61 réponses à ce sujet

[capn233]

[quote]Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

Basically, the OP's entire argument hinges on how Cloak sucks, so it's best to start there.[/QUOTE]
That would be a good place to start.  Actually I wouldn't say that it sucks, but it is overrated.

[quote]OTOH, there ARE several battles that can be skipped entirely under cloak, (eg: Reaper IFF's gaunlet sequence). [/quote] I am not entirely sure what part you are talking about here.  Ok that may be a benefit.  But actual stealth has very limited usefulness in the game as a whole.  As applies to completing the missions effectively.

[quote]It's true that Cloak's damage boost might isn't as obscene as ARush's but it lets you do what you need to - that is, eliminate 1 specific enemy with greater impunity than any other class in the game - which, if you choose your targets properly, makes a big impact on your tactical situation... And let's not forget, Cloak lets you kill not so much by damage bonus as by making the AI forget you exist. Frankly, I appreciate Cloak's regen handicap because it prevents it from being an "I Win Button" while still allowing the ability to be potent and rewarding when used with some common sense. [/quote]The damage boost is also limited to the first few shots.  If you are just popping out of cover for the boost it doesn't really save you anymore than just popping out with any other class and doing the same.

AI forgetting you is helpful sometimes, but they certainly remember where you are when you decloak... even if you are some place completely different.

[quote]Even so, in solo sequences like Object Rho, it's been well documented by the community how abuseable Cloak can be in basically what are some of the most challenging fights in the game. If regen is the only real problem with Tactical Cloak, then it's something that can be easily worked around or mitigated with armor and/or bonus powers.[/quote]I will give you Arrival as playing into an Infiltrator's strengths.  But the vast majority of the game doesn't play like Arrival.

[quote]For the sake of comparison, Singularity is easily the 'worst' signature power in the game - not because it's useless, but because it comes with the most strings attached. OTOH, there is nothing in the game, apart from cooldowns that prevent you from activating Cloak and using it to its full potential (I think ARush and probably AArmor are the only other powers like that). Adepts make up for Singularity in their own way, but that's another subject.[/quote]I think that may be debatable, but assuming it is inferior to cloak the difference is the Adept has a boatload of other powers that are very good along with stupidly fast cooldowns.  Infiltrator isn't set up the same way.

[quote]Weapons[/quote]
I like Incinerate too.  You could get that as an Engineer.  It's cooldown isn't the fastest, but it is a good power.  Not the best on synthetic missions, but you have Hacking (which incidentally an Engineer also has).  So no guns would you rather be Infiltrator or Engineer, which is strongest?  Even spot a sniper rifle to the Infiltrator...

[quote]Bonus[/quote]
I don't see the problem firing burst weapons on any of the other classes from popping out of cover.  Your cloak drops soon after you fire it anyway, it is a marginal advantage when you are using it as a damage boost.

Unfortunately with a lot of the bonus weapons you end up becoming a poor man's Soldier or poor man's Vangaurd.  And that is the heart of the issue... "poor man's."

[quote]Survivability - as I was sorta touching on earlier, more a matter of player finesse than sheer stats. Infiltrators don't get much HP, but they can kill fast and have a signature power that stops all aggro and lets them move around freely and kill faster... it might not be raw durability, but if that's not survivabilty, then I don't know what is.[/quote]They don't kill as fast as a Soldier with less survivability.  Don't really kill like a Vanguard either.  Don't CC like Adept or Engineer while being about as fragile.

[quote]Final thoughts...[/quote]
I know many people play it and like it.  I like playing it and am even having fun this time.  BUT I am questioning the overall effectiveness of this class over the game.  Compared to the other classes.  I also realize why people have an easy time with it.  I've already made an analogy about that.  I do not think ease of play is the same as effectiveness.  Frankly the easiest time I had on insanity was Widow Soldier.  Which also happens to be my least favorite "class."

Ok author change

[quote]xelander wrote...

Charge replenishes your shields, true, but you still have to take care to Charge near cover and/or the fringe
elements of an enemy group. For CQC purposes Charge wins hands down, but sometimes you might want to get up straight to a cover position so you can surround the enemies and fire from all sides, especially if you're
sniping or using SMG. But the real prize for me is forcing the AI to reevaluate - reshuffle targets and positions. Focus on exploring that effect of Cloaking and you might see it in a whole different light.[/QUOTE]
I don't really find this to be the case.  Cloak and they do instantly turn away and maybe fire at the squad, decloak and they more or less spin around to face you again.  Sure while you are cloaked you can sneak up on someone and shoot them in the back, but I think the value of doing this in this game has been exaggerated.

[QUOTE]I just did a quick test: loaded a save right before the weapon pick-up on the DCS,
activated the power and ran the way back; Infiltrator had Assassination Cloak, not Enhanced, with 3 tech upgrades, Soldier had Heightened AR, Infiltrator covered more distance, somewhere between 1/5th and 1/4th
more; I'd have to find a more suitable test setting to measure it exactly Both had the Stimulator Conduits. With Enhanced Cloak you'd get 2, 2 and a half more seconds of walking, so - even more distance
covered.[/QUOTE]
Sprinting or just walking?  Since Soldier has the bonus for sprinting, biggest with Commando.  Er I mean "storming."

[QUOTE]I already commented on that, I just want to add that, as a sniper class, taking care of the "rocketeers" from a distance shouldn't be a problem. Do you really find it that big a deal? I do have the occasional death
screen (mainly because of the stagger, not the damage done by the rocket itself), but it's far and between, not often enough for me to take notice. [/QUOTE] Lot of spawn points that you want to bypass have heavies at the rear of them.  No it isn't a huge deal but it would be nice if cloak really cloaked you.  It is an even smaller deal when you don't use cloak...

[QUOTE]Well, as I said, I don't care either way if they live or die, I can exploit both situations. And if I miss their powers that much I usually have a minimum of 2 medi-gels, so it's not a problem to bring them back up,
especially if that means that the enemies would suddenly find themselves surrounded. It seems to me that you use the Cloak primarily for a damage booster and a get-out-of-jail free card, whereas I use it for superior maneuverability/assaulting. I dare say my approach implicitly takes care of the two issues you tackle directly.[/QUOTE]
I try to get the extra $100 each time I find a First Aid kit.

Surrounding the enemies sometimes gives you a benefit, level dependent of course as many are very linear anyway.  But this isn't a "how to play Infiltrator" thread.  The question is if Infiltrator flanks enemies better than the other classes when they are also played "correctly."  Or even if it does, are the other tradeoffs worthwhile for that bit of advantage?

[quote]Viper...[/quote]
You can kill multiple enemies under Hardened Adrenaline Rush with the Viper as a soldier.  The 100% damage boost as well as the time slowdown is a help.  Additionally, the 50% damage reduction means you have more time to fire the Viper at them.  Also Reave and Energy Drain are not Infiltrator powers.  This thread was about the base class   I would agree that looking at the Viper by itself though the Infiltrator is close to Soldier, but second. 
I don't think on the whole the advantage is Infiltrator though.

[quote]Final thoughts[/quote]
I'm sure you are effective with Infiltrator.  This thread isn't to call anyone out.  It is about whether someone is really
equally or more effective playing Infiltrator compared to the other classes.

It takes too long to try to reply... maybe I am talking in a circle.

Infiltrator doesn't suck, people who like it don't suck.  I am not trying to convince anyone not to like the class.  I like it.  I am questioning its place on the "hierarchy."

Modifié par capn233, 09 février 2012 - 11:41 .

[Locutus_of_BORG]

capn233 wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

Basically, the OP's entire argument hinges on how Cloak sucks, so it's best to start there.

That would be a good place to start.  Actually I wouldn't say that it sucks, but it is overrated.

OTOH, there ARE several battles that can be skipped entirely under cloak, (eg: Reaper IFF's gaunlet sequence).

I am not entirely sure what part you are talking about here.  Ok that may be a benefit.  But actual stealth has very limited usefulness in the game as a whole.  As applies to completing the missions effectively.

Specifically, I'm referring to the long sequence right before you reach Legion at the Reaper core. You can walk right through that whole section without fighting if you want. Another example is on Tali's LM, right before Rael's corpse - just cloak, walk through the door where all the Geth come out and you're done. Obviously it's more of an exploit than a proper stealth mechanic, but it's there to use if you so choose.

Weapons

I like Incinerate too.  You could get that as an Engineer.  It's cooldown isn't the fastest, but it is a good power.  Not the best on synthetic missions, but you have Hacking (which incidentally an Engineer also has).  So no guns would you rather be Infiltrator or Engineer, which is strongest?  Even spot a sniper rifle to the Infiltrator...

Bonus

I don't see the problem firing burst weapons on any of the other classes from popping out of cover.  Your cloak drops soon after you fire it anyway, it is a marginal advantage when you are using it as a damage boost.

Unfortunately with a lot of the bonus weapons you end up becoming a poor man's Soldier or poor man's Vangaurd.  And that is the heart of the issue... "poor man's."

I wouldn't call it a poor man's anything, just different. Taking up a shotgun doesn't make an Infiltrator a Vanguard. Infiltrators do sneak attacks, Vanguards do frontal assaults. Vanguards are supposed to get shot at, Infiltrators can avoid fire altogether.

Survivability - as I was sorta touching on earlier, more a matter of player finesse than sheer stats. Infiltrators don't get much HP, but they can kill fast and have a signature power that stops all aggro and lets them move around freely and kill faster... it might not be raw durability, but if that's not survivabilty, then I don't know what is.

They don't kill as fast as a Soldier with less survivability.  Don't really kill like a Vanguard either.  Don't CC like Adept or Engineer while being about as fragile.

Final thoughts...

I know many people play it and like it.  I like playing it and am even having fun this time.  BUT I am questioning the overall effectiveness of this class over the game.  Compared to the other classes.  I also realize why people have an easy time with it.  I've already made an analogy about that.  I do not think ease of play is the same as effectiveness.  Frankly the easiest time I had on insanity was Widow Soldier.  Which also happens to be my least favorite "class."

/snip

Infiltrator doesn't suck, people who like it don't suck.  I am not trying to convince anyone not to like the class.  I like it.  I am questioning its place on the "hierarchy."

I recognize that your intention isn't to offend. But you wanted a discussion, and I think everyone's already laid out the objective facts, while a lot of what you're saying is a matter of personal taste. The fact is, I think a lot of what makes a class 'effective' for one person is subjective and there isn't much of a way to weigh that. For example, Infiltrator survivablity.. well that depends on how well you can avoid being hit, because that's just how Infiltrators work - as opposed to Vanguards who basically get to instantly regen every charge, or Adepts who can CC and combo everything. Or Shotgun Infiltrators being poor man's Vanguards - they aren't, they're a totally different animal in my view. Since ME2 is a single-player player game, there isn't really much of a standard to judge a class's effectiveness by because everyone plays differently.

It's probably best not to think of the classes in terms of an objective hierarchy, because I'm not sure it really exists.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 10 février 2012 - 01:05 .

[HolyAvenger]

strive wrote...


I think Widow Infiltrators are the worst class though.

What is this I don't even:blink:

[capn233]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...
Specifically, I'm referring to the long sequence right before you reach Legion at the Reaper core. You can walk right through that whole section without fighting if you want. Another example is on Tali's LM, right before Rael's corpse - just cloak, walk through the door where all the Geth come out and you're done. Obviously it's more of an exploit than a proper stealth mechanic, but it's there to use if you so choose.

You are right, that is into 'sploit territory.  However, on Tali's mission you can do the same with several other classes, if not all of them.  I am still unclear how you do that on Reaper IFF.  I thought you had to actually kill the last group before you could proceed.  I suppose I haven't actually tried it there.

I wouldn't call it a poor man's anything, just different. Taking up a shotgun doesn't make an Infiltrator a Vanguard. Infiltrators do sneak attacks, Vanguards do frontal assaults. Vanguards are supposed to get shot at, Infiltrators can avoid fire altogether.

The question is still effectiveness.  Say you pick the shotgun.  How much improved are you compared to even when you were using the Shuriken?  This is the very heart of the matter.  I am not talking about style, I am trying to get to effectiveness.  You get little reward in the game for sneaking around.  Outside of some examples where you can skip some fights, the game isn't really built around stealth at all.  Even so, I don't think those few occaisions really trump the rest of the game.  It is patently obvious to me that an Infiltrator with a Shotgun is not a Vanguard.  That's part of what I have been getting at... is the different "style" you get as effective?

But you wanted a discussion, and I think everyone's already laid out the objective facts, while a lot of what you're saying is a matter of personal taste.

I was indeed hoping for some objective facts.  I have been treated to a lot of tips on how to best utilize the Infiltrator.  Maybe this thread will be of use to someone out there...

Modifié par capn233, 10 février 2012 - 03:46 .

[HolyAvenger]

OK, how would you like to measure effectiveness? Speed of killing? Encounters finished most quickly? Effectiveness is not a hard stat that can be easily quantified.

(Also, I don't think there's any hierarchy of classes, just what people find more or less to their own personal tastes).

[xelander]

capn233 wrote...
Sprinting or just walking?  Since Soldier has the bonus for sprinting, biggest with Commando.  Er I mean "storming."

Sprinting until you can't, then just walking, with both classes. Though I might get farther with the sprint a little, walk a little trick. I'll have to check later.

This thread is full of tips on how to play Infiltrator, because any skillset needs to be utilized the right way to get the best outcome. Imagine if I say the Vanguard sucks, because I'm playing it as a cover-camper.

Techincally, if you say that a class is the worst, you'd need a specific parameters, along which you can compare all the classes quantitavely. So, which ones should they be?

Besides, there is a qualitative element to each gameplay that is strictly a personal preference. Maybe you like to sow chaos on the battlefield, so you might a figure a controller Engineer the best. Or you live for the screen of red veins, then you'd figure it's best to be a happy-go-Charging Vanguard.And so on, and so forth. As I said, I like the tactical possibilites that the Infiltrator opens up, that's why I've played it more than any other class.

Damn, you're tempting me to fire up an NG+ classic Infiltrator, and I still haven't finished my completionist Reaver Assassin run in preparation for ME3.

[goofyomnivore]

HolyAvenger wrote...

strive wrote...


I think Widow Infiltrators are the worst class though.

What is this I don't even:blink:

Soldier is much better with it than an Infiltrator and the Infiltrator just has a SMG and Pistol to fall back on.
It doesn't mean it isn't fun, but I think it is an inferior set up especially to the Viper.

OK, how would you like to measure effectiveness? Speed of killing?
Encounters finished most quickly? Effectiveness is not a hard stat that
can be easily quantified.

I always judge it by a combination of killing speed and health damage taken. The Widow Infiltrator takes almost no damage, but kills slower than almost any other build from my experience with it.

Modifié par strive, 10 février 2012 - 02:45 .

[HolyAvenger]

The opportunity cost of a Widow Soldier is a Revenant Soldier, which is too much for me. That aside I disagree that a soldier is better. I can consistently headshot with a Infiltrator thanks to passive scope slowdown (instead of having to spam AR). This speeds up almost all combat encounters as now I'm OSOK'ing mooks more quickly than as a soldier (where I'm having to spam AR to get those consistent headshots). I barely even need my other guns.

You find a Widow Infiltrator slower than a Widow soldier. I've no doubt my experience would be the reverse. So there's no quantifiable consistent measure of effectiveness...

[Locutus_of_BORG]

capn233 wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...
Specifically, I'm referring to the long sequence right before you reach Legion at the Reaper core. You can walk right through that whole section without fighting if you want. Another example is on Tali's LM, right before Rael's corpse - just cloak, walk through the door where all the Geth come out and you're done. Obviously it's more of an exploit than a proper stealth mechanic, but it's there to use if you so choose.

You are right, that is into 'sploit territory.  However, on Tali's mission you can do the same with several other classes, if not all of them.  I am still unclear how you do that on Reaper IFF.  I thought you had to actually kill the last group before you could proceed.  I suppose I haven't actually tried it there.

You don't. Back in my noob days I did that trick with my Widow Infiltrator and my Sentinel... on Normal.

I wouldn't call it a poor man's anything, just different. Taking up a shotgun doesn't make an Infiltrator a Vanguard. Infiltrators do sneak attacks, Vanguards do frontal assaults. Vanguards are supposed to get shot at, Infiltrators can avoid fire altogether.

The question is still effectiveness.  Say you pick the shotgun.  How much improved are you compared to even when you were using the Shuriken?  This is the very heart of the matter.  I am not talking about style, I am trying to get to effectiveness.  You get little reward in the game for sneaking around.  Outside of some examples where you can skip some fights, the game isn't really built around stealth at all.  Even so, I don't think those few occaisions really trump the rest of the game.  It is patently obvious to me that an Infiltrator with a Shotgun is not a Vanguard.  That's part of what I have been getting at... is the different "style" you get as effective?

Well comparing my Shotgun Infiltrator to his pre-DCS self, I'd say the improvement was immense. Being able to lug a GPS around meant I could quickly sneak up on and OSOK any regular mook and then run away before his buddies turned on me (since the GPS is chargeable while under a cloak). I was also then able to take the Locust as a backup midrange gun (no longer needed an SMG for CQC)  and I no longer had to rely on my Viper so much to soften up clusters of enemies. No disrespect to Shuriken/Tempest fans, but shotgun training let me do proper CQC by giving me some *real* close-in firepower.

But you wanted a discussion, and I think everyone's already laid out the objective facts, while a lot of what you're saying is a matter of personal taste.

I was indeed hoping for some objective facts.  I have been treated to a lot of tips on how to best utilize the Infiltrator.  Maybe this thread will be of use to someone out there...

I guess that's true. I suppose for a lot of us who've been on these boards for years, it's easy to take for granted that we've picked up a lot of obscure knowledge comes from all over the place. Eg: skippable battles.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 10 février 2012 - 03:17 .

[goofyomnivore]

You find a Widow Infiltrator slower than a Widow soldier. I've no doubt my experience would be the reverse. So there's no quantifiable consistent measure of effectiveness...

Math? The Soldier outclasses the Infiltrator in defense, damage and 'slow down'. I don't really like either of them too much, but the Soldier has better numbers and versatility.

[Sarah_SR2]

Okay I'm not going to comment on the merits of each class regarding damage output and survivability etc. because this has been discussed to the death here and also I don't tend to analyse the game as deeply as that. I just pick a squad, load out and then dive in and start shooting things! As long as the bad guys hit the dirt then I don't care really! ) I played as an infilitrator a few months back, completed the game with him and found it to be an excellent class. I used the assassination cloak all the time to either move around the map undetected or to run in closer an kill an unwitting opponent. I also liked it that the sniper slowdown has no cooldown on it. I'll admit that the soldier "feels" more potent, but the infiltrator has more of a variety to its skills base and I found that being more squishy made the game a bigger challenge. I think that the infiltrator is a great class and one I'd certainly play again.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

strive wrote...

You find a Widow Infiltrator slower than a Widow soldier. I've no doubt my experience would be the reverse. So there's no quantifiable consistent measure of effectiveness...

Math? The Soldier outclasses the Infiltrator in defense, damage and 'slow down'. I don't really like either of them too much, but the Soldier has better numbers and versatility.

Killing speed and Health damage taken don't tell the whole story.

With "Killing Speed", we can only really look at DPS. When look at it that way, the Soldier is easily the best class in the game, though it's not the only class that can OSOK. In contrast with the Infiltrator, Soldiers almost always kill while 'under duress' (aka under fire), while Infiltrators can usually do it under the safety of cloak, which may or may not result in better performance for some people. The majority of players probably kill as fast or faster with Soldiers than Infiltrators, but it's still something that differs a lot between different people.

Damage taken is harder to judge. The basic health stats of the two classes are pretty different, so it's not really reasonable to judge by the in-game meter. Also, the Soldier is usually under fire all the time while fighting, while the Infiltrator can cloak, so depending on how a person plays, it's theoretically possible to take no damage at all as an Infiltrator. In this case, should an Infiltrator be considered more survivable than a Soldier just based on that fact? That would be massively oversimplifying things.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 10 février 2012 - 04:40 .

[goofyomnivore]

If you activate AR as you go out of cover to aim you can shoot and get back in cover before the bullet hits you due to time dilation. (Sniping with the Widow).

You can take near to no damage in the game with almost any build/class. However what is worse taking moderate health damage and finishing in 15 minutes or taking no damage and finishing in 25 or 30? I'd rather have the 15 minute build in a health regenerating game.

Modifié par strive, 10 février 2012 - 04:42 .

[Kronner]

I strongly disagree with the OP. Infiltrator is easily one of the most powerful classes in the game.

[goofyomnivore]

I'd rate them; Sentinel>Vanguard>Engineer>Soldier>Infiltrator>Adept assuming no DLC. I think the Infiltrator is a very useful class, but I think it is much better with a Viper than Widow with how its time dilation works.

[Sarah_SR2]

^^ Yes I love the viper and it was great using it with my infiltrator. But, it's even better with heightened adreneline rush )

[capn233]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

Well comparing my Shotgun Infiltrator to his pre-DCS self, I'd say the improvement was immense. Being able to lug a GPS around meant I could quickly sneak up on and OSOK any regular mook and then run away before his buddies turned on me (since the GPS is chargeable while under a cloak). I was also then able to take the Locust as a backup midrange gun (no longer needed an SMG for CQC)  and I no longer had to rely on my Viper so much to soften up clusters of enemies. No disrespect to Shuriken/Tempest fans, but shotgun training let me do proper CQC by giving me some *real* close-in firepower.

CQB Shuriken is pretty damn effective in its own right.  But sure, I will grant you that the class is improved after DCC.  However, all the classes are improved as well.  Well, a few aren't as improved.  That gap is narrowed perhaps.  You lose the advantage of more range versatility in weapons compared to the pure caster classes though.  Dependent on their weapon loadout of course.

As for what Strive is saying, of course I agree about Widow Soldier, I said that earlier as well.  I don't know that it is the most powerful, but it is certainly moreso than Infiltrator.  Widow and Vindicator at range with Adrenaline Rush... Personally that was my least favorite playthrough.  At least with Infiltrator you can turn invisible for the sake of fun.  So on that count I am with you Avenger, I think Revenant Soldier is much more fun so if that is what you are after I don't recommend doing a Widow Soldier run.

All in all this has been interesting.  More feathers have been ruffled than I expected.  Perhaps it was the topic title or some of the language I used.  More support for my whacky idea as well.  I didn't expect that number to be non-zero.

Later on I will go back to my new Infiltrator game and play DCC

Modifié par capn233, 10 février 2012 - 07:20 .

[Spinotech]

Kronner wrote...

I strongly disagree with the OP. Infiltrator is easily one of the most powerful classes in the game.

Judging by the speculation on the ME3 powers and abilities thread, it sounds like the infiltrator will be more powerful than ever.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

capn233 wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

Well comparing my Shotgun Infiltrator to his pre-DCS self, I'd say the improvement was immense. Being able to lug a GPS around meant I could quickly sneak up on and OSOK any regular mook and then run away before his buddies turned on me (since the GPS is chargeable while under a cloak). I was also then able to take the Locust as a backup midrange gun (no longer needed an SMG for CQC)  and I no longer had to rely on my Viper so much to soften up clusters of enemies. No disrespect to Shuriken/Tempest fans, but shotgun training let me do proper CQC by giving me some *real* close-in firepower.

CQB Shuriken is pretty damn effective in its own right.  But sure, I will grant you that the class is improved after DCC.  However, all the classes are improved as well.  Well, a few aren't as improved.  That gap is narrowed perhaps.  You lose the advantage of more range versatility in weapons compared to the pure caster classes though.  Dependent on their weapon loadout of course.

Well, you were asking specifically about how much improvement an Infiltrator would get from a bonus weapon, so I focused on that.

The Shuriken and Tempest are good weapons for sure, but if we're honest, they don't compare at all to any of the shotguns in CQC. All shotguns can kill any standard mook within 1-2 solid hits + 1-2 melee hits and they stun-lock to boot. SMGs take many hits (usually more than a clip) and hardly stun at all (I think the Tempest staggers a tiny bit).. In general, SGs are the deadliest weapons available for CQC. For the SG Infiltrator, the GPS gives you something that hits hard from close-mid range (single shot bust most shields, charged shot OSOKs most mooks), yet minimizes the time you need to spend out of cover or cloak (you can charge it while cloaked, but even quick peeks out of cover to do single shots is very efficient). The GPS is pretty much the ideal gun for a an SG Infiltrator.

I'm not clear what you mean about "less ranged versatility in weapons compared to pure caster classes". In my example of the SG Infiltrator, you still have a Mantis/Viper to play with, vs. SG Adepts/Engineers/Sentinels who'd otherwise lack the 4th gun.

[capn233]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

I'm not clear what you mean about "less ranged versatility in weapons compared to pure caster classes". In my example of the SG Infiltrator, you still have a Mantis/Viper to play with, vs. SG Adepts/Engineers/Sentinels who'd otherwise lack the 4th gun.

Yes Infiltrator already has that advantage, which can be lost to the other classes when they go to DCC and pick up AR or SR training.  So what I meant was that is an advantage the Infiltrator potentially loses to the other classes after DCC.  This also relates to my observation that gaps between classes narrow towards the end, for the most part.

Shotgun effectiveness is limited by the rate of fire and the shot pattern.  Shot-melee-shot is certainly decent, shotgun dependent of course... but I am not sold that it is hugely more effective than dumping the mag of the Shuriken into an enemy's head.  Eviscerator is practically the only SG that can even land all of its shot on the head up close, and that does make a difference.  And of course most of the shotguns are nearly hopeless outside of 2m range.  Now if you are aiming COM with the SMG's point blank, sure they might not be as good as the shotguns.  And of course Claymore does not figure into this discussion (for the most part) as Infiltrator isn't taking it.

As for overall effectiveness, that would be difficult to choose between Shotgun-Locust-Viper and Shuriken (or Tempest) - Widow.

But again, I wasn't trying to rank various loadouts of the Infiltrator among themselves.  The point was more specifically that I think Vanilla Infiltrator is the weakest class (of the vanilla classes).  This is of course through the eyes of a PC player.

Modifié par capn233, 10 février 2012 - 10:32 .

[Locutus_of_BORG]

capn233 wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

I'm not clear what you mean about "less ranged versatility in weapons compared to pure caster classes". In my example of the SG Infiltrator, you still have a Mantis/Viper to play with, vs. SG Adepts/Engineers/Sentinels who'd otherwise lack the 4th gun.

Yes Infiltrator already has that advantage, which can be lost to the other classes when they go to DCC and pick up AR or SR training.  So what I meant was that is an advantage the Infiltrator potentially loses to the other classes after DCC.  This also relates to my observation that gaps between classes narrow towards the end, for the most part.

Yeah, I was thinking you might've meant that, but that bit of your last post was really oddly worded.

Shotgun effectiveness is limited by the rate of fire and the shot pattern.  Shot-melee-shot is certainly decent, shotgun dependent of course... but I am not sold that it is hugely more effective than dumping the mag of the Shuriken into an enemy's head.  Eviscerator is practically the only SG that can even land all of its shot on the head up close, and that does make a difference.  And of course most of the shotguns are nearly hopeless outside of 2m range.  Now if you are aiming COM with the SMG's point blank, sure they might not be as good as the shotguns.  And of course Claymore does not figure into this discussion (for the most part) as Infiltrator isn't taking it.

As for overall effectiveness, that would be difficult to choose between Shotgun-Locust-Viper and Shuriken (or Tempest) - Widow.

But again, I wasn't trying to rank various loadouts of the Infiltrator among themselves.  The point was more specifically that I think Vanilla Infiltrator is the weakest class (of the vanilla classes).  This is of course through the eyes of a PC player.

As you've said, with SGs there is usually the issue of getting in close enough to make your shots count. Of course, getting in close isn't much of an issue with Tactical Cloak. But landing all projectiles on target is especially easy with the GPS, which.. well, if you've had a chance to use it, you'd know. The thing shoots almost like a rifle. Moreover, a charged GPS can OSOK regular insanity mooks with a buttshot, nevermind a headshot and it can do so whether at point blank or even from quite a fair distance away. Even an accurate regular shot can do in 1 sec. what would otherwise take a whole clip and multiple seconds to do with an SMG (that is, completely strip the shield of a regular mook). What this means for the SG Infiltrator is less time out in the open trying to unload an SMG into somebody and more time behind cover, cloaking and otherwise manuevering.

I focus on the SG Infiltrator because it's possibly the most novel playstyle for the class, and I focus on the GPS b/c I personally think it's the best gun for SG Infiltrators to use in CQC. Ironically, the GPS's drawback was intended to be slowness and extra exposure to return fire (the gun fires upon release of trigger button, rather than push, making it inherently slow; charging shots also pops you out of cover), but Infiltrators largely circumvent these issues with Cloak (you'd hardly ever want to use a charged shot outside of Cloak attack anyway). Even so, popping your naked head out to lob a single GPS shot takes less time than unloading a clip of any SMG, so really, you'd be shot less anyway. Did I mention that the GPS staggers heavily on impact? It really does provide everything the class needs in CQC.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 11 février 2012 - 01:33 .

[capn233]

Interesting. The only DLC guns I have are the Locust (which is really from Kasumi's) and the Eviscerator. Balance on the DLC guns is a little different but since for the most part you can't get them on the bulk of the classes I was more or less "ignoring" them for the vanilla characters. It is an interesting perspective on the GPS compared to what some write about it.

As for getting close enough, you still have to get close to use something like the Shuriken to max effectiveness, even if it is more "ok" further out than most of the shotguns. At any rate, for the purpose of discussion you probably can predict that I don't think cloak offers a significant benefit there compared to Charge, Adrenaline Rush, Tech Armor or even Drone. Or if it is stagger you're after you can just hit someone with Pull or Throw, even if they are protected (which is actually not bad because of fast cooldown). And of course there are many places where you simply need a little sprinting to close, or just waiting for the enemies to come to you.

I had some crazy ideas that I might post up a little later. I haven't decided.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Well I've never read anything overtly bad about the GPS, other than how it's weird - which it is. Maybe things have changed since most of the oldtimers aren't as active anymore, but it was a staple for caster classes when I started playing, so it should still be a pretty regularly used gun amongst the BSN.

The GPS is actually fully effective well beyond the optimal range for the Shuriken. It is honestly a weird-azz gun.

It's true that you can stagger someone with a melee or a random power and then shoot them. Or you could shoot them with a gun that staggers and still have multiple, redundant ways to stagger and cc them available to use. Fast Pulls and Throws aren't available to the Infiltrator, so I don't see how that applies - however, this principle I've stated applies to all classes.

Again, Cloak basically lets you do things without getting aggro'd. Exactly how that stacks up with the other 5 class powers and their distinct, myriad nuances, I think is mostly subjective.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 11 février 2012 - 02:45 .

[ryoldschool]

Well, if nothing else this thread made me start another run with infiltrator from scratch. I'm going to try to use flashbang to get ready to throw grenades in ME3.

[capn233]

I am not saying that the GPS is overtly bad. I am saying most people claim it is nice to use due to its increased range, not really the best for CQB. However, much that I have read applies to the Vanguard class. I wouldn't doubt GPS is effective past the range of the Shuriken. Discussing the balance of DLC weapons was something I hoped to avoid, and probably has been the topic of many threads already.

Pull and Throw directly relate to your ability to close on enemies by reducing volume of fire. Cloak is not the only way to close on enemies. This thread is about comparing the classes and that is what I have been doing. Closing on the enemy without getting hit is not terrible, especially if you aren't a tank or can't distract them. If you can tank the hits anyway, just run into the barrage. Or run cover to cover to tank what you can.

Cloak gives you stealth... which unfortunately is of fairly limited value in this game. The ultimate irony is that in the one situation in which there is an achievement for stealth, Cloak will instantly alert everyone and you will fail.