188 réponses à ce sujet

[TheGreenLion]

Well, back in the day there were these things called comic books, and none of the heroines in them were ugly...quite honestly I'd prefer a hot slender warrior babe to a hunky chunky one. Sure it could be realistic but why be realistic when it's a fantasy, every man in their right mind picks the hot one over the ugly one. Fable II did a hunky chunky warrior monk girl and you could be hunky chunky too but you looked more man than woman.



Sexy girls and buff guys are what people want to play in a fantasy game, I'd see no reason to play a world-saving hero that had more fat than muscle...or no muscle and no fat...just doesn't fit.But as kudos, the armor the girls get(aside from Morrigan and it's just barely skimpy) isn't a bikini. As a closer, any fit man or woman would have such a build as they do in DA:O and I'd expect them to be that way.



Developers of games have so much fun trying to balance it so that the masses will like it, they will always have some ONE thing lacking in any given game...they can't create the most perfect gem ever to be made but they can come closer. Give em some lee-way but it's the way that the world thinks today Men and Women are equals though if ya asked a woman if they can do anything a man could do....they'd reply "I can do anything men can do, and better."

[Colloquiallism]

relhart wrote...

Inarai wrote...

As far as the physique bit goes, well...

I'd actually chalk the stats on women's physiques versus men's to the fact that society has a different idea of what they're supposed to look like. If a woman wants to be a kickass soldier/warrior/etc, she certainly can. Due to the whole hormone effect, men tend to have a leg up on raw strength, but you're deluded if you think that's enough to make for your conclusion.

Also, women tend to have better fine muscle control, making them better shots on average than men because they can aim better.

Being a woman and having been in the military I can say that this is plain false.  I'm sure from a politicaly correct point of view there are a lot of people who WANT it to be true, but PCness starts to fail when you start blindly believing what you want to in it's name, and ignore reality.  On averave men have much better ability to both build and maintain musculature, they also have much better hand eye coordination, their brains are built around manipulating spatial relationships.  Like I said though, thats on average, thats not saying if you pick a random woman and a random man out of a crowd, the woman won't be better at those things.

I'm sure if you don't have much contact with "MEN" and instead are mostly familiar with pasty PC gamers, you might have trouble buying into that.  If both sexes are from good genetic stock, and build their bodies and minds to be the best warrior they can, the man will always comeout on top in matters of physical combat, despite what your anime might tell you. 

Being a PT, I'm going to have to agree with you on that one. Girls just don't have the natural testosterone / estrogen ratio to build and keep muscle like men. However, as the poster points out, there's an exception to every rule.

[wrightgspot]

He seems forget or just not know of viking battle maidens. Real females that could kicks all our asses in hand to hand combat. Some went with their husbands on raids while others forgo the whole married life and just lived for combat.

[Dennis Carpenter]

If your talking fantasy just go with Xena if your talking historical then how about Joan of Arc..........

[Inarai]

relhart wrote...

Inarai wrote...

As far as the physique bit goes, well...

I'd actually chalk the stats on women's physiques versus men's to the fact that society has a different idea of what they're supposed to look like. If a woman wants to be a kickass soldier/warrior/etc, she certainly can. Due to the whole hormone effect, men tend to have a leg up on raw strength, but you're deluded if you think that's enough to make for your conclusion.

Also, women tend to have better fine muscle control, making them better shots on average than men because they can aim better.

Being a woman and having been in the military I can say that this is plain false.  I'm sure from a politicaly correct point of view there are a lot of people who WANT it to be true, but PCness starts to fail when you start blindly believing what you want to in it's name, and ignore reality.  On averave men have much better ability to both build and maintain musculature, they also have much better hand eye coordination, their brains are built around manipulating spatial relationships.  Like I said though, thats on average, thats not saying if you pick a random woman and a random man out of a crowd, the woman won't be better at those things.

I'm sure if you don't have much contact with "MEN" and instead are mostly familiar with pasty PC gamers, you might have trouble buying into that.  If both sexes are from good genetic stock, and build their bodies and minds to be the best warrior they can, the man will always comeout on top in matters of physical combat, despite what your anime might tell you. 

Wow, you're just full of senseless assumptions, aren't you?

If 9-10 years of martial arts have taught me anything, it's that all the strength in the world isn't going to turn a fight the same way skill or speed can.  It certainly makes a difference, but once you get beyond the point of a couple of idiots throwing sloppy-ass punches at each other, the equation gets changed.  You have to factor for so many things that relate to how agile and quick a person is.  Hence why I said its delusional to think raw strength is the whole story. 

As far as anything neurological goes, you have ot realise that's trained from birth.  Our brains are so wonderfully adaptive that they can be good at pretty much anything - even if that individual belongs to a group that does not typically train in that task.  When you learn something, your brain forms new connections - and it's best at doing so early on in life, when typically males are involved in activities that more closely mimic combat (IE, mock sword-fights, etc).  In short, the brain is built around what you do, especially in early life.  If you take someone who performs tasks in development which require hand-eye cooridination and manipulation of spatial relationships, a brain that seems to be built around those things is precisely what you'd expect to see.  Which kinda goes back to the whole point about stereotypes.

Of course, a discussion of relative ability is merely tangental to this thread, which specifically discusses the very binary question of whether it's possible at all for women to be good warriors, and I don't think you'd disagree with the idea that it is quite possible - especially in a more martial/equal/semi-barbaric world where war is more prevalent.

In fact, some of the in-game text would suggest that combat is just part of Ferelden's culture, anyways.

[CecilCourage]

if you have sten in your party and any woman in the party he'll eventually start a conversation about seeing so many women fighting. Its likely that women in ferelden have much more freedoms than those in other parts of the continent. I'm thinking that the conflict with orlais lead to a need for women to support and eventually fight alongside men to secure a successful revolution. If you play as a female character it would appear that not many women join the grey wardens so it must be a ferelden thing and not so much a dragon age universe thing.

[asaiasai]

To the OP i am not intending to flame or start a verbal war, but you seem to be complaining about the lack of realism in a fantasy realm of magic and monsters. To take your point and add my 2 cents to it. How is it possible for a woman who lacks the physiology(?) to be a warrior, have the ability to not only be a warrior but excel at the warrior role? The only answer i can come up with that makes any sence is........ It must be magic.



Asai

[dannythefool]

Posting in a thread that wants to go back to 1950.

[doubledeviant]

If I said that the female great white shark is larger than the male, would I be sexist? No.



In general, the human male is stronger than the human female. Get over it.



It becomes sexism if I say that individual women cannot prove an exception to the rule (i.e. - if I were to say that ALL women are weaker than men).



I don't recall the original poster saying anything of the sort. He/she expressed a sentiment about the balance of tough chicks and macho guys. It may or may not be a valid critque, but there's no need to throw hate when he's trying to express his feelings about the game environment.

[AgnosticTheocrat]

"I'm not sexist but [sexist remark]"



Well played, sir. . .

[soteria]

Inarai wrote...

relhart wrote...

Inarai wrote...

As far as the physique bit goes, well...

I'd actually chalk the stats on women's physiques versus men's to the fact that society has a different idea of what they're supposed to look like. If a woman wants to be a kickass soldier/warrior/etc, she certainly can. Due to the whole hormone effect, men tend to have a leg up on raw strength, but you're deluded if you think that's enough to make for your conclusion.

Also, women tend to have better fine muscle control, making them better shots on average than men because they can aim better.

Being a woman and having been in the military I can say that this is plain false.  I'm sure from a politicaly correct point of view there are a lot of people who WANT it to be true, but PCness starts to fail when you start blindly believing what you want to in it's name, and ignore reality.  On averave men have much better ability to both build and maintain musculature, they also have much better hand eye coordination, their brains are built around manipulating spatial relationships.  Like I said though, thats on average, thats not saying if you pick a random woman and a random man out of a crowd, the woman won't be better at those things.

I'm sure if you don't have much contact with "MEN" and instead are mostly familiar with pasty PC gamers, you might have trouble buying into that.  If both sexes are from good genetic stock, and build their bodies and minds to be the best warrior they can, the man will always comeout on top in matters of physical combat, despite what your anime might tell you. 

Wow, you're just full of senseless assumptions, aren't you?

If 9-10 years of martial arts have taught me anything, it's that all the strength in the world isn't going to turn a fight the same way skill or speed can.  It certainly makes a difference, but once you get beyond the point of a couple of idiots throwing sloppy-ass punches at each other, the equation gets changed.  You have to factor for so many things that relate to how agile and quick a person is.  Hence why I said its delusional to think raw strength is the whole story. 

As far as anything neurological goes, you have ot realise that's trained from birth.  Our brains are so wonderfully adaptive that they can be good at pretty much anything - even if that individual belongs to a group that does not typically train in that task.  When you learn something, your brain forms new connections - and it's best at doing so early on in life, when typically males are involved in activities that more closely mimic combat (IE, mock sword-fights, etc).  In short, the brain is built around what you do, especially in early life.  If you take someone who performs tasks in development which require hand-eye cooridination and manipulation of spatial relationships, a brain that seems to be built around those things is precisely what you'd expect to see.  Which kinda goes back to the whole point about stereotypes.

Of course, a discussion of relative ability is merely tangental to this thread, which specifically discusses the very binary question of whether it's possible at all for women to be good warriors, and I don't think you'd disagree with the idea that it is quite possible - especially in a more martial/equal/semi-barbaric world where war is more prevalent.

In fact, some of the in-game text would suggest that combat is just part of Ferelden's culture, anyways.

Well, if what you say is true, I expect they'll be merging men's and women's Olympic fencing any time soon, as well as most of the other sports.  Maybe you should write them a letter.

[Boeresmurf]

oke i agree with the OP with 1 point:

i always loved the dark personality shadow/half evil characters like:

edwin: balders gate

canderous ordo: kotor

wolverine:

hero assasins creed.



and many many more.. but in this game we seem to lack 1 like those, oke we got cool and dark sten but he is way to much of a following warrior .. .

[dannythefool]

doubledeviant wrote...
I don't recall the original poster saying anything of the sort. He/she expressed a sentiment about the balance of tough chicks and macho guys. It may or may not be a valid critque, but there's no need to throw hate when he's trying to express his feelings about the game environment.

The original poster complained about the sexes being balanced because they shouldn't be on account of the superior male physique. All the while ignoring that none of the female party characters are particularly strong except Shale, who had to become a golem to be this strong. Apart from her we have an elderly lady mage that collapses in the middle of combat, a young girl that is a witch so she sorta kinda has to be female to fit in with the lore, and a minstrel who used her female seduction powers in her previous job as an assassin rather than violence and can use bows but not heavy weaponry or armour.
The original poster also wrote "An ancient army of evil origins rises up--but it's not problem; they're such wusses we can send four of our women to take them down." implying that the darkspawn must be wusses because you can have so many female characters fight them and still win. If that isn't sexist I don't know what is, I wonder what the OP will do when he realises that two of the female characters are potentially much stronger than any other save a PC mage.
The original poster indicates that approving of gifts is a female characteristic and doesn't even notice that the male characters react to gifts in the exact same way. But then he likes Alistair who is more unbalanced than any female character in the game and enjoys jewelry and kitsch figurettes, and Sten who enjoys paintings and cookies.
The original poster also doesn't seem to count Zevran as a full male.

[hawat333]

"Women simply do not have the same kind of physiology as men,"

That's where the trolling comes to the surface. Since it uncovers the purpose of the topic. Because this line is true. And has absolutely nothing to do with the female party members in the team, since only one of the operates with physical attributes and even she is concentrates on athletics. In the game, consider 2wpn fighting as a dance, not something that uses raw physical strength. As for the mages, they obviously use their minds or souls or whatever is the real catalyst to magic. As for Shale... well, she is the funny example



As for the gifting thing: Yeah, that's completely true although my wife respected her wedding ring; but back to the gifting in DAO: True, and you don't kill darkspawn in real life. Another nice try on trolling, so bad it miserably fails.

[Kozuka78]

Whilst Im not really agreeing with the OP. I would of prefered a few more badass male stereotype characters. I'd of liked more characters in general actually, where the game forced you to chose between certain individuals permenantly based on your actions.



Right now its just 'oh you didnt like that? well just have a beer'. The gift system makes managing party interaction too easy.

[Krenmu]

Really..so in a completely fantasy world..with magic, and dragons, and fire coming out of thin air.



Not to mention where you can apparently wield a flaming sword that also hits with lightning, that paralyzes people when it hits...



We are supposed to be constrained by something as menial as physical limitations...get over yourself, There are plenty of cases where women excel at things most Men can't do..including strength events...Look at the PC as an exception rather than the rule if you have to..either way..Your applying real world philosophy to a game..with freakin dragons..need I say more?

[Unbroken Lineage]

It's pretty refreshing to be honest. And this is one of the few games my wife plays as much as I do. You should be thanking BioWare for making a game your girlfriend wants to play. Thanks BioWare.

[andysdead]

i've known a couple women in the army who were able to fill the soldier role just fine.

[hankmurphy]

see brienne of tarth

[Chai Te]

hawat333 wrote...

"Women simply do not have the same kind of physiology as men,"
That's where the trolling comes to the surface. Since it uncovers the purpose of the topic. Because this line is true. And has absolutely nothing to do with the female party members in the team, since only one of the operates with physical attributes and even she is concentrates on athletics.
**snip**

Even if Le was more of a close-combatant, she wouldn't be quite as out-of-place as some think.  The superior male physique is superior at fighting like a man.  Take a woman and make her fight like a man, and she'll be at a double disadvantage.  The difference in physiology goes through the muscles and into the bones as well.  Women aren't hooked together the same way.  A sword stroke that is easy and natural for men can cause pain for a woman, or be outright impossible. 

If I remember the lore correctly, women are rather free in choosing what they want to do and many have chosen to fight.  With the strong warrior culture, I've no doubt they have adapted their fighting techniques to address the differences.  Using their superior female physique to fight like a woman plus training to fight from the same age as the men, I've no doubt female fighters could match their male counterparts. 

An eye opening read for me was The Armored Rose by Tobi Beck.  I found it very thought provoking, and not just about women fighters.

That being said, I wish there were more manly men also.  I stick with Allister because he comes early and fights Sword & Board, but he is totally a whiney git. Nice guy, but come on now...  I want Oghren to join up earlier and be specced differently so I can leave Al at camp.

ymmv

[Zenthar Aseth]

relhart wrote...

Inarai wrote...

As far as the physique bit goes, well...

I'd actually chalk the stats on women's physiques versus men's to the fact that society has a different idea of what they're supposed to look like. If a woman wants to be a kickass soldier/warrior/etc, she certainly can. Due to the whole hormone effect, men tend to have a leg up on raw strength, but you're deluded if you think that's enough to make for your conclusion.

Also, women tend to have better fine muscle control, making them better shots on average than men because they can aim better.

Being a woman and having been in the military I can say that this is plain false.  I'm sure from a politicaly correct point of view there are a lot of people who WANT it to be true, but PCness starts to fail when you start blindly believing what you want to in it's name, and ignore reality.  On averave men have much better ability to both build and maintain musculature, they also have much better hand eye coordination, their brains are built around manipulating spatial relationships.  Like I said though, thats on average, thats not saying if you pick a random woman and a random man out of a crowd, the woman won't be better at those things.

I'm sure if you don't have much contact with "MEN" and instead are mostly familiar with pasty PC gamers, you might have trouble buying into that.  If both sexes are from good genetic stock, and build their bodies and minds to be the best warrior they can, the man will always comeout on top in matters of physical combat, despite what your anime might tell you. 

A woman that's sensible about this topic(woman vs man in combat)? Woah! I applaud you.

Males are just built around fighting, pretty much.. and also, as you said: If you pick a random woman and a random man the woman CAN have better hand eye coordination, sense of space etc.. and with training they can improve it. But you cannot make evolution go away just because it's cool in the 21th century to say women are just as capable as men in combat..

The usual argument is this: "men are stronger but women are more agile/quicker". Which is false.. women do NOT have an advantage in agility. The best body for combat is one that is very strong yet agile.. and you CAN be extremely strong and still be agile as hell.

People also forget that it's not just the 1vs1 combat situation that matters.. but also what happens before it: women have a different hygiene.. and if it would not be taken care of they would suffer a LOT more of it than a man. You also need to carry lots of stuff around. Also, men would be distracted because they'd want to make sure the woman is alright.. they might risk a lot just to make sure the woman is safe. 

"The average female Army recruit is 4.8 inches shorter, 31.7 pounds lighter, has 37.4 fewer pounds of muscle, and 5.7 more pounds of fat than the average male recruit. She has only 55 percent of the upper-body strength and 72 percent of the lower-body strength.

An Army study done in 1988 found that women are more than twice as likely to suffer leg injuries and nearly five times as likely to suffer fractures as men. 

In terms of physical capability, the upper five percent of women are at the level of the male median. The average 20-to-30 year-old woman has the same aerobic capacity as a 50 year-old man.

- on the push-up test, only 7% of women can meet a score of 60, while 78% of men exceed it. 

adopting a male standard of fitness at West Point would mean 70% of the women he studied would be separated as failures at the end of their junior year, only 3% would be eligible for the Recondo badge, and not one would receive the Army Physical Fitness badge.  "


Taking all that into account, it's certainly possible for women to go to war with men. It just doesn't make sense for the army as an organization to "want" women in the combat roles as they do nothing better but almost everything worse on average. HOWEVER if the woman is dedicated and tries her best... 

Rel, what was your role in the army? Did you like it there?

In conclusion: I disagree with the topic, the female roles in DA:O are very good actually. Although I'd want some more masculine men.. I would not trust any of the men in DAO with my life..

[Dark83]

Ordo_Wells wrote...
Women simply do not have the same kind of physiology as men, and are not made to fight and push inflict physical damage on enemies who are potentially larger and stronger.

The hilarious thing about this statement is that the character animation models aren't made for the women either, leading to incorrect proportions.

So the women in DA:O do havethe same physiology, which is why they can fight! 

[Zenthar Aseth]

Leliana has larger hands larger than her head is.. it's creepy

[Greye]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

It's pretty refreshing to be honest. And this is one of the few games my wife plays as much as I do. You should be thanking BioWare for making a game your girlfriend wants to play. Thanks BioWare.

Yes, thanks Bioware! <3  I always build an all-female party if I can, and Bioware made it happen.  It's fantastic just to have another equal-opportunity party-based RPG in the first place.  The only observation I'd agree with, just for the sake of more pointless argument in relation to the OP, is about the lack of a robe-wearing male mage NPC, and the lack of a tough female warrior NPC (I can't D/L Shale on my PS3).

[OKDaddio]

If I could go back in time and nip this 'trolling' fad in the bud I would do so.