61 réponses à ce sujet

[jeweledleah]

Shepard is a great soldier, but Shepard is not a god. there are some deaths that are just negligence and harder to role play unless you are roleplaying a Shepard who didn't take resurrection well and contrary to Miranda's claim is not exactly all there. but say, Shepard takes sides in loyalty conflicts and doesn't manage to convince the other party? so you have 2 disloyal squadmembers. how is Shepard supposed to know that disloyal=dies to a stray collector, or grows squishier for some reason and gets crushed by a falling beam (while loyalty makes them immune) Shepard accidentaly lets Morinth go (is not as suave as they could be) but still trusts Samara, the very strong biotic to hold a bubble she suggested in a first place? how is Shepard supposed to know that one of the squadies will decide to step back and get caught by the swarms?

or Shepard who cannot bring themselves to lie about evidence at Tali's trial, someone who beleives that truth must come out. but they still trust Tali to be the best tech they know. how are they supposed to know that that will make her get hit by a rocket.

we the players know. Shepard? doesn't. sure its meta gaming, but it doesn't mean Shepard is deliberately killing of people, they are still trying to get the mission done (for the most part - like I said, you could be playing a suicidal, emotionally disturbed Shepard who never wanted to be ressurected in a first place, and they don't really care whom they drag along with them)

and then - there's players who genuinely trying to do their best, but becasue theydon't know all the ins and outs of the suicide mission calculations, becasue they might think that getting IFF is a first priority, we'll deal with personal issues afterwards... they end up losing people naturaly. and keep that save as the honest one.

in other words - keep an open mind?

[KotorEffect3]

Killing people deliberately is a form of meta gaming and I never let people die on the SM on purpose. Though I do understand why some people would because they want to see how things may play out differently in ME 3. For example I could imagine the quarians being less happy to see Shepard in ME 3 if Tali dies during the SM. I could also see cerberus being more difficult to bring down without casualites if Miranda doesn't live.

[Exia001]

I just can't believe the OP cannot see the difference between a game and reality

[Rip504]

JeffZero wrote...

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Well, we shouldn't need to, but since the "suicide" mission is that by name only, it is virtually impossible to have any varying results without deliberately playing dumb/killing off people.

As any other will tell you, I do it for variables (and roleplay, though that's a minor one). See what comes with ME3 and then go with it.

Also this, yes.

Yes and as the OP will tell you,so do they. Or at least understand.
But in your main playthrough the one that's means the most to you,does it make sense to intentionally kill people?

I understand the OP. Yes in my main "Cannon" Shepard I save all lives,because it is just to simple not to.
In my many other playthroughs I mix it up for different outcomes in ME3.
I have a Male Paragon,where only a Loyal Female crew has survived. 1 with only Tali & Grunt* surviving,and a few others with random deaths. Although the first time I play ME3,I will import the save that has my entire living & Loyal crew.

Modifié par Rip504, 09 février 2012 - 09:38 .

[Lukeskymac]

Heraxion wrote...

ODST 3 wrote...
 Quite right. Sometimes we add a little drama to our Shepard's lives without them asking for it.

Like how i romance Liara in ME1 and then Tali in ME2. BRING ON THE DRAMA IN ME3!

AFAIK Liara takes it pretty well in Lair of the Shadow Broker and says that she won't "add to the competition".

[JeffZero]

jeweledleah for president plz.

[Goldendroid]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

This is a game and people can choose who they want in the next game and not. If someone wants most of their squad to be dead then let them. It ain't my save being effect.

Thus metagaming their way through. Again, the focus of the post was to ask why blind playthrough people would kill someone upon realisation they could, rather than make sure they survive. If you do it accidentally, then that is fine, but the point of purposely killing someone without knowing of what would happen in ME3 is sort of against the whole "in the moment" gaming is it not?

[Heraxion]

Lukeskymac wrote...

Heraxion wrote...

ODST 3 wrote...
 Quite right. Sometimes we add a little drama to our Shepard's lives without them asking for it.

Like how i romance Liara in ME1 and then Tali in ME2. BRING ON THE DRAMA IN ME3!

AFAIK Liara takes it pretty well in Lair of the Shadow Broker and says that she won't "add to the competition".

But how will Tali take it in ME3 if i dump her????

Buckets of Drama!

Edit: I'm just joking, i would never be so mean.

Modifié par Heraxion, 09 février 2012 - 09:39 .

[Exia001]

Goldendroid wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

This is a game and people can choose who they want in the next game and not. If someone wants most of their squad to be dead then let them. It ain't my save being effect.

Thus metagaming their way through. Again, the focus of the post was to ask why blind playthrough people would kill someone upon realisation they could, rather than make sure they survive. If you do it accidentally, then that is fine, but the point of purposely killing someone without knowing of what would happen in ME3 is sort of against the whole "in the moment" gaming is it not?

What does it matter if it is, you're not gonna know what other people do, just do what you want and let them do the same

[Rip504]

Metagaming is not the Devil.!.

[Goldendroid]

jeweledleah wrote...

Shepard is a great soldier, but Shepard is not a god. there are some deaths that are just negligence and harder to role play unless you are roleplaying a Shepard who didn't take resurrection well and contrary to Miranda's claim is not exactly all there. but say, Shepard takes sides in loyalty conflicts and doesn't manage to convince the other party? so you have 2 disloyal squadmembers. how is Shepard supposed to know that disloyal=dies to a stray collector, or grows squishier for some reason and gets crushed by a falling beam (while loyalty makes them immune) Shepard accidentaly lets Morinth go (is not as suave as they could be) but still trusts Samara, the very strong biotic to hold a bubble she suggested in a first place? how is Shepard supposed to know that one of the squadies will decide to step back and get caught by the swarms?

or Shepard who cannot bring themselves to lie about evidence at Tali's trial, someone who beleives that truth must come out. but they still trust Tali to be the best tech they know. how are they supposed to know that that will make her get hit by a rocket.

we the players know. Shepard? doesn't. sure its meta gaming, but it doesn't mean Shepard is deliberately killing of people, they are still trying to get the mission done (for the most part - like I said, you could be playing a suicidal, emotionally disturbed Shepard who never wanted to be ressurected in a first place, and they don't really care whom they drag along with them)

and then - there's players who genuinely trying to do their best, but becasue theydon't know all the ins and outs of the suicide mission calculations, becasue they might think that getting IFF is a first priority, we'll deal with personal issues afterwards... they end up losing people naturaly. and keep that save as the honest one.

in other words - keep an open mind?

I have mentioned that deaths that come from accidents or such events are not the focus of my argument. 

I should really reword it to "helping as many people as possible survive" instead of "saving every squadmate"

[AdmiralCheez]

Metagaming aside, in all my legit playthroughs (minus the "worst import ever lol"), I could never intentionally kill my precious babies.

But that's just me. There are a lot of reasons to off characters in the SM:

1. Dramatic effect. The situation seems more desperate and things get more personal for Shepard if she loses people she cares about. This is not true with me, since any drama would be artificial and by my hand. I'd just feel like a jerk for sacrificing my precious babies.

2. Realism. Going through a mission like that and getting everyone out alive is a bit of a stretch for some people. Even if Shepard's the ultimate hero. Even if her team was made of the best of the best. This isn't an issue for me, since it was a rough and fun fight, the victory was delicious, and hey, sometimes being the ultimate hero is fun.

3. Experimentation. Seriously, there's content in ME3 you'll never see if nobody died. Some people want to see the consequences; they want the challenge that comes with limited allies and resources. Me? Apart from my "worst import ever," bring on the YouTubes.

4. Sometimes, you just really, really hate a character. And that's the nice thing about playing God: God gets to smite the people he doesn't like. I think this is awfully petty (and I don't hate any squadmate enough to do it), but to each their own.

[BatmanPWNS]

Goldendroid wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

This is a game and people can choose who they want in the next game and not. If someone wants most of their squad to be dead then let them. It ain't my save being effect.

Thus metagaming their way through. Again, the focus of the post was to ask why blind playthrough people would kill someone upon realisation they could, rather than make sure they survive. If you do it accidentally, then that is fine, but the point of purposely killing someone without knowing of what would happen in ME3 is sort of against the whole "in the moment" gaming is it not?

Cuz either they:

A) Hate that character (for some reason)
or
For the sake of making ME2's suicide mission feel like an actual suicide mission.

I went for Option B.

[Berkilak]

Goldendroid wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

This is a game and people can choose who they want in the next game and not. If someone wants most of their squad to be dead then let them. It ain't my save being effect.

Thus metagaming their way through. Again, the focus of the post was to ask why blind playthrough people would kill someone upon realisation they could, rather than make sure they survive. If you do it accidentally, then that is fine, but the point of purposely killing someone without knowing of what would happen in ME3 is sort of against the whole "in the moment" gaming is it not?

You're changing your position. You were equating Shepard with the player, literally. Thus having Shepard make the choice to kill someone. Which does not happen in-game, regardless of what the player does. I'm not even sure of what you're trying to say, now. Are you saying that it is somehow morally reprehensible to metagame such outcomes?

[JukeFrog]

I would kill off squadmates since I agree that it would make for a more believable/compelling story, but at the end of the day I'd feel like I was setting myself up for an inferior ME3 story (generic replacements/quests still ending the same way).

[JeffZero]

Goldendroid wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

This is a game and people can choose who they want in the next game and not. If someone wants most of their squad to be dead then let them. It ain't my save being effect.

Thus metagaming their way through. Again, the focus of the post was to ask why blind playthrough people would kill someone upon realisation they could, rather than make sure they survive. If you do it accidentally, then that is fine, but the point of purposely killing someone without knowing of what would happen in ME3 is sort of against the whole "in the moment" gaming is it not?

As far as this is concerned, I understand your complaints. But it's hard for me to form a truly objective statement on it since a.) I kill people via meta; b.) I don't dislike anyone. 

[G3rman]

Cheez do you often refer to people as your babies? Are you old enough for that?

[JeffZero]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Metagaming aside, in all my legit playthroughs (minus the "worst import ever lol"), I could never intentionally kill my precious babies.

But that's just me. There are a lot of reasons to off characters in the SM:

1. Dramatic effect. The situation seems more desperate and things get more personal for Shepard if she loses people she cares about. This is not true with me, since any drama would be artificial and by my hand. I'd just feel like a jerk for sacrificing my precious babies.

Yep, you and I have discussed this at length before. That's how you feel. Somehow I manage to avoid feeling that way. /shrugs; hears GlaDOS in the background, mocking me

2. Realism. Going through a mission like that and getting everyone out alive is a bit of a stretch for some people. Even if Shepard's the ultimate hero. Even if her team was made of the best of the best. This isn't an issue for me, since it was a rough and fun fight, the victory was delicious, and hey, sometimes being the ultimate hero is fun.

Yep. For my money, I never really enjoy being the ultimate hero. I mean, sure, I like FFVII a lot (and yes, I know you haven't played any JRPGs like that, I'm just citing an example here) but I wouldn't have felt satisfied at endgame if a major character hadn't perished along the way and a city of millions hadn't fallen as well. I like those sacrifices. I like the oomph behind 'em.

3. Experimentation. Seriously, there's content in ME3 you'll never see if nobody died. Some people want to see the consequences; they want the challenge that comes with limited allies and resources. Me? Apart from my "worst import ever," bring on the YouTubes.

Heh, yep. "Bring on the YouTubes" is my answer to all this silly iOS nonsense.

4. Sometimes, you just really, really hate a character. And that's the nice thing about playing God: God gets to smite the people he doesn't like. I think this is awfully petty (and I don't hate any squadmate enough to do it), but to each their own.

Same.

[Jcmor]

I kill people because I want variety on all my playthroughs. I have 7 different Shepards.

[JeffZero]

Arcian wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Yep. For my money, I never really enjoy being the ultimate hero. I mean, sure, I like FFVII a lot (and yes, I know you haven't played any JRPGs like that, I'm just citing an example here) but I wouldn't have felt satisfied at endgame if a major character hadn't perished along the way and a city of millions hadn't fallen as well. I like those sacrifices. I like the oomph behind 'em.

For me, that "oomph" in ME2 was the fact that the Collectors had already kidnapped and juiced millions of humans by the time Shepard woke up. That's millions who would never see their relatives again, or maybe even entire family trees snuffed out completely.

Fair enough. And I seem to remember you hating FFVII beyond all measure, so... I'm sorry.

[Aimi]

Arcian wrote...

For me, that "oomph" in ME2 was the fact that the Collectors had already kidnapped and juiced millions of humans by the time Shepard woke up. That's millions who would never see their relatives again, or maybe even entire family trees snuffed out completely.

butbutbut the plot of me2 was irrelevant and nothing really happened

[AdmiralCheez]

G3rman wrote...

Cheez do you often refer to people as your babies? Are you old enough for that?

I am old enough to have legally reproduced, yes.  But I go all Big Momma Care Bear in every squad/team-based game I play.  Pokémon?  MY LITTLE DARLINGS.  Fire Emblem?  MY SOLDIERS ARE MY CHILDREN.  Mass Effect?  PRECIOUS BABIES EVERYWHERE.

I coddle my friends, pets, and family members, too.  I can get really, really obnoxious about it sometimes.

NO YOU SIT DOWN AND REST WHILE I MAKE YOU SOME HOT CHOCOLATE.

[ADLegend21]

Arcian wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Yep. For my money, I never really enjoy being the ultimate hero. I mean, sure, I like FFVII a lot (and yes, I know you haven't played any JRPGs like that, I'm just citing an example here) but I wouldn't have felt satisfied at endgame if a major character hadn't perished along the way and a city of millions hadn't fallen as well. I like those sacrifices. I like the oomph behind 'em.

For me, that "oomph" in ME2 was the fact that the Collectors had already kidnapped and juiced millions of humans by the time Shepard woke up. That's millions who would never see their relatives again, or maybe even entire family trees snuffed out completely.

Yeah. I hate seeing liltih from horizon getting juiced so it makes me kepe everyone so that we can have as many capable people alive as we can to make sure no more civilians get the same fate.

[jeweledleah]

Goldendroid wrote...

I have mentioned that deaths that come from accidents or such events are not the focus of my argument. 

I should really reword it to "helping as many people as possible survive" instead of "saving every squadmate"

but that's the point.  they are.  Shepard doesn't know that releasing evidence at Tali's trial somehow makes her incapable of doing her job.  Shepard doesn't know that the event above will give some unnamed collector better aim.  Shepard doesn;t know that there will be falling debree that will crush a squadmate who's still distracted but will avoid the one who is not.  they maybe taking, say disloyal Zaeed with them to the human reaper, because they know that Zaeed is a fantastic shot, a tough guy with strong survival instinct.  how are they supposed to know that it won't work this time, solely becasue they let Vido go, in order to save the workers?

ust becasue you metagame deaths into your suicide mission doesn't mean your Shepard is not trying to save as many people as possible.

Shepard=/=player.

and yes there are people who arrange deaths simply becasue they hate the characters.  /shrug.  let them.  its their game and its their rite to have only people they actualy want to see in ME3 alive in their saves.  no matter how strongly we may feel about the characters and the story (and trust me, i feel very strongly about both characters and the story)  in the end - its still merely a game.  and people merely play the way that's fun for them.

P.S.  and personaly I find it to be a matter of pride to play pretty much every single player game I play with as few casualties as possible.  (has reloaded star craft so... many..times, just becasue some stray marinecaught a bullet.  refused to use zerglings too, damn things die to much).  at least once.  doesn't mean everyone has to or they are in some way terrible people for not playing the same way i do.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 09 février 2012 - 09:53 .