188 réponses à ce sujet

[Drider-man]

wrightgspot wrote...

He seems forget or just not know of viking battle maidens. Real females that could kicks all our asses in hand to hand combat. Some went with their husbands on raids while others forgo the whole married life and just lived for combat.

I'm sorry, you must be thinking of the mythological valkyries who were, among other things, not real. Actually, viking culture was pretty strict on the whole "women stay in the kitchen" thing, although to be fair the house was usually the de facto domain of the wife, even so far as it was usually the women who had the keys to the house (if it indeed had a lock at all, of course).

As for representation of women fighters, this game hits it pretty well I think. There's not so many of them as to make them as common as men, but other the other hand there's enough of them to establish that women can indeed be warriors and adventurers, at least in Ferelden.

[Zenthar Aseth]

Drider-man wrote...

wrightgspot wrote...

He seems forget or just not know of viking battle maidens. Real females that could kicks all our asses in hand to hand combat. Some went with their husbands on raids while others forgo the whole married life and just lived for combat.

I'm sorry, you must be thinking of the mythological valkyries who were, among other things, not real. Actually, viking culture was pretty strict on the whole "women stay in the kitchen" thing, although to be fair the house was usually the de facto domain of the wife, even so far as it was usually the women who had the keys to the house (if it indeed had a lock at all, of course).

As for representation of women fighters, this game hits it pretty well I think. There's not so many of them as to make them as common as men, but other the other hand there's enough of them to establish that women can indeed be warriors and adventurers, at least in Ferelden.

LOL!! Viking battle maidens.. yeah right  Someone's been reading too much fantasy.. (Not aimed at you Drider.. you are correct that the "battle maidens" are Valkyries aka fantasy..)

Modifié par Zenthar Aseth, 24 novembre 2009 - 05:27 .

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

This thread is idiotic and it makes me ill, to be frank. Please get out of my universe.

[Foofad]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

This thread is idiotic and it makes me ill, to be frank. Please get out of my universe.

QFT.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

wrightgspot wrote...

He seems forget or just not know of viking battle maidens. Real females that could kicks all our asses in hand to hand combat. Some went with their husbands on raids while others forgo the whole married life and just lived for combat.

You need to stop watching Hercules: Legendary Journeys. Or wherever you get these fantasic stories from.

Real Viking women were just stay-at-home moms, really. None of them ever went along to raid Britain.

[Zenthar Aseth]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

This thread is idiotic and it makes me ill, to be frank. Please get out of my universe.

Then don't read the thread if you're so soft.

[gurugeorge]

Clearly, men, on the whole, are physically stronger, faster, etc., etc., than women, and can kick ass better ON AVERAGE.



This holds throughout history - EXCEPT we know that women also were SOMETIMES warriors in ancient societies, so the AVERAGE physiological difference doesn't mean that SOME women can't be kick-ass fighters, if they have the genetics for it, the will for it, and the training for it. Also, if a fight requires "all hands on deck", women are welcome to join in the fun, and are quite capable of being deadly enough for jazz.



Really, this shouldn't be problematic at all, it's quite simple, obvious and true. It's also balanced out by a certain physiological toughness that women have (they have a higher tolerance for pain, obviously, and are less wussy on the whole, mentally tougher - again, unless the men have had some Stoic training to toughen them up mentally, which in fact most ancient societies had, men tend to be actually the weaker sex in terms of willpower. We know from archaeology that there were SOME societies in ancient times that were matriarchal and matrilineal, so women are quite capable of being the bosses and tend to be very practical and pragmatic on the whole (as if that weren't obvious in many relationships!)



However, unless one's own character is a kick-ass female warrior Amazon, or nimble deadly rogue type (like my own character, or like Leilana), the two major females (apart from Shale, who's a case apart) are MAGES, so they don't need to be big, strong and tough, so really there's no imbalance in the game at all.



As to the rest of it - this question often comes up in MMO forums. The obvious answer why men play women is because it's more pleasant and sexy, for a man, to watch the back of a woman running around 4 or 5 hours a day than some chunky-thighed male lumbering along. It's notable that women often enjoy playing men for the analogous reason - they enjoy seeing those chunky thighs

[Ashimmu]

gurugeorge wrote...

As to the rest of it - this question often comes up in MMO forums. The obvious answer why men play women is because it's more pleasant and sexy, for a man, to watch the back of a woman running around 4 or 5 hours a day than some chunky-thighed male lumbering along. It's notable that women often enjoy playing men for the analogous reason - they enjoy seeing those chunky thighs

I've heard this argument so many times, I'll ask you the same question I'd ask anyone else; why would you stare at your characters backside while you play?

Modifié par Ashimmu, 24 novembre 2009 - 06:59 .

[Sean0883]

Ordo_Wells wrote...
PS, also, girls do not respect you more and more when you give them more and more gifts.  Seriously.  Do not mimic this game in that regard.   

AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA

You mentioned that you know what the host of Queer Eye for the Straight Guy looks like (which is more than I can say), so I imagine that you watch those kinds of shows.  There are plenty of "reality" shows out there, and my wife is women's entertainment reality show fiend.  I've watched a few segments with her where a guy is marrying a woman so that he is not alone anymore.  It couldn't be anymore obvious she could care less about him, but he is marrying her anyway.  Why?  Because he has money.  One lady actually got upset when she told her husband she wanted a "simple engagement ring."  When he presented it, she got all pissed off that her left arm wouldnt eventually bulk up after carrying the weight for a few years.

This is only in reference to the reality shows that I assume you watch based on your initial show choice.  I could be completely wrong about what you  watch.  I just wanted to point out that material matters to most women, whether they admit it or not.  Even my wife, it matters.  I don't have to buy her expensive jewelry, she is actually fine with cheap knock offs.  But if I ever bought her something really really nice, i would easily gain +10 on her scale.

[marshalleck]

I'm betting OP would get his ass kicked in real life by any modern age female soldier who's gone through the training.



Nothing interesting to read here.

[Zenthar Aseth]

gurugeorge wrote...
they have a higher tolerance for pain, obviously, and are less wussy on the whole, mentally tougher

100% wrong. Women do not have a higher tolerance for pain and they are not less wussy or mentally tougher (wtf?).

"Do women have a higher pain tolerance than men?[/b]
Some people suppose that, because they are able to bear children, women have a higher pain tolerance than men do. However, several studies do not support this theory. A study at the Pain Management Unit of the University of Bath reported that women feel more pain in their lifetimes and that they feel pain for longer durations than men do. One experiment involved men and women submerging their arms in ice water. In that experiment, women had a lower pain threshold and lower tolerance for pain than men did [Source: Live Science].

Women's brains also respond a little differently to pain than men's brains do. There is considerable overlap in the areas of the brain that respond to pain and stress, but women's limbic centers become active in addition to these areas. The limbic center is responsible for a person's emotions, so this suggests that women are likely to have emotional responses to pain and stress. Researchers theorize that this is because of the traditional gender role of women as caregivers [Source: Science Daily]."

Modifié par Zenthar Aseth, 24 novembre 2009 - 07:16 .

[GlassRain]

I'm less concerned about the reality and more concerned that the only 2 mages are female and the only useful rogue imo is also female. Not to mention there are two characters that are deadset in the same combat style. Why would you have Sten and Ogh both in your party at once.. ever?



Should have given us a female fighter with dual wield and let Jowan join our party. Also would have liked to have seen a means of respeccing your party members via some sort of achievement like having them in your group for 75% of a game allows you to spend their talents/stat points freely the next play through.

[Tenshinhan91]

Colloquiallism wrote...

Sunaya wrote...

Dennis Carpenter wrote...
BTW who do you think has the best rack.................?

Even as a straight female, I couldn't stop staring at Morrigan's. Was it envy, fascination, or that...unique...outfit of hers?

Heh, agreed, albeit probably for different reasons. I thought Maxim's article on the girls of Dragon Age were hilarious. I had forgotten that Morrigan and Leliana were actually based on real life people.

Oh, the girl lending her looks to Leilana is damn cute...

[Ordo_Wells]

Awesome.  I'm really glad and thankful for all these responses.  Hadn't checked since yesterday.

Let me respond to a few of the criticisms:

1.  I complained about a lack of Males, but also dissed Zevran.
-------------I diss Zevran because I don't see him as a male, but as a feminine, weakly thought-up character with a trashy euro accent.  ON weakly-writ: Seriously, the guy is sent as an assassin to end my life....fails...and then five minutes later is a member of my party....Cmon.  It doesn't matter how cutesy or clever his accent is, only a moron would ever recruit the assassin into his party in this manner.  Please. 

2.  the women are mages, and don't need to be strong.

B......S.........They still have to take damage, and they still have to travel and run with the men.  Again, I'm open to some exceptions, but this just feels soooooo forced.  

3.  I "obviously want a party of all male characters"......

B......S.........I've had Morrigan since the get-go.  I think she's a really cool character, well written, and believably affective in combat.   Also, I actually like Wynne.  What I don't like is that I feel forced to include women, and that we have Wynne and and effiminate and irritating male elf at the expense of a a male mage, and masculine or at least not a comical.....think of the puss-in boots character from shrek.....charicature of a rogue.    Can ya feel me?  there's just a bit too much estrogen flowing....and that's just not healthy.  

4.     IF you want the cliche'd soldier, wizard blah blah blah...

Look, Yeah, I want some archetypal characters.  I want the wise sage (merlin, jolee) I want the Cold Warrior (Canderous, Sten) I want the Strong Woman (Morrigan, Joan of Ark, the girl from Underworld). etc.  But don't act like this whole "let's make sure we put girls in the action" thing is not it's own cliche.  Further, its a crappy cliche that doesn't do anyone any good.  I say this not because I dislike women, or think they are of inferior worth, but because I love women, cherish them for their femininity in the face of my masculinity.  I speak from experience and many a conversation and relation (family, friends, lovers, strangers) to women.  Let me tell you, the women who fight against the stuff I'm saying (and they're actually the minority), who feel committed and obligated to defend the idea that a woman can do "anything a man can do".....they're also, generally speaking, the most dissatisfied, over-reactive, self-centered, intolerant, and troubled of the lot. 


5.  If they don't include this diversity, then there will be screams of misogyny and sexism. (something like that)

Ughhh.....ok.  LIsten, the above argument actually reveals there is something ridiculous going on in our culture. 
Seriously, why do we have to listen to crazy people.  We don't.  Someone who thinks it's sexist to have ideas like mine is off his or her rocker.   Further, the fact that thes kinds of arguments gain any kind of attention tells me that, as a whole, our ideas of the sexes, of masculinity and femininity, are screwy.

6.  Gifting

This is a fair criticism.  TO the writer's credit, Morrigan does have realistic responses in dialogue.  Actually, she has great repsonses--in terms of disposition. so bravo bioware writer responsible for this, and I concede to the poster.  Really, I was just taking an opportunity to remind the fellas out there that  a woman does not want you to shower her with gifts (but I'm not gonna get into that here).   Also, that it seemed counter to Morrigan's character to accept gifts.


STICKING POINTS

I will never concede to the idea that there is in women an open potential to be as effective as men in physical combat situations.    This is simply ridiculous, and if you think otherwise, you have something off at work in your perspective.  THink of it this way.  I, and I'm ready to presume most men would back me, would be comfortable betting a lot of money that there is not a single woman within a mile (very conservative) radius of me that can beat me, or even--excluding a genital-strike---harm me in a fight.  On the other hand, I would bet you that same amount of money that I could find a guy within 2 blocks who, in a fight, could at the very least cause me serious pain and bodily injury.

Think about that.  Now, the Fantasy we are playing is relying more and more on a Fantastical view of the sexes than it is about a Fantastical Environment and Situation.  ANd I have to ask, why do we need, or want, a fantastical view of the sexes?  I mean, seeing men and women be brave and courageous IS useful, interesting, and emmersive; but seeing women as men....that's almost harmful. 

What do I want?  I want some more MALE characters.  Characters who are complex and or mysterious.  I want a rogue and a mage.  Also, I'd like to see....well, I'm not going to post my ideas here.  When I make my game, you'll see.

What I don't want:  The descrition of The Witcher actually turned me off.  I'm not some cynical nihilist, and I don't view women as objects, and I don't have a fatalistic view of sex and human relationships.

hmmm....thinking of a reference to give you for my view.....Read Bram Stoker's Dracula.  THe way the men and women relate to eachother is great.  Sure, there's no woman warrior, but that's circumstantial--she just doesn't happen to be around.  WHat you don't find in that book is an essentially unhealthy and confused sense of gender. ie, the witcher is dark and cynical, overly sexual....Dragon Age forces physical equality, and underappreciates the importance of masculinity....

Ok, I'll try and respond to other criticisms as well, as I catch up on them.

THanks again to all for responding, and I feel free to harass or cite or toss my name around.  Just don't speak false, please.

[BeachxBit]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...
100% wrong. Women do not have a higher tolerance for pain and they are not less wussy or mentally tougher (wtf?).

I dunno... I can handle a decent amount of pain in stride, whereas sometimes my husband says "ow" when he drops the remote. On the ground. Because he is so pain-sensitive that he can even detect it remotely (pun! pun!)

In any event, my own gender will probably throttle me for this... but I agree to a point that it is unrealistic, in an attempt to avoid the perception of sexism, to inundate video games with female "warrior" types. Have they existed? sure. But not in the numbers that you see now in games.

Men are bigger, stronger, and throughout history have been more the brute-force type than girls. Such is fact. In a rational sense, I would not attempt to take on dragons all by my little bitty self. I would find the biggest badest most diesel guy I knew and use him as a body-shield. hehe. Because I might not be that strong, but I'm smart enough to know it.

Modifié par BeachxBit, 24 novembre 2009 - 07:39 .

[Zenthar Aseth]

BeachxBit wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...
100% wrong. Women do not have a higher tolerance for pain and they are not less wussy or mentally tougher (wtf?).

I dunno... I can handle a decent amount of pain in stride, whereas sometimes my husband says "ow" when he drops the remote. On the ground. Because he is so pain-sensitive that he can even detect it remotely (pun! pun!)

In any event, my own gender will probably throttle me for this... but I agree to a point that it is unrealistic, in an attempt to avoid the perception of sexism, to inundate video games with female "warrior" types. Have they existed? sure. But not in the numbers that you see now in games.

Men are bigger, stronger, and throughout history have been more the brute-force type than girls. Such is fact. In a rational sense, I would not attempt to take on dragons all by my little bitty self. I would find the biggest badest most diesel guy I knew and use him as a body-shield. hehe. Because I might not be that strong, but I'm smart enough to know it.

Yes, and I can handle massive amounts of pain without any reaction.... point being? Invidual testimonies prove nothing

But yes, again - DA:O doesn't have unrealistic female characters, really (if you don't count them using magic..) as we have mages and a rogue/archer..

[Ordo_Wells]

I realize some might take the wrong idea away form what I said in response to 5.



To make sure we understand eachother, I'll ask you to think about something.



Why are we so keen to force women into the warrior (this includes the mages; their not out there doing charity work, but killing enemies) role, on the basis of an ideal of equality and 'rights' to participate?



I say THAT is sexist, because it at once presumes 1 these kinds of activity--trekking, politics, killing--are the most important, and 2 that what women were doing before was NOT as important.



I have to say, what's more important than the bearer and bringer and early educator of our children. If you disagree, humor me: the next time you are around an infant or small child, note how (for the love of all things good I hope this is the case) , and instinct of carefulness, caution, and protection stirs. And fellas, sorry to break it to you, we will never know what it is to be with-child, or understand the kind of...whatever it is....connection.....women have to their child.



Ok, that coffee apparently had me waxing a bit there. ANyways, have at it.

[BeachxBit]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

BeachxBit wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...
100% wrong. Women do not have a higher tolerance for pain and they are not less wussy or mentally tougher (wtf?).

I dunno... I can handle a decent amount of pain in stride, whereas sometimes my husband says "ow" when he drops the remote. On the ground. Because he is so pain-sensitive that he can even detect it remotely (pun! pun!)

Yes, and I can handle massive amounts of pain without any reaction.... point being? Invidual testimonies prove nothing

I... was making a joke, I even shouted "pun!" after it so as to emphasize.. that. it. was. a. joke. but that's ok, feel free to ignore that part. You are a badass, you feel no pain, duly noted.
 

Modifié par BeachxBit, 24 novembre 2009 - 07:50 .

[kansadoom]

Ordo_Wells wrote...

I realize some might take the wrong idea away form what I said in response to 5.

To make sure we understand eachother, I'll ask you to think about something.

Why are we so keen to force women into the warrior (this includes the mages; their not out there doing charity work, but killing enemies) role, on the basis of an ideal of equality and 'rights' to participate?

I say THAT is sexist, because it at once presumes 1 these kinds of activity--trekking, politics, killing--are the most important, and 2 that what women were doing before was NOT as important.

I have to say, what's more important than the bearer and bringer and early educator of our children. If you disagree, humor me: the next time you are around an infant or small child, note how (for the love of all things good I hope this is the case) , and instinct of carefulness, caution, and protection stirs. And fellas, sorry to break it to you, we will never know what it is to be with-child, or understand the kind of...whatever it is....connection.....women have to their child.

Ok, that coffee apparently had me waxing a bit there. ANyways, have at it.

No they are not the most important things but havent you noticed that all of the women you take with you are not in love with anyone and dont have any children to take care of and maybe they dont want to have a child and take care of it all day maybe they want to get involved in politics trekking or killing, you are summing up a whole gender just with stereotyped opinions.

[Ashimmu]

Seeing women outside the kitchen detracts grit from your gaming experience? 

I also find it interesting that you mention Canderous Ordo, a
mandalorian. Did you know mandalorian women also were soldiers, and
were expected to fight just as well as men (except if they had children)?

[Zenthar Aseth]

BeachxBit wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

BeachxBit wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...
100% wrong. Women do not have a higher tolerance for pain and they are not less wussy or mentally tougher (wtf?).

I dunno... I can handle a decent amount of pain in stride, whereas sometimes my husband says "ow" when he drops the remote. On the ground. Because he is so pain-sensitive that he can even detect it remotely (pun! pun!)

Yes, and I can handle massive amounts of pain without any reaction.... point being? Invidual testimonies prove nothing

I... was making a joke, I even shouted "pun!" after it so as to emphasize.. that. it. was. a. joke. but that's ok, feel free to ignore that part. You are a badass, you feel no pain, duly noted.
 

You may not be aware of this, but just because you have a pun there (yippee) does not make the whole sentence a joke.

[Taritu]

Have you played the game? The warriors are ALL men except for the golem. The only slight stretch is Leiliana, who is an archer, but women can use bows, they just can't use the heaviest draw bows.

IRL men are better than women in hand to hand combat, in general. But that doesn't mean a specific women can't be better than the vast majority of men. Go look up who Wing Chun was, for example.

Men are stronger and faster on the run and have better 3d vision as well as usually having a reach and weight advantage. Women are more flexible, have a lower center of gravity and have better peripheral vision and more acute senses in general other than 3d.

Weapons do even things up quite a bit, as well.

In any case, this is a game, and if I want to play to a female warrior (I do), I will. But the original complaint is BS on the face of it, since every single warrior in the game is male, there's only one female combat NPC in the group and she uses a bow.

Modifié par Taritu, 24 novembre 2009 - 08:15 .

[Ordo_Wells]

Beach X Bit

I think we're on the same page.

What I'm getting at is that the games, out of a misunderstanding and mis-evaluation of women and men, force women into combat roles...perhaps because they do not understand or appreciate the roles where women tend to excel. For instance, this is Warrior game, not an espionage or management etc. game. I could never say that a woman would not be able to be a spy, or agent, or use her mind/cunning to outwit opponents.



and, let's just look at the premise here. We have a threat. We have a hero. He/she is to be joined up by the elite warrior/types of his world. DO you really think, that if we were to draw from the pool of adventurers in this world, for the purposes of combatting this army, that we would come up with a 50/50 balanced party of men and women......?



Also, OF COURSE I"VE SEEN "QUEER EYE". What am I, living under a rock? ; ) I don't even own a television, or watch TV at home, but still have seen the show. Also, I think the show is alright (but don't know if it's still on air). About a year ago I actually sat down and watched some of it at a girlfriend's house. The elf character in this game is so effiminate, blonde, tan, and pretty-- he just struck me as being...kinda gay. Really, he'd be more interesting, and compelling, as a character if he WAS gay. If I recall my history correctly, Athens actually raised their elite soldiers to be homosexual and partner with another soldier, so that they'd fight all the more intently alongside eachother. Instead, though, Zevran's just another mixed up-seeming pretty boy.



Still, I like this game, it has potential, but I think it won't be "complete" for another year or so, after modders have their way with it.

[BeachxBit]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

BeachxBit wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

BeachxBit wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...
100% wrong. Women do not have a higher tolerance for pain and they are not less wussy or mentally tougher (wtf?).

I dunno... I can handle a decent amount of pain in stride, whereas sometimes my husband says "ow" when he drops the remote. On the ground. Because he is so pain-sensitive that he can even detect it remotely (pun! pun!)

Yes, and I can handle massive amounts of pain without any reaction.... point being? Invidual testimonies prove nothing

I... was making a joke, I even shouted "pun!" after it so as to emphasize.. that. it. was. a. joke. but that's ok, feel free to ignore that part. You are a badass, you feel no pain, duly noted.
 

You may not be aware of this, but just because you have a pun there (yippee) does not make the whole sentence a joke.

I guess I just made the foolish assumption that it was obvious. Clearly, my husband does not actual feel the remote's pain, It should also be noted that in contrast to that one sentence, I further went on to agree with your point.

I was certainly not looking for a fight, merely trying to lighten the mood, if somehow that offended you, then I apologize, I just don't see the need to be so defensive.

fin.

[Ordo_Wells]

KANSADOOM WROTE:

No they are not the most important things but havent you noticed that all of the women you take with you are not in love with anyone and dont have any children to take care of and maybe they dont want to have a child and take care of it all day maybe they want to get involved in politics trekking or killing, you are summing up a whole gender just with stereotyped opinions.