61 réponses à ce sujet

[capn233]

Conventional wisdom be damned!

Perhaps someone has said this before, I am not sure.  You usually see it listed as one of the easy classes.  Maybe, but that isn't really what I am talking about here necessarily.  All of the classes are quite powerful by the end of the game, so it isn't much use talking about that.  So early to mid game will be somewhat important.

Also let's forget bonus powers for the time being.  They greatly alter the base class and can morph them into something different.

So what evidence am I going to present?

Signature Power: Tactical Cloak

I am aware that many like this power, and pushing a button to become invisible is pretty straightforward, but what do you get for your troubles?  It does give a damage boost, I suppose that is nice.  It allows you to "take less damage" since most enemies won't hit you.  It allows repositioning.  It has some problems.  Instead of taking less damage, you usually transfer the damage to the squad.  Additionally, rockets have a habbit of tracking you in cloak, which is fairly lame.  Not just ones that were fired before you cloak.  You also can't regen during cloak.  How does this compare to Adrenaline Rush, or Charge which cover several of Cloaks bases?  How does it compare to Tech Armor?  What about Combat Drone... it actually distracts enemies reducing volume of fire the entire team receives?  Singularity can stick protected enemies or ragdoll unprotected ones.  This may be the weakest or least useful signature power in the game.  Sure it is usable, but not as useful as the other ones.  Additionally, skipping it entirely does not have near the effect as skipping the signature powers on the other classes.

Weapons: Sniper Rifle, SMG, Pistols

So you get the rookie loadout plus sniper rifles.  Sounds alright.  Your signature as a vanilla Infiltrator is Sniper Rifles and you are stuck with the Mantis for better or for worse.  It isn't that the Mantis is bad, it does a pretty respectable amount of damage and is accurate.  But for a class that was very rifle oriented in the first game how does it fare now?  Mantis is screwed on ammo capacity worse than any other weapon in the game.  It is so bad that the Off-Hand Ammo Pack doesn't even give it any extra ammo.  To make matters worse, you aren't going to be upgrading until 1/3 - 1/2 of the way through the game (after DCC or Assassin, depending on order).  Yes you can fall back on SMG and Pistol, which aren't terrible, but Sentinel, Adept, and Engineer have those and more powers to boot.

Bonus Weapon: Widow, Assault Rifle Training, Shotgun Training

At least you get to upgrade to the Widow.  Not so fast my friend, how much of an upgrade is that?  It does do tremendous damage per shot, and somehow even has more spare ammo than the Mantis.  Is it more effective than the Viper, aka the best standard gun in the game?  That is debatable.  Especially when you consider that you will also get another weapon to add to the Viper if that was the direction you were going.  Unfortunately, if you take shotgun you have the loadout of a Viper Vanguard while having worse survivability.  Or you could take ARs and be a soldier with worse damage output and survivability.  So Widow it is.  Of course Soldier does more damage with the Widow and is more survivable...  At least an Infiltratrator can briefly turn invisible to get his squad killed.

Crowd Control Ability

Infiltrator has some decent abilities here.  Squad Disruptor isn't bad against Geth, and weapon overheat does give you a slight benefit.  Squad Cryo Ammo makes certain missions with melee creatures easier.  You can also get Incinerate, which is also pretty decent.  AI Hacking can disrupt synthetics and isn't too bad.  So you probably have more CC than a Soldier.  Not really more than a Vanguard or Sentinel.  Adept or Engineer?  No.

Survivability

Infiltrator is a combat class hybrid, but certainly not a tank.  Interestingly Sentinel who is not a combat class may be the biggest tank, but Soldier and Vanguard are pretty tough.  Especially when signature powers are used correctly.  Perhaps Infiltrator is a little more survivable than Adept or Engineer.  The two classes most consider to be the least tough.  That isn't saying a whole lot.  As covered above, you do have Cloak.  But if you are low on health what does that really do for you?  Ok I can perhaps run to a different spot and hide, all the while not regenerating health or shields even if I am not hit.  It's more like a little time out... I guess that isn't bad if you like to hide.  However, Tech Armor, Adrenaline Rush, Charge would all likely work better here.  Even Drone might be more effective as it draws fire and allows your shields time to regenerate.  Adept it sort of depends... if you can have the squad strip the protections and you float all the enemies you can buy some time.

That's about it...

Really this probably comes off as innane ramblings, but I recently started a new game with Infiltrator and was thinking about this.  Am I dying all the time?  No.  Is the squad dying all the time?  No.  But there are a couple reasons for that and in the end is probably despite the class rather than because of it.  First I took Neural Shock and that vastly improves an Infiltrator's ability to get close to enemies and not get killed.  It's also on a rapid cooldown.  Incinerate just takes a bit longer, time you may not have.  Which means actual Tactical Cloak use is down a bit.  Do I still use it?  Yes.  Flanking is nice, damage boost is helpful.  But it means squad positioning is very important when I use it.  Also your mental timer of when it will end needs to be on if you are trying to drastically change position.

Perhaps interestingly I consider Infiltrator one of the best classes in ME1.  I think for this one perhaps passive should give a bonus to sniper rifle ammo.  Sniper slowdown is ok, but not something that is ultra helpful to me.

****edit***

The thread title may be a little over-the-top and yes it was supposed to be an attention getter.  I am not trying to troll and I am not trying to insult anyone that likes the Infiltrator class.  Just want to have an honest discussion about it. And if someone can make compelling arguments why I am wrong I am more than happy to hear them.

Modifié par capn233, 09 février 2012 - 04:06 .

[HolyAvenger]

I'm sorry, but having played through Insanity with every class bar Engineer, I found my Widow Infiltrator to be the most lethal class in the game. Headshots with upgrades = one-shotting basic mooks, 2/3 shotting elite mooks and even things like Scions and Harby become more trivial. Cloak gives you the ability to move around the battlefield unnoticed, setting up more headshots should some enemies get too close to you.

I didn't even need my other powers.

[capn233]

Soldier does Widow headshots better than Infiltrator. You can maneuver with Adrenaline Rush at least as effectively as with Tactical Cloak.

[RedCaesar97]

A well-structured, coherent, and even somewhat valid argument. "Best" class and "Worst" class are subject to opinion obviously. I could probably make an argument for each class on why it is the Worst class in the game. When I have more time, I will try to elaborate.

[HolyAvenger]

Not necessarily. AR means you're still getting fired on. Cloak means free shots. This makes a difference. I find my infiltrator ups my survivablity (yes at the cost of my teammates, but who cares if they die).

As for Widow Soldier...point, I've not played one. I tend to prefer my soldier with a Revenant.

[capn233]

The problem is Cloak does not boost your speed, it does not actually prevent you from getting hit, and it prevents regeneration. It is decent for flanking, but Adrenaline Rush essentially reduces your damage by time dilation and from actual damage nerf with Hardened. In addition it has shorter cooldown than Cloak at every rank, with the gap widening as it ranks, and with time dilation essentially has longer duration.

Someone informed me I opened a huge can of worms via PM. They are right. I know how popular this class is. What does it really offer the player that isn't covered by another class. That is besides a sexy looking power?

[CoffeeHolic93]

 Passive sniper slowdown? I'm a TERRIBLE shot, so it helps that I don't have to wait three seconds to shoot all the time!
Cryo/Shuriken. That's it - I'm satisfied. Go home, Soldier class. 

Tactical Cloak - Making an enemy not target you. It needs work, I agree. When you use it for a damage bonus when sniping, enemies usually head back into cover. But for aggressive purposes? I can think of quite a few scenarios where I can be deeper in behind enemy lines and know EXACTLY what I'm doing. Sure, a Vanguard can get in faster, but they go anywhere fast

Take Jack's Recruitment - second last room with an elite bunkering down next to a YMIR. I placed my squad down, popped cloak and rushed past the YMIR and to his position. Now I was placed there, with the YMIR/usually a few blue suns between me and my squad and they're getting shot at from two/three directions meaning they have no effective cover.

The lack of a regen is quite the nerf when compared to other class abilites, that much is true. 

[HolyAvenger]

uhh, sure it prevents you from getting hit...enemies stop firing at you. Vanguard is restricted by the fact they can only charge to where the enemy is. Infiltrator can move to anywhere without drawing aggro. AR is better for shooting, but I find cloak much, much better from a mobility point of view.

Passive sniper slowdown is better for headshots than AR imo. And you don't need the damage boost to one-shot.

Incinerate is a very handy power for what is worth, AI Hacking is meh (because there aren't that many misisons you can use it on).

[Relix28]

capn233 wrote...

The problem is Cloak does not boost your speed, it does not actually prevent you from getting hit, and it prevents regeneration. It is decent for flanking, but Adrenaline Rush essentially reduces your damage by time dilation and from actual damage nerf with Hardened. In addition it has shorter cooldown than Cloak at every rank, with the gap widening as it ranks, and with time dilation essentially has longer duration.

Someone informed me I opened a huge can of worms via PM. They are right. I know how popular this class is. What does it really offer the player that isn't covered by another class. That is besides a sexy looking power?

A different playstyle? Cloak can provide a really fun dynamic to the fights, if you know how to utilize it. Personally, I prefer the CQC (shotgun/smg + cryo) Infiltrator, since the idea of sitting behind cover, and one or two-shoting everything from afar is boring as hell to me. And for that particular playstyle, Cloak works really well, and is very unique and versatile in the way it functions. You just have to be creative and use it right.
While I can agree with most points you made in the OP, I can't really agree with "the worst class" assessment. Mostly because there is no such thing as "the worst (or the best) class" in this game. There are strenghts and weaknesess with every class, but mostly they are just different. Every class brings a certain unique flow/dynamic to the game, and Infiltrators are no different. What it really comes down to is a matter of preference. You either like a certain class dynamic or you don't.

Modifié par Relix28, 09 février 2012 - 05:04 .

[SpockLives]

@HolyAvenger: I have to disagree with you about Infiltrators being better at repositioning than Soldiers. Cloak only lasts a few seconds, and you can't regen while repositioning like this. Soldiers can get +50% sprint speed, so even without ARush, they can reposition with impunity. The only trick is to make sure you go at an angle to the enemy. NPCs can't track you fast enough to shoot you unless you are moving almost straight toward them. Then add in the fact that ARush slows down Shep's rate of fire, but not movement! You can literally outrun bullets, as long as you don't run directly toward or away from the enemy.

Conclusion: Soldiers are better repositioners, but I still find Infiltrator more fun because of Incinerate and AI Hacking. Also Cloak allows me and my terrible aim to line up head shots without taking damage. I hate having my aim thrown off by being shot, so I agree with you on that point.

Modifié par SpockLives, 09 février 2012 - 06:09 .

[clopin]

Easiest? Maybe. Sniping is absurdly easy in this game.
Best? Hell nah.
Worst? I don't know. Thinking the Adept might be the "Worst" but all the classes are equally valid. Guess it also depends on what best and worst mean to you.

[HolyAvenger]

@SpockLives

Depends on what you want out of your repositioning. When I'm playing infiltrator, I want to be in a position to headshot cleanly and quickly or pour fire into an unsuspecting enemy at close range. Hence I basically want to get up close unnoticed or far away without enemies following me. AR doesn't help with either one basically. Cloak lasts what 8 seconds? That's heaps.

I frickin love AR, don't get me wrong, and its very handy for repositioning too. But I prefer Cloak when playing infiltrator. I guess that comes down playstyle as is mentioned by others.

I also agree there's no such thing as best/worst class, just whatever you like or dislike playing. For me it would also be adept and soldier that I dislike, and infiltrator and vanguard that I like.

[capn233]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Finally you admit how bad the Mantis is! I recall going through some nasty arguments over this topic. :-)

Ha, no I wasn't exactly saying the Mantis is terrible. It is still decent, but the ammo capacity issue is more glaring on Infiltrator than soldier. It does allow you to one-shot basics, at least with a little help from cloak... As far as nastiness, I think that was more into when the Incisor came up, and your conversation with the other guy in that thread

Back to Cloak it absolutely does not prevent you from getting hit. Yes enemies don't target you, but you can get hit by cross fire.

As far as fun factor, I am not saying it isn't fun. I posted this thread right after doing Korlus, on which I had a blast. BUT I was running around using the Shuriken with Neural Shock and some Incinerate. Cloak was used as a damage boost against Heavies and for the occasional reposition. But it almost seemed more effective to NS some of the guys on the platforms so they would be stuck out of cover and Garrus would hit them rather than even bother with cloak. Perhaps I shouldn't bring the bonus power in, but we are talking 1pt NS and 1pt Incinerate versus Assassination Cloak. Most other classes have signature powers that aren't bypassed by a bonus or some other random power.

I also played Horizon after making this thread... screwing around and having fun. I used Cloak a handful of times, mostly at the end. I agree with Coffee, CryoShuriken is pretty fun... but you can get that on Vanguard.

As for ease, this wasn't exactly which class is easiest or hardest to play. Is the easiest class the best or strongest? An analogy. It is more difficult to drive the C6R but that doesn't mean a docile Miata is better at a racetrack.

"Worst class" may have been a bit harsh to say... maybe a little weaker overall. To be fair I don't think there is a huge disparity in all of them, especially not by the end of the game. But Infiltrator seems like it doesn't quite do anything the best.

Modifié par capn233, 09 février 2012 - 07:22 .

[HolyAvenger]

Of course you'll get hit if you actively run into fire, I wasn't suggesting it gave invulnerability...

[lakdav]

The only problem i have with the Infiltrator is the sniper ammo quantity. Which is not the fault of the Infiltrator per se, but i just cant figure out why they made it so low. At least could have given them an upgrade doubling the ammo capacity somewhere at 3 or 4/5.

[xelander]

capn233 wrote...
/snip

I have to disagree.

Signature Power: Tactical Cloak

Tactical Cloak makes the Infiltrartor the master of tactical maneuvers.
To a degree, all signature powers establish control over the battlefield
and allow options for repositioning yourself; however, I find the Cloak
the best at that. There are, of course other schools of thought, but I
always spec to Agent/Enhanced Cloak. With the third tech upgrade that's
135% of 8 secs, minus the Insanity reduction, it makes for a duration of
9.2 seconds (or 8.6, depending on the exact formula). You can cover a lot of ground in that time (even
more if you slap on the Stimulator Conduits). The only power that
potentially covers more ground is Charge, but you need an enemy at your
desired location. You find yourself a sweet spot without the enemy being
aware of it (unlike when using ARush or Charge) - basically allowing
you to act upon the enemy tactics instead of reacting to them (to a larger degree than either ARush or Charge, which have to take into consideration damage taken and/or enemy to target. Engaging the cloak instantly forces the enemy to switch targets (since you are almost always their first priority) and switch positions (since your position is no longer flagged as occupied, the AI changes its plans accordingly). You can force a second of respite from enemy fire by that, or make them change locations or just basically screw with the AI. A small example - all YMIR' and Revenant users's ability to lay suppressive fire (which is esentially locking you down) gets severely reduced by using Cloak after they target you. Frankly, the only class that has easier time with such enemies is the Engineer.

As for volume of fire being divided between yourslef and your squadmates - it's not a simple equation as that. After I cloak, either my squaddies die and make the baddies stand still (allowing my to line up the perfect (head)shots), or they are still alive and now I have a surround/crossfire situation, which the AI, again, doesn't handle very well. Either way, the enemy tactics went down the drain and I am happily dispatching them at my leisure.

Also, Cloak duration = cutting off spawning points, much like Charge. Implications obvious.

Rockets tracking you - well, you do have to use your brains now and again. Insta-win buttons are not fun (cough*Tech Armor*cough). Same reason why I don't mind the health regen issue - the Cloak would be OP otherwise.

All combat classes can be played as one-trick ponies. Cloak can be just as destructive as Charge and ARush. The Infiltrator is squishier but OTOH its one trick has less limitations than the other ones.

class Passive

Sniper slowdown - either it gives me a much higher chance of not wasting ammo (essential for Widow) and maximizing damage (headshots), or gets more out of the Viper than any other class. Not to mention that cooldowns run at normal speed in sniper slow motion. It makes you a good shot even if you normally suck at sniping. Yes, please.

Weapons loadout

Yes, Mantis sucks ammo-wise. The only weapon that sucks more in that respect is the Incisor. So, what? Winning fights faster means cutting off spawning points, i.e. CQC, not sniping (or it means burst damage - against bosses). Mantis is still a great burst-damage option, which is essential when fighting bosses/large crowds (In fact, since I play Insanity exclusively, I've taken to the burst damage approach on all builds except the Revenant Soldier; otherwise you just die quick from exposure). As for upgrades, you can do 5 side missions after Horizon (I usually do the one with the 3rd shield upgrade and 4 from the Firewalker DLC) and trigger the DCS. Meaning, you can get your desired loadout after 4 RMs, Horizon and 5 side missions. It's not that much. Or, alternatively, you can play NG+.

While we're on the subject of upgrades, you can get all the relevant ones before Horizon - SR 3rd, SMG 2nd, SG 2nd, tech 3rd (assuming you have Kasumi DLC).

Bonus Weapon

Assault rifles for an Infiltrator is not my cup of tea. Check Tony Gunslinger's builds if you like them.

Widow fixes the ammo problem and builds heavily upon the burst-damage aspect.Me likes. Yes, Soldier does more damage with it, but first, Soldier has ARush(i.e. one shot) once every 8 seconds (duration + cooldown), Infiltrator has slow motion every scope-in; and second, when do you really need that much more damage? Perhaps OSOKing mid-level mooks or reducing the total number of bullets to take down a boss by one or two. Not that big a difference in my book. Also, one other reason for picking the Widow is the extremely relaxing feeling of scoping into slow motion, hearing the BOOM and seeing the enemy slowly falling down, as if its puppeteer's strings have been cut. Honestly, that gun has maybe the best sound in the game. Reminds me of that HK-47 quote about love.

Shotguns. Hell yeah! Cloak, Eviscerator, elbow of death, there's only so much one needs to be happy. You lose burst-damage at distance, but you get more at CQC. Yes, a Vanguard can have the same loadout with more survivability, but again, Infiltrator has more freedom/flexibility.

I have both versions of the Infiltrator (Evi/Viper vs. Widow) and I like'em both. I can't say that I'm that much faster with one or the other.

Crowd Control

What you said, with the remark that it is also nothing less than the other classes' skilsets. Plus, you have the added ability to f*ck up the enemy AI with your signature power.

Survivability

Aah, there's the rub. So the Infiltrator is squishier than a Vanguard or a Soldier. So what? You won't bludgeon them to death, instead you'll filet them elegantly. Besides, especially on Insanity, the deciding factor is not how long can you survive but how fast can you kill them.

Final notes

I find that ME2 has an exceptionally balanced gameplay, wrt to class diversification and equality. All the classes feel different, yet neither one is much more powerful than the others. It's all in how you play them and what you prefer. For example, I've only done the Sentinel once or twice - I saw how powerful it can be, had some fun shattering frozen statues but didn't get so addicted to it, like with the Infiltrator or the Vanguard.

You just have to adapt to the skillsets of the class and play to their strengths before you try to cover their weaknesses. To quote the great master: "Empty your mind - be formless, shapeless /.../ be water, my friend."

[capn233]

Some interesting points. But...

Tactical Cloak is simply not as good as Charge or even Adrenaline Rush for positioning. Yes you need an enemy to be somewhere to use Charge, but how often are you flanking when there are no enemies, or going 5 miles away from every enemy? You also travel instantly with immunity and get a shield boost to boot.

I would like to see a real back to back of ground covered comparing a Commando Soldier under Adrenaline Rush with stimulator conduits compared to your Cloak example. I have a hard time buying that the Infiltrator can maneuver to the same distance. Sure your aren't getting targeted, but fortunately Soldier hardly cares if he is targeted under Adrenaline Rush.

As for the implication that I don't use my brain and want an instawin button... Yeah every time I hit cloak it is when 10 rockets are already tracking me, what am I doing wrong? Yes, when I hit cloak I expect rockets to turn around and blow up the enemies that launched them and for me to get 200% shields! Give me a break. This power is hugely overrated and not in line with any of the other powers for the other classes. It has a cool animation. In the end you are less effective using it.

As for the squad, so now it is an advantage that the squad takes more fire and has a higher likelihood of dying? Interesting. That reduces your effectiveness via less volume of fire on the enemy and more importantly less powers to use against them. Hiding, cloaking, and leisurely lining up shots hardly makes the class superior.

I almost like the point about duration and recharge time on Adrenaline Rush. I'll even grant you that Infiltrator has a small advantage over Soldier in speed at which you could theoretically do "easy" Widow shots. The point about the Viper is way off. Soldier is vastly superior to Infiltrator when using the Viper. You can easily engage multiple enemies under Adrenaline Rush and you get the damage bonus for the duration, unlike an Infiltrator which has a smaller bonus until decloaked. Scope slow down perhaps makes it easier to aim, but it does not improve your damage output if you can already aim at game speed.

I never claimed, nor will I, that you can't have fun with an Infiltrator. Especially playing CQB. However it is not nearly as good at CQB as Sentinel, Soldier, Vanguard. After bonus weapons and leveling it is arguable that Adept and Engineer are at least as good as well due to their superior CC. Infiltrator is perhaps superior to Soldier at CC and that isn't saying much at all. Incinerate and Hacking... that's it. Some missions you might even get to use both. Most you are stuck with Incinerate. And it does not have a short cooldown.

I think survivability is directly related to how fast you can eliminate the enemies on a level. Infiltrator has good burst damage output, so there's that... what else? I can get that other places with more survivability, or give a little up for much greater CC.

And as for the final notes... maybe that is why I have made the thread. I have played all the classes. I am wondering what evidence there is that Infiltrator is as wonderful as most people have written.  Maybe I should have simply indicted Tactical Cloak and the ammo capacity of the Mantis, but I went for the whole conspiracy that is the Infiltrator.

Modifié par capn233, 09 février 2012 - 06:45 .

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Basically, the OP's entire argument hinges on how Cloak sucks, so it's best to start there.


Tactical Cloak - might not be an "I Win Button" like Assault Armor, but the damage boost and the freedom it gives by taking aggro off you are real and significant benefits. As iOnlySignIn was saying, the best Infiltrator builds don't *depend* on Cloak, because Cloak doesn't actually kill on its own, so it doesn't always let you win on it's own. Just because you can move *anywhere* under the duration of a cloak, doesn't exempt you from the finding a smart place to go. OTOH, there ARE several battles that can be skipped entirely under cloak, (eg: Reaper IFF's gaunlet sequence). It's true that Cloak's damage boost might isn't as obscene as ARush's but it lets you do what you need to - that is, eliminate 1 specific enemy with greater impunity than any other class in the game - which, if you choose your targets properly, makes a big impact on your tactical situation... And let's not forget, Cloak lets you kill not so much by damage bonus as by making the AI forget you exist. Frankly, I appreciate Cloak's regen handicap because it prevents it from being an "I Win Button" while still allowing the ability to be potent and rewarding when used with some common sense. Even so, in solo sequences like Object Rho, it's been well documented by the community how abuseable Cloak can be in basically what are some of the most challenging fights in the game. If regen is the only real problem with Tactical Cloak, then it's something that can be easily worked around or mitigated with armor and/or bonus powers.

For the sake of comparison, Singularity is easily the 'worst' signature power in the game - not because it's useless, but because it comes with the most strings attached. OTOH, there is nothing in the game, apart from cooldowns that prevent you from activating Cloak and using it to its full potential (I think ARush and probably AArmor are the only other powers like that). Adepts make up for Singularity in their own way, but that's another subject.


Weapons - there's no doubt that the Infiltrator class is naturally skewed towards long range combat, even though the Mantis is, by all means inferior to the Widow and Viper. The classes' starting loadout is arguably weaker than the Vanguard's... but stronger than the Sentinel's. But you get Incineration - which isn't a *weapon*, but is arguably the best standalone damage power in the game, as it's also CC and can interact with the environment. The Infiltrator's starting kit arguably lets you interact a lot better with the game environment than either of the other two combat classes.

As far as bonus weapons go, each choice has the potential to drastically improve or alter your Infiltrator's playstyle - but that's equally true for any class, so I don't see the problem here. Assassin+A.Cloak make it natural for Infiltrators to go the sniper route, despite conferring a smaller bonus than Heightened ARush+Commando, because Cloak lets you snipe with impunity. OTOH, Agent+E.Cloak trade damage for versatility.

If you'd been going the pure sniper route, the Widow is a no brainer, being categorically better than the Mantis. Is it better than the Viper? For sniping, hell yes, as the Viper just doesn't OSOK (in fact, on Insanity, the Widow is a necessity for OSOK from midgame on). Is the Widow a main weapon? No, and neither is the Mantis, and really, neither is the Viper (though it comes close). The fact that the Widow can kill in one shot means that you can shoot and return to cover before cloak deactivates, whereas with the Viper that's not always possible on the higher difficulties. In this sense, the Widow gives you more survivablity and killing power. Basically, what the Widow does is make the Sniper Infiltrator better.

For any other playstyle, the Viper does a fine job as a long range gun. It just doesn't OSOK.

Infiltrators start off sucking at close combat, but Shotgun training makes them good. What it doesn't do though, is turn Infiltrators into Vanguards. Frankly, I find the OP's argument silly because you could apply the same logic to Claymore Soldiers and make those out to be useless. In reality, Shotgun Infiltrators are closer to Shotgun Engineers, in that they need to be methodical, dismantling enemies bit by bit. Engineers get more precise crowd control, but Infiltrators get a Cloak that's good for attacking and escaping.

Assault Rifle training makes Infiltrators play a lot like Soldiers... Soldiers with Tactical Cloak. I don't know, but that's kind of a big deal already... Lots of guns & ammo, mid-long range domination via cryo ammo. You lack Soldier's raw HP and ARush, but you still have cryo, the time and distance to use cryo and cloak to attack or escape. You can also reposition and return fire more easily because cloak kills aggro.

IMO all this kind of points out that the class is geared towards a more finessed or calculated tactics than say, the Soldier or Vanguard. It's also worth noting that for all the damage ARush can do, Soldiers can't power reload but Infiltrators can, so it's not like Infiltrators can't lay down heavy, sustained firepower when they have to. 


Survivability - as I was sorta touching on earlier, more a matter of player finesse than sheer stats. Infiltrators don't get much HP, but they can kill fast and have a signature power that stops all aggro and lets them move around freely and kill faster... it might not be raw durability, but if that's not survivabilty, then I don't know what is.



In the end - you still have to play semi-smart to be successful with Infiltrator... which at worst puts it in the same company as the Adept and Engineer, though really, the only truly 'dumb' playstyle in the the game involves a fairly particular brand of Sentinel. Really, the ability of Tactical Cloak to completely break off all aggro from the player, while still conferring a very large damage bonus can't be understated. The regen handicap with Cloak can be mitigated with Energy Drain and/or the Capacitor armor bits; or worked around using good positioning and tactics. I've never had to sacrifice my squad to do anything with my Infiltrators, so I totally don't know where that notion is coming from. I recognize the OP's intent for honest discussion, but I think a lot of the arguments presented overemphasize the specialties of certain classes, but downplay too much the unique advantages of the Infiltrator's class power. The Infiltrator is a very popular class and many people have an easier time with it than with other classes.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 09 février 2012 - 07:22 .

[xelander]

First off, sorry about the "using your brain" line, I phrased that very poorly, I didn't have any intention for it to sound as a remark on your person
(now that I read it again). I meant that more along the lines of the idea that I expect a tool and my skill using it to both contribute to an outcome, so I find a bit of mental game is necessary, whether it's Charge or Cloak or w/e.

I do somewhat get the impression though that you are measuring the power up to a certain expectations of yours and are failing to see it for what it is.

[quote]capn233 wrote...
...Tactical Cloak is simply not as good as Charge or even Adrenaline Rush for positioning....
[/quote]

Charge replenishes your shields, true, but you still have to take care to Charge near cover and/or the fringe elements of an enemy group. For CQC purposes Charge wins hands down, but sometimes you might want to get up straight to a cover position so you can surround the enemies and fire from all sides, especially if you're sniping or using SMG. But the real prize for me is forcing the AI to reevaluate - reshuffle targets and positions. Focus on exploring that effect of Cloaking and you might see it in a whole different light.

I find AR inferior to both in that respect, though not by such a wide margin as to compromise my gameplay or take away from my enjoyng the Soldier.

[quote]capn233 wrote...
...I would like to see a real back to back of ground covered comparing...
[/quote]

I just did a quick test: loaded a save right before the weapon pick-up on the DCS, activated the power and ran the way back; Infiltrator had Assassination Cloak, not Enhanced, with 3 tech upgrades, Soldier had Heightened AR, Infiltrator covered more distance, somewhere between 1/5th and 1/4th more; I'd have to find a more suitable test setting to measure it exactly Both had the Stimulator Conduits. With Enhanced Cloak you'd get 2, 2 and a half more seconds of walking, so - even more distance covered.

[quote]capn233 wrote...
...As for the implication that I don't use my brain and want an instawin button...
[/quote]

I already commented on that, I just want to add that, as a sniper class, taking care of the "rocketeers" from a distance shouldn't be a problem. Do you really find it that big a deal? I do have the occasional death screen (mainly because of the stagger, not the damage done by the rocket itself), but it's far and between, not often enough for me to take notice.


[quote]capn233 wrote...
...As for the squad, so now it is an advantage that the squad takes more fire and has a higher likelihood of dying?...
[/quote]

Well, as I said, I don't care either way if they live or die, I can exploit both situations. And if I miss their powers that much I usually have a minimum of 2 medi-gels, so it's not a problem to bring them back up, especially if that means that the enemies would suddenly find themselves surrounded. It seems to me that you use the Cloak primarily for a damage booster and a get-out-of-jail free card, whereas I use it for superior maneuverability/assaulting. I dare say my approach implicitly takes care of the two issues you tackle directly.

[quote]capn233 wrote...
...The point about the Viper is way off...
[/quote]

Well, a Viper Infiltrator gets 2 or 3 headshots every scope-in, not depending on ARush cooldown. All the while the cooldowns are running at normal speed, meaning you get your power ready quicker than normal in terms of game time. Power, scope-in, 2-3 rounds, scope-out, do it again and power is ready to go again. Works very well with Reave and Energy Drain. In terms of sheer damage the Soldier might be a little better (that's his thing, after all), but I suspect the margin is quite close.

[quote]capn233 wrote...
...I never claimed, nor will I, that you can't have fun with an Infiltrator. Especially playing CQB...
[/quote]

CQC is just CQC, I don't think any class is better than the other, they just handle a bit differently. Well, the Vanguard is a speed freak, but ... it's the Vanguard.

As for CC, the only time I have needed CC outside my usage of Cloak and positioning is when faced with husk rushes. Then I use Incineration Blast and Cryo Ammo to make short work of them. Come to think of it, I use Incinerate almost exclusively as an anti-Husk measure or as a finisher for around cover, very rarely otherwise.
[/quote]


I play maybe more than a third of the time as an Infiltrator, and I can be pretty fast/effective, sometimes even moreso than other classes. I think it's more of a question about your attitude toward the class / perception of its skillset. But hey, I didn't enjoy the Sentinel for more than one playthrough (or was it two?), so who am I to judge?

Finally, an inspirational video, courtesy of thisisme8. It might get you into more "tactical" mode .

Modifié par xelander, 09 février 2012 - 09:28 .

[xassantex]

they say Vanguard has the hardest learning curve, but i found Infiltrator to be equally challenging . Not just in order to survive but to play effectively. Cloak got me killed more often that i care to admit . Xelander criticized my early playing as not having a clear purpose, hahaha. Quite right . It's confusing when coming out of  Vanguard and Adept play throughs. 

What i'm getting from Capn's analysis is if played safely , the class is fine but as soon as you try to push more ( i.e. more exposed ), it becomes touchy because it's so squishy . I concur but so is Adept. 
Later on, it's a totally different ball game.
It's not about the class being less fun . On the contrary .
but it may take longer to develop the right reflexes in it  ( i'm merely taking myself as a reference of course..  o_0 )

Modifié par xassantex, 09 février 2012 - 09:08 .

[xelander]

EDIT: removed for redundancy.

In short, Tactical Cloak is exactly that - tactical, and it makes the Infiltrator into an extremely adaptable class, while trading off only a little survivabilty and damage. YMMV, but for me the added flexibility implicitly more than makes up for the loss of the latter two.

Modifié par xelander, 09 février 2012 - 09:17 .

[xassantex]

/edit

Modifié par xassantex, 09 février 2012 - 09:14 .

[Locutus_of_BORG]

xelander wrote...

capn233 wrote...
...Tactical Cloak is simply not as good as Charge or even Adrenaline Rush for positioning....

Charge replenishes your shields, true, but you still have to take care to Charge near cover and/or the fringe elements of an enemy group. For CQC purposes Charge wins hands down, but sometimes you might want to get up straight to a cover position so you can surround the enemies and fire from all sides, especially if you're sniping or using SMG. But the real prize for me is forcing the AI to reevaluate - reshuffle targets and positions. Focus on exploring that effect of Cloaking and you might see it in a whole different light.

I find AR inferior to both in that respect, though not by such a wide margin as to compromise my gameplay or take away from my enjoyng the Soldier.

capn233 wrote...
...I would like to see a real back to back of ground covered comparing...

I just did a quick test: loaded a save right before the weapon pick-up on the DCS, activated the power and ran the way back; Infiltrator had Assassination Cloak, not Enhanced, with 3 tech upgrades, Soldier had Heightened AR, Infiltrator covered more distance, somewhere between 1/5th and 1/4th more; I'd have to find a more suitable test setting to measure it exactly Both had the Stimulator Conduits. With Enhanced Cloak you'd get 2, 2 and a half more seconds of walking, so - even more distance covered.

I don't think sheer speed or distance covered is as relevant as the fact that Cloak lets you move wherever you want without being shot at.  What's important is that cloak gives you enough manueverability, which I think xelander's quick test confirms.

capn233 wrote...
...As for the squad, so now it is an advantage that the squad takes more fire and has a higher likelihood of dying?...

Well, as I said, I don't care either way if they live or die, I can exploit both situations. And if I miss their powers that much I usually have a minimum of 2 medi-gels, so it's not a problem to bring them back up, especially if that means that the enemies would suddenly find themselves surrounded. It seems to me that you use the Cloak primarily for a damage booster and a get-out-of-jail free card, whereas I use it for superior maneuverability/assaulting. I dare say my approach implicitly takes care of the two issues you tackle directly.

Again, I've never lost my squad specifically because i cloaked, so I don't understand why this is used as a serious argument against cloak.

With proper positioning, the squadmate AI is good enough to weather a few seconds of fire - which is all cloak gives you anyway - so I don't know what kind of manuevering people do to get them killed so readily. ME2 is a squad-based shooter, so you and your squad are intended to function as a unit - how far do people honestly wander off from their squad and still hope to be effective for their squad?

capn233 wrote...
...The point about the Viper is way off...

Well, a Viper Infiltrator gets 2 or 3 headshots every scope-in, not depending on ARush cooldown. All the while the cooldowns are running at normal speed, meaning you get your power ready quicker than normal in terms of game time. Power, scope-in, 2-3 rounds, scope-out, do it again and power is ready to go again. Works very well with Reave and Energy Drain. In terms of sheer damage the Soldier might be a little better (that's his thing, after all), but I suspect the margin is quite close.

I'm skeptical on the multiple-headshots-in-one-scope-in, but I agree that with power-reloading, an Infiltrator with a Viper can lay down intense firepower. It may or may not actually be as much DPS as a Soldier can put out, but it's better than what any other class can do, plus your barrage is more than likely laying down more AoE CC effects than a Soldier could ever dream of doing.

capn233 wrote...
...I never claimed, nor will I, that you can't have fun with an Infiltrator. Especially playing CQB...

CQC is just CQC, I don't think any class is better than the other, they just handle a bit differently. Well, the Vanguard is a speed freak, but ... it's the Vanguard.

As for CC, the only time I have needed CC outside my usage of Cloak and positioning is when faced with husk rushes. Then I use Incineration Blast and Cryo Ammo to make short work of them. Come to think of it, I use Incinerate almost exclusively as an anti-Husk measure or as a finisher for around cover, very rarely otherwise.

I play maybe more than a third of the time as an Infiltrator, and I can be pretty fast/effective, sometimes even moreso than other classes. I think it's more of a question about your attitude toward the class / perception of its skillset. But hey, I didn't enjoy the Sentinel for more than one playthrough (or was it two?), so who am I to judge?

Finally, an inspirational video, courtesy of thisisme8. It might get you into more "tactical" mode .

I agree. Every class has something to bring to CQC, even though in real terms, the Sentinel and Vanguard probably have the best tools. I've played every class, but I've probably made more Sheps with the Infiltrator class than any other. I've gone with the Widow, Shotguns and Assault rifles, and while I see the limitations of the class, there's really nothing about it that tells me it's definitively weaker than any other. If anything, the ease at which you can abuse its powers in Arrival kind of show it to be one of the stronger.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 09 février 2012 - 10:12 .

[goofyomnivore]

Infiltrator is the Jack of all Trades in Mass Effect 2. It can swap from close-medium-far combat at will. It has serviceable CC, damage and casting ability. Along with okay defense to great defense depending on the player (sniper dilation + cloak).

It isn't as good as a Soldier for raw damage. It isn't as good as an Engineer for CC. It isn't the CQC powerhouse of the Vanguard, but it can freely flow between all three at will and fight effectively with those tactics.

I think Widow Infiltrators are the worst class though. The Viper is the powerhouse for Infiltrators.

Modifié par strive, 09 février 2012 - 11:07 .