21 réponses à ce sujet

[Avalanche404]

The abuse of DLCs has become a frustrating matter.
Before being tagged as a "hater", let me say that I am a long-term fan of Bioware and I've played almost any of their games, from Baldur's Gate to Dragon Age 2, passing through Neverwinter Nights, Knights of the Old Republic, Jade Empire, Mass effect, and any episode of those series.

But I have grown tired of Bioware (and probably EA) policy about the quantity and quality of downloadable contents.
First of all, there is an unequal balance between the price of DLCs and the quantity and quality of their content, as most of them are skin or weapon packages and 10-minutes-long quests. Talking about additional quests: I think is unfair to expand the story through many single missions, "forcing" fans to spend even more money than the original game, in order to know how the plot continue through a bunch of short missions. This brings to the second point: is quite offensive to make and announce DLCs before the release of a game, because is like to say "hey, we are selling you an incomplete product, if you want it all you must spend more".
Last but not least: please, stop producing gameplay-ruining DLCs, like over-powered weapons and armors. Sure, there is no reason to buy them if I don't want to, but what if I am a collector and I like to buy limited edition? Am I forced to have a lot of addictional contents which gave me enough power to finish the game without changing equipment? Is like cheating! And again, someone could say "no one force you to use them", but hell, I have spent a lot for a collector's edition and those money cover also that, why I shouldn't use what I've paid for?

This is an invitation to all Bioware fans to tell your opinion, and let's gather Bioware attention, hoping in a future change of plans. I know that DLCs = easy money, but at least stop selling cheap cheats and splitting the plot in pieces.



Without regret but with hope of will have been understood,
a Bioware fan that have just preordered Mass Effect 3 limited edition (as I have made with Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age: Origins, and Dragon Age 2*).






PS: forgive me for my lack of english.
*: sorry but I must say it: worst-limited-edition-ever, expecially compared to DA:O.

[Stanley Woo]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

My problem is that EVERYTHING has exclusive DLC now.  It's moved beyond a cool bonus that makes the game more fun--now it's obnoxious and gimmicky.  I also have a problem with day one DLC because, seriously, that stuff should go in the god damn game.  There is no point in NOT including it in the vanilla edition other than to nickel and dime your consumer base.

"Bonus" content left and right before the damn game's even out?  Pathetic.

And that's my opinion on that.

You know what they call bonus content that's already in the main game? "The main game." To be a "bonus" it has be demonstrably separate from the main game. It has to be an add-on to something that is already a whole thing.

If it's "in the god damn game," it's just content, and to call it a bonus then would just anger more people because the bonus is already in the game! I don't think you can complain about "bonus DLC should be in the game" in one breath and suggest "make the bonus more invisible but still call it a bonus" in the next. Because at that point, you're just wanting to get more content for free.

Whenever these topics come up, I try to explain how DLC is made, by whom, and why it can't appear on the game disc. But some people are quite happy to dig in their heels and keep spouting their incorrect and misguided statements against DLC. I'm okay with folks disagreeing with DLC or disliking it, even hating it as a concept, but please be honest about it and get your facts straight, at the very least.

And Gatt9, that goes for you too.

[Stanley Woo]

Homey C-Dawg wrote...

 This excessive DLC trend is so annoying. I hope people get tired of paying $100+ for their video games soon so publishers stop with the nickle-and-diming and get back to a more honest business model.

That's the thing, though, Homey C-Dawg. As you yourself admit in the very next paragraph, "there are a lot of rabid video gamers out there these days" that like this kind of thing and will pay for it. Sure, you can disagree with it and not like it, but you can't tell me that you are authorized to tell other people how to play their game or what to buy or not buy? Or that your preferred way of gamingis somehow objectively better or superior to the way someone else plays the game?

Unfortunately there are a lot of rabid video gamers out there these days who will take it in the behind and ask for more, because VG's are like crack for them. That's the only way it could have gotten this excessive to begin with.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with ignoring all DLC and just playing the base game that comes out of the box. While developers and publishers do like DLC, they can't and don't count on everyone choosing to buy it so the base game still has to be seen to be of value and worth the purchase price.

As much as you might want all the extras, I think that as long as the game out of the box is still significant and can be taken in and of itself, we as a gaming populace are still in a good place. Absent all DLC, if a game gives you a good play experience, has an ending to the story presented in the game, and leaves you satisfied, it should still be considered a decent game. Then, if you really want more out of your game, there's replays or, if you want to spend the money, bonus/extra DLC available to continue or enhance the experience.

that's one way to look at it.

[Stanley Woo]

Almostfaceman wrote...

If there's a valid reason that Day 1 dlc isn't on the game disc I'm cool with that. That would pretty much be the only dlc I'd feel like I'm getting nickled and dimed on.

Usually, DLC is developed late in production by either a different team or by some of the original team who may not be needed for the main game anymore. Writers and some designers, for example, are most needed at the start and the middle of production, and less so at the end of a project.

Because it is a bonus and an extra, it has a slightly lower priority than the main game. The main game has to be content-locked and the game sent for certification anywhere between 2-8 weeks before the street date. If a game fails certification, whatever caused it to fail must get fixed, which means the entire thing must be tested again. The game must be certified all over again from the beginning because the game on disc has changed.

During the certification process, some folks can be working on a day 1 patch or moved to other projects (they're certainly not sitting idle). They could also be working to finish the DLC that will be made available on day 1. Because it is downloadable content, there is no physical media to manufacture and distribute, which means the DLC can be finished closer to the street date. It still has to be certified, but the process is much faster because it is a) not on physical media and much, much smaller than a full-sized game. Appearance packs and weapons are compartively smaller and simpler than story and character-based DLC, and people and effort are scheduled accordingly.

So, like a meal order in a kitchen, the team tries to schedule things so that everything is finished in time to come out together.

[Stanley Woo]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Stanley (can I call you Stanley?  Stan?  Mr. Woo?  Babycakes?), I think you kind of misinterpreted me a little.

Ylou can call me any of those things.

I SAID I liked DLC.  Hell, Shadow Broker was amazing, and I'd be lost without my Mattock.  What frustrates me is that "bonus this" and "exclusive that" is being handed out like candy to any and every product that manages to sport the N7 logo.  It feels... cheap.  Like you guys are selling it too hard and completely in the wrong way.  It actually offends me a bit as a customer; I feel like somebody's trying to play me for a sucker.  Misguided or not, I feel like the marketing dudes think I'm stupid or something.

And if being a mod for Bioware has taught you anything, it should be that people can be very wrong about pretty much anything, but have very strong feelings about it.

Absolutely. Unfortunately, i can't control how you feel about DLC. All i can do is explain things as openly and honestly as I can in the hopes that, even if you choose not to buy the DLC, you will at least understand the hows and whys of it. i know many people get really freaked out by some of the things that game companies do, and much of it is because they aren't involved in the industry and have no idea just how much and what kind of work goes into making their favourite games.

I'm not here to convince people to like all DLC, or even to like all BioWare or EA DLC. I'm just here to correct some misinformation, to try and reassure people that no, bonus stuff is not (and should never be) crucial to the game experience, and to maybe change the way they see DLC and reinterpret what it means to them. In my opinion, seeing it as truly a bonus and as something extra is a good way of doing that, like sprinkles on an ice cream sundae or anchovies on a meat lovers pizza! Mmmmm anchovies!

I was probably a bit strong in my wording, but I'm worried what future marketing campaign might look like.

You wanna know something? Publishers and developers are also worried what the future might look like, which is why they try various ways to get people to buy their games and keep buying them. BioWare experimented with DLC-like products back in the Neverwinter Nights days, when "premium modules" were sold as extras. No one complained about it back then. They were too excited about getting to keep playing official NWN modules created by BioWare!

Also, what I meant by my "it should be in the game" was that it's kind of cheap and tacky for developers to start milking the DLC cow before the game's even out.  It makes fans angry, and from an outsider's perspective, it looks like we were sold an incomplete product on purpose.

And as i keep telling people, that's not the intention and we cannot control how people interpret the DLC concept. As with anything new or different, some folks love it, some are okay with it even if they choose not to buy it, some folks really hate it, and some have a very skewed view of it. But that's the internet for you. My posts are mainly for that last group, but some attitudes are hardwired and difficult to change.

[Stanley Woo]

BillsVengenace wrote...

Why does Stanley Woo only appear in threads to defend EA's vile and disgusting abuse of DLC and their consumers?

Usually because most people aren't familiar with the way businesses work and spout a lot of incorrect information, basing entire philosophies and attitudes on it. Your statement itself is an example of the kind of "sensationalist hyperbole" that is born out of a) not being a business owner, not having a stake, professional, personal, or monetary, in the products being discussed, and c) the general notion that all corporations are inherently evil and care nothing for the consumer (even though that same company requires consumers in order to survive). to some people, companies are at once "ensuring they're driving all their customers away" and "milking the customer for all they're worth." You can't do both at the same time.

Also, noting is gained or learned when we all agree on something. it's only when we can talk out our disagreements that we can learn something new and, maybe, change our minds about things. Oh, and in case it's unclear, I work for a large corporation but I am still an advocate of consumer power, another reason I like these discussions.

[Stanley Woo]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

And that's fine.  But could you at least explain the rationale behind "let's put DLC in everything lol," or is that a marketing secret?  Because seriously, DLC from an XBox case that looks like a pair of metal man boobs?

You got me. I think it's pretty snazzy, but not something I'm intrested in getting.

Have they tried, you know, actually selling the game on its own merits?  That, er, may sound a bit naive, but seriously, the reason I and everyone I know personally got into Mass Effect is because a friend told us the games were good.  We wondered why, so we looked up information.  What we found was this incredible universe we couldn't wait to jump into, populated with characters we couldn't wait to meet, sprinkled with cool weapons and powers we were itchy to test out on some seriously badass-looking bad guys.

Sure, but I look at it the same way as looking for a job. Why do you need a resume when your work ethic and dedication and loyalty will stand on its own? Why wear nice clothes to the interview when they have nothing to do with how well you work?

Advertising is all about making something look or feel more desirable to the casual and average viewer. Fans of Mass Effect can only get more excited about the game, and those who don't know about it will see all these reminders about the game and may become as big a fan as you and your friends. But that initial desire to buy has to come from somewhere, right? Marketing has to contend with a market of millions of potential customers, not just existing fans, those who would probably like Mass Effect anyway, and people who browse game news sites all the time. they've got to reach as many people as they can. that's kinda their job.

Just because people have differing opinions on a subject doesn't mean that there isn't a real issue present.  The whole DLC debacle might ultimately do your product a disservice.  Keyword: might.  More data needed.

True. But if that's the case, it's not going to be because people said so, as much as we welcome and appreciate the feedback. It's going to be proven by numbers gathered by a bunch of people whose job it is to analyze those things and report back to us.

[Stanley Woo]

Kileyan wrote...

Hey Stanley Woo, now that you are done defending the huge waves of DLC that I do not really disagree with anyway, any chance you could comment on the huge difference between single large expansion packs of old............compared to the grand total of the DLC of today.

Sure, i'll try and field this one. In my opinion, videogames and gaming has become extremely popular, so much so that it's no longer considered "nerdy" or "unpopular." With the invention of the Nintendo Wii, browser games, mobile and tablet games, and with large-scale adoption of broadband interrnet, gaming has never been more popular and it looks to get more popular still. because of this popularity, there is a lot of competition. There will never be a time when the average gamer is without a game to play, whether it's Angry birds, the latest AAA release, an ongoing MMO, or Farmville on Facebook.

Expansion packs were a way to keep people interested in a game long after they were finished the main game's story. Due to the size of expansion pack, they were few and far between. these day, i reckon, in the time it takes for a developer to release a full-on expansion pack, people might already have forgotten your game. DLC is, again, in my opinion, a way to counteract that "forgetfulness." With smaller but more frequent content releases, you keep people interested in your game for a lot longer, which means potential sales of sequels can be bigger and, if actual expansion packs are released, players will still be hankering for them.

i see DLC as micro-expansion packs, which is probably why i don't really have a problem with them. the old game + expansion model had to adapt to the changing market and player expecation, just as game budgets had to increase to keep up with player expectation. DLC pricing is the way it is (seen as more expensive than similar amounts of content in a single expansion pack) to get a better return on a much larger investment than, say, 10 years ago.

A decade ago, a million-dollar game would have been pretty snazzy. These days, AAA titles probably run in the tens or even the dozens of millions. That's why all the advertising (now seen at the movie theatre, on television, billboards, etc., and not just in game enthusiast magazines). That's why the ancillary products / tie-ins. That's why everything, really.

[Stanley Woo]

The Sarendoctrinator wrote...

I guess my reasons for hating the DLC system are different from most of yours... It's not that I mind paying for extra missions. I gladly bought DAO, the Awakening expansion, and the Ultimate Edition just so I could have all of that content. My problem is that DLC is unavailable to me unless it's released later on the game disc, because I don't use an internet connection with my Xbox (or any consoles). I don't even mind waiting a year to play the extras, as long as they're eventually released on a disc the way they were with DAO, but that hasn't happened for Mass Effect.

I get you. I grew up a PC gamer and only got into console gaming in the last 5 years or so. My experiences and tolerances and preferences will be slightly different than yours.

[Stanley Woo]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
First and foremost I want a kick ass game.

Done. Based on everything I'm hearing from my coworkers, ME3 is arguably the best story we've yet released. One coworker said that, by the middle of the game, he had been reduced to an emotional wreck by the events he was playing through. In a good, immersive way, of course.

Save the energy put in your marketing incentives to improve the basic game.

Different departments, different focuses. The ME3 development team has worked extremely hard to bring you guys the best "basic game" they can.

The problem with how BW's games are sold is that I have the feeling of not buying a game, but that I am part of your economic equation and that anything goes - from cross product marketing to the collection of unknown data on my computer. If BW/EA wants to get rid of that evil image then they have to clean up their act.

Or... based solely on your wording, you could see that every company everywhere wants to sell you as much as they can. one of the main differences here is that you can actually talk to the people who create the game.

[Stanley Woo]

FFinfinity1 wrote...

Maybe someday down the road Bioware/EA will release some UBER MASSEFFECT EDITION with all 3 games with every DLC released on a few discs. I would buy the hell out of that. I mean honestly if i physically don't have something in my hands or possession then it doesn't feel bought to me.

Aw man, wouldn't that be cool?

[Stanley Woo]

atheelogos wrote...

Stanley whats the rationale for not putting out DLC that people, like myself, wouldn't mind buying?

I dunno (since I'm not in Marketing or on the Mass Effect 3 team), but I would guess it's because the system isn't really based on current player requests but past history. i would have no idea what you "wouldn't mind buying," but if I see that past players of the series have purchased X, Y, and Z, i would try selling you those things. And if I see that A, B, and C sold extremely well for similar games to mine, I would consider selling those kinds of things as well.

It's all a risk, and those risks don't always pay off, but that's why it's called risk, isn't it?

[Stanley Woo]

Alexander Kogan wrote...

I'm beginning to think that EA is purposefully making BioWare either remove or lock out content that's already in the game to force us to pay for more to get the full experience. Oh how I miss the days when we could actually get a full and complete game instead of publishers making developers flush out incomplete games.
<_<

Patently incorrect, on both counts, and I addressed this sentiment earlier in the thread.

[Stanley Woo]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

And I find it somewhat odd that you didn't respond to my earlier post. Still awaiting an answer on that if you can. 

You didn't ask a question and you seemed to have everything figured out on your own, being a developer and all. If you disagree with me, that's fine, we disagree. I disagree with your accusatory tone, though.

[Stanley Woo]

PDesign wrote...

Collectors Edition from Gamestop - 80$
Standard Edition from Origin - 60$
ME Action Figures Series 1 (4-Pack) - 75$
ME Action Figures Series 2 (4-Pack) - 75$
The Art of the Mass Effect Universe - 40$
PlayStation 3 Slim Limited Mass Effect 3 Vault - 90$
Xbox 360 Slim Limited Mass Effect 3 Vault - 90$
iOS Game - 8$

Total = 518$

I don't understand why people complain.

Because they want content that costs $518 to get and only want to pay the $60 that is absolutely necessary to play ane enjoy the game. That's some people's reason, anyway, but those folks generally don't want to accept having only the bare minimum required. They want everything, which is fair, but either don't want to pay for it or want to dictate their own terms, which is, well, less fair.

[Stanley Woo]

Icinix wrote...

Anyway - point is - the DLC is now so bloated and confusing that no-one really has any straight up answers or knows what the hell is going on - maybe the implentation of DLC prior to the game could be done better - especially now CE editions (editions maybe a little redundant) are sold / selling out fast. Making it harder to pick and choose which DLC they want.

Doesn't sound like you needed any light shed, but your point about confusion (which echoes some of the other posts in this thread) and maybe making the whole process simpler or better is totally fair.

[Stanley Woo]

Hey, folks, the snark level has risen quite a bit over the last few pages. Can we take it down a couple of notches, please? PoliteAssassin and I have a difference of opinion, is all. There's no call to doubt his veracity or to misrepresent his posts.

EDIT: And PoliteAssassin, the request for a reduction in snark applies to you too. Thank you.

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 09 février 2012 - 05:23 .

[Stanley Woo]

hex23 wrote...

PoliteAssasin, maybe you responded and I didn't see it. If that's the case I'll ask again. Who are you and what do you do, exactly?

Let it go, hex23.

[Stanley Woo]

El_Chala_Legalizado wrote...

Hey Woo! Any chances to have those extra dlc on a disk like some kind of expansion? Mostly because in my country is a little complicated to get them...

I don't know, as I'm not in Marketing and not part of the Mass Effect 3 team. We can always hope, though.

[Stanley Woo]

@izmirtheastarach: It's cool, let it go.

[Stanley Woo]

pnakasone wrote...

I think that the DLC provides the bulk of the profit on games as you do not need to produce disks, manuals, boxes, ship them, and convince stories to give shelf space to them. If they did not make money on mass effect 2 they would not provide the money to make mass effect 3.

Untrue. The main game is still the primary source of profit. Yes, DLC is cheaper to produce but there are also far fewer people buying it.

[Stanley Woo]

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