn't a paralyzing ammo? Why don't use that? Drotics will no reflect with barriers, because it flew with moderate speed, so it will be a good weapon.
And about sacrifice a thousand to trillions life... This is typical Western mentality thing. Most that Western people can - accept that "It isn't a choice  Shepard or somebody else can  feel proud" You accept that until somebody sacrifice people you love.

[Gaidukk]

Arcian wrote...

Gaidukk wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

So don't play Mass Effect or find another game where you play as a reaper.

In ME3 Shepard and Rapers will challenge for the title of the worst creature in Universe. I can't skip that.

I... don't...

Oh crap... I just hurry.

[What a Succulent Ass]

The rapers are pretty bad business.

[Zkyire]

Gaidukk wrote...

Why Shepard considered as hero? He kill almost 2,000 peoples (my calculation for 2 games). And don't tell me what they be a bad people - who the hell Shepard to say, what person is good what is bad.
And then he kill 300,000 colonist, I thought - Shepard kills thousand of people - maybe Reapers not so bad? Yes, I know, what they killing thrillions, but, a number of Reapers is very big, so number of killed peoples per 1 Reaper less than kill Shepard.
This is modern twice standards or Western world's mentality count man, who accept the genocide as greatest hero in the Galaxy?

I don't even.

Throughout the entirity of human history killing lots of the enemy was considered a good thing.

The more you killed; the more you were praised.

This isn't a "modern" thing.

Nor is it a "western" thing.

Wherever in the world you are from, you can be damn well sure your ancestors and your country has, killed a lot of people.

[ediskrad327]

Gaidukk wrote...

1. Sorry for my bad english, I'm russian and for me hard to write so many words.
2. To DarkPsylocke26  - I don't saying that gangs are good, I just saying that Shepard not better than thouse. He killed people. This is one of the worst crimes.
3. To Golden Owl - yeah, right.. and in the DLC about Kasumi he shoot those guards in the room with password because they shoot to him with their back?
4. To redbaron76  - Yes - if Reapers killed people for no apparent reason this is bad; If Shep killing people for Freedom and Justice - nobody cares how much.
5. To ediskrad327 - Imagine if Reapers will be defeaded - If organic life in Galaxy not be destroyed, for several thousand years we filled the Milky Way (This is our Galaxy), through the 500 thousand years from the planets, which colonized people remain lifeless stones like the Earth in 2183. We use all the resources of the galaxy and begin the war, then we will destroy ourselves. Only here on the planets and the systems will not be any-thing. Planets and systems sufferirreparable damage. And Reaper slowing the our destruction development. Not for nothing do they say - "We will bring you to salvation through destruction." They have seen thousands of times, the consequences of uncontrolled development of organic life.

the scale of the galaxy is huge, resourses are not going to finish. and we don't know why the reapers do what they do...(well actually i do but that's spoilery leak material)

[Gaidukk]

ediskrad327 wrote...

Gaidukk wrote...

1. Sorry for my bad english, I'm russian and for me hard to write so many words.
2. To DarkPsylocke26  - I don't saying that gangs are good, I just saying that Shepard not better than thouse. He killed people. This is one of the worst crimes.
3. To Golden Owl - yeah, right.. and in the DLC about Kasumi he shoot those guards in the room with password because they shoot to him with their back?
4. To redbaron76  - Yes - if Reapers killed people for no apparent reason this is bad; If Shep killing people for Freedom and Justice - nobody cares how much.
5. To ediskrad327 - Imagine if Reapers will be defeaded - If organic life in Galaxy not be destroyed, for several thousand years we filled the Milky Way (This is our Galaxy), through the 500 thousand years from the planets, which colonized people remain lifeless stones like the Earth in 2183. We use all the resources of the galaxy and begin the war, then we will destroy ourselves. Only here on the planets and the systems will not be any-thing. Planets and systems sufferirreparable damage. And Reaper slowing the our destruction development. Not for nothing do they say - "We will bring you to salvation through destruction." They have seen thousands of times, the consequences of uncontrolled development of organic life.

the scale of the galaxy is huge, resourses are not going to finish. and we don't know why the reapers do what they do...(well actually i do but that's spoilery leak material)

After 400-500 thousands years all resourses will be used. They not unlimited. I think, Reapers helping save systems and planets from organic parasites like us.

[Python199]

Gaidukk wrote...

ediskrad327 wrote...

Gaidukk wrote...

1. Sorry for my bad english, I'm russian and for me hard to write so many words.
2. To DarkPsylocke26  - I don't saying that gangs are good, I just saying that Shepard not better than thouse. He killed people. This is one of the worst crimes.
3. To Golden Owl - yeah, right.. and in the DLC about Kasumi he shoot those guards in the room with password because they shoot to him with their back?
4. To redbaron76  - Yes - if Reapers killed people for no apparent reason this is bad; If Shep killing people for Freedom and Justice - nobody cares how much.
5. To ediskrad327 - Imagine if Reapers will be defeaded - If organic life in Galaxy not be destroyed, for several thousand years we filled the Milky Way (This is our Galaxy), through the 500 thousand years from the planets, which colonized people remain lifeless stones like the Earth in 2183. We use all the resources of the galaxy and begin the war, then we will destroy ourselves. Only here on the planets and the systems will not be any-thing. Planets and systems sufferirreparable damage. And Reaper slowing the our destruction development. Not for nothing do they say - "We will bring you to salvation through destruction." They have seen thousands of times, the consequences of uncontrolled development of organic life.

the scale of the galaxy is huge, resourses are not going to finish. and we don't know why the reapers do what they do...(well actually i do but that's spoilery leak material)

After 400-500 thousands years all resourses will be used. They not unlimited. I think, Reapers helping save systems and planets from organic parasites like us.

I agree with you that all resources will be used ,but the reapers are purging the entire galaxy.All living organisms will die ,not just sapients .Plus,the cycle will continue ,even sapients with a symbiotic-relationship with the planets will die , a Soundwave-like Reaper told us about this cycle.

[What a Succulent Ass]

After 400-500 thousands years all resourses will be used. They not unlimited. I think, Reapers helping save systems and planets from organic parasites like us.

Not sure if serious.

[Jynthor]

OP is obviously indoctrinated.

[What a Succulent Ass]

It's the only explanation.

[Zkyire]

Gaidukk wrote...

After 400-500 thousands years all resourses will be used. They not unlimited. I think, Reapers helping save systems and planets from organic parasites like us.

You are vastly underestimating the sheer size of the galaxy.

[Gaidukk]

Zkyire wrote...

Gaidukk wrote...

After 400-500 thousands years all resourses will be used. They not unlimited. I think, Reapers helping save systems and planets from organic parasites like us.

You are vastly underestimating the sheer size of the galaxy.

And you vastly underestimating the speed of populations growth. For 400 - 500 thousands years we field the whole Galaxy. Every system, every planet will be drained, they turn into lifeness rocks. Then war is starts. All organic life will be vanished forever. But if Reapers will proceed doing the Cycle - organic life will be exist, without suffer from the lack of resources. But people like Shepard don't understand that - or don't want to. If Shepard stop Reapers, he will guilty in doom all organic life in the slow and painful death with no chance to be reborn.

[Zkyire]

Gaidukk wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

Gaidukk wrote...

After 400-500 thousands years all resourses will be used. They not unlimited. I think, Reapers helping save systems and planets from organic parasites like us.

You are vastly underestimating the sheer size of the galaxy.

And you vastly underestimating the speed of populations growth. For 400 - 500 thousands years we field the whole Galaxy. Every system, every planet will be drained, they turn into lifeness rocks. Then war is starts. All organic life will be vanished forever. But if Reapers will proceed doing the Cycle - organic life will be exist, without suffer from the lack of resources. But people like Shepard don't understand that - or don't want to. If Shepard stop Reapers, he will guilty in doom all organic life in the slow and painful death with no chance to be reborn.

Renweable energy sources.

Case in point: the stars themselves.

So long as they exist; there will be massive amounts of energy for all.

You are working on the basis that all civilisations, no matter how advanced will only be using fossil fuels.

..which they wont.

The galaxy will not be stripped bare, ever.

[Python199]

Gaidukk wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

Gaidukk wrote...

After 400-500 thousands years all resourses will be used. They not unlimited. I think, Reapers helping save systems and planets from organic parasites like us.

You are vastly underestimating the sheer size of the galaxy.

And you vastly underestimating the speed of populations growth. For 400 - 500 thousands years we field the whole Galaxy. Every system, every planet will be drained, they turn into lifeness rocks. Then war is starts. All organic life will be vanished forever. But if Reapers will proceed doing the Cycle - organic life will be exist, without suffer from the lack of resources. But people like Shepard don't understand that - or don't want to. If Shepard stop Reapers, he will guilty in doom all organic life in the slow and painful death with no chance to be reborn.

And ,if Sheperd doesn't stop the Reapers he's dooming even more people .Based on your theroy it's a lose-lose.

[GuardianAngel470]

Gaidukk wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

Gaidukk wrote...

After 400-500 thousands years all resourses will be used. They not unlimited. I think, Reapers helping save systems and planets from organic parasites like us.

You are vastly underestimating the sheer size of the galaxy.

And you vastly underestimating the speed of populations growth. For 400 - 500 thousands years we field the whole Galaxy. Every system, every planet will be drained, they turn into lifeness rocks. Then war is starts. All organic life will be vanished forever. But if Reapers will proceed doing the Cycle - organic life will be exist, without suffer from the lack of resources. But people like Shepard don't understand that - or don't want to. If Shepard stop Reapers, he will guilty in doom all organic life in the slow and painful death with no chance to be reborn.

Keep in mind two things: First, according to the Codex, the Citadel (and all other advanced species in the galaxy) have only explored about 1% of the galaxy.

Second, as civilizations advance, population growth declines. Look at the average third world country. In those countries, parents normally have 5+ children in their lifetimes, usually significantly higher. Then look at the US or any other western society. The norm hovers around 2.5 children.

In economics, scholars have largely debunked Thomas Hobbes' and Thomas Malthus' hypotheses. It's a consistent trend that as a society advances, population growth declines. So no, I think you're the one overestimating population growth.

[spirosz]

Thrillions, hahaha.

[Python199]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Gaidukk wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

Gaidukk wrote...

After 400-500 thousands years all resourses will be used. They not unlimited. I think, Reapers helping save systems and planets from organic parasites like us.

You are vastly underestimating the sheer size of the galaxy.

And you vastly underestimating the speed of populations growth. For 400 - 500 thousands years we field the whole Galaxy. Every system, every planet will be drained, they turn into lifeness rocks. Then war is starts. All organic life will be vanished forever. But if Reapers will proceed doing the Cycle - organic life will be exist, without suffer from the lack of resources. But people like Shepard don't understand that - or don't want to. If Shepard stop Reapers, he will guilty in doom all organic life in the slow and painful death with no chance to be reborn.

Keep in mind two things: First, according to the Codex, the Citadel (and all other advanced species in the galaxy) have only explored about 1% of the galaxy.

Second, as civilizations advance, population growth declines. Look at the average third world country. In those countries, parents normally have 5+ children in their lifetimes, usually significantly higher. Then look at the US or any other western society. The norm hovers around 2.5 children.

In economics, scholars have largely debunked Thomas Hobbes' and Thomas Malthus' hypotheses. It's a consistent trend that as a society advances, population growth declines. So no, I think you're the one overestimating population growth.

Wait, how do you have two and a half children?

[GuardianAngel470]

Python199 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Gaidukk wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

Gaidukk wrote...

After 400-500 thousands years all resourses will be used. They not unlimited. I think, Reapers helping save systems and planets from organic parasites like us.

You are vastly underestimating the sheer size of the galaxy.

And you vastly underestimating the speed of populations growth. For 400 - 500 thousands years we field the whole Galaxy. Every system, every planet will be drained, they turn into lifeness rocks. Then war is starts. All organic life will be vanished forever. But if Reapers will proceed doing the Cycle - organic life will be exist, without suffer from the lack of resources. But people like Shepard don't understand that - or don't want to. If Shepard stop Reapers, he will guilty in doom all organic life in the slow and painful death with no chance to be reborn.

Keep in mind two things: First, according to the Codex, the Citadel (and all other advanced species in the galaxy) have only explored about 1% of the galaxy.

Second, as civilizations advance, population growth declines. Look at the average third world country. In those countries, parents normally have 5+ children in their lifetimes, usually significantly higher. Then look at the US or any other western society. The norm hovers around 2.5 children.

In economics, scholars have largely debunked Thomas Hobbes' and Thomas Malthus' hypotheses. It's a consistent trend that as a society advances, population growth declines. So no, I think you're the one overestimating population growth.

Wait, how do you have two and a half children?

It's a humorous statistical approximation. I think it's actually closer to 2.78 or something bizarre like that.

EDIT: I think MAD TV or SNL did a skit about it. I'm positive Top Gear had a joke about it.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 10 février 2012 - 06:15 .

[XenoAlbedo]

Somebody get me a universal translator so I can make sense of what this person is saying!