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DUdes', why so Fem? Or, where are all the MALES?


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#101
Ashimmu

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OP, even though I may not agree with you, ignore any personal attacks. They're not relevant, nor worth responding to.

While I get your concern about realism and the amount of fighting women in the game, there are few female warriors (except Shale, Leliana and Ser Cauthrien) which many others have already pointed out. I get your point, I just don't agree with it being unrealistic. Fine, it isn't realistic at all compared to our real life medieval period, but very little of DA is. The amount of men and women in the game felt natural to me, not too many, or too few.

Try playing the first STALKER-game. That's a game with a skewed gender representation. :P

Modifié par Ashimmu, 24 novembre 2009 - 10:16 .


#102
Guest_Lemonio_*

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this isn't being realistic

its a videogame

if it was realistic the men would get owned, not just the women

however, in games like the witcher you do have more realism in the sense that i think you fight like one woman in that game

there is a large market of women gamers and of men who went female companions so bioware makes it even

just because joan of arc was pretty much the only female fighter before the 20th century, doesn't mean videogames need to abide by this rule

enjoyment is much more important in videogames than realism

#103
Beechwell

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Ordo_Wells wrote...

Physical Fitness is SOOOOOOOOO Important. Are you Crazy?

Look at this whole Health Care Dilemma. Look at kids with ADHD. Look at Cancer, Diabetes, Heart Disease, etc.

Ok....calming down....

Do you deliberately misunderstand me? I meant physical fitness as in physical superiority needed to succeed in our society. That has nothing to do with health concerns.
To be clear, that was in answer to your statement that (as I understood it) women should generally stay with the stuff they are "good at" and leave things outside their home to the man (I apologize if hat isn't where you are coming from, but some of your statements sound like it).

One - good - reason to enforce a somewhat even distribution between sexes in the group is to have a greate variety in characters, in particular characters the players like and can romance. Honestly, a band of gruff, disillusioned warrior types would be pretty boring to be around all the time. That would of course be more realistic in a medeival setting, but as said often enough, this is fantasy.
And of course you meet mostly women who are more concerned with fighting the blight than raising a family. That is what this game is about, after all.

#104
Guest_Lemonio_*

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well i wouldn't exactly say the women in this game are concerned with fighting the blight

leliana is just in love with you, morrigan wants you to give her a baby, and wynne is just, well, there

she is a healer anyway

shale doesn't count because she is a golem

#105
Ironhandx

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Inarai wrote...

relhart wrote...


Being a woman and having been in the military I can say that this is plain false.  I'm sure from a politicaly correct point of view there are a lot of people who WANT it to be true, but PCness starts to fail when you start blindly believing what you want to in it's name, and ignore reality.  On averave men have much better ability to both build and maintain musculature, they also have much better hand eye coordination, their brains are built around manipulating spatial relationships.  Like I said though, thats on average, thats not saying if you pick a random woman and a random man out of a crowd, the woman won't be better at those things.

I'm sure if you don't have much contact with "MEN" and instead are mostly familiar with pasty PC gamers, you might have trouble buying into that.  If both sexes are from good genetic stock, and build their bodies and minds to be the best warrior they can, the man will always comeout on top in matters of physical combat, despite what your anime might tell you. 


Wow, you're just full of senseless assumptions, aren't you?

If 9-10 years of martial arts have taught me anything, it's that all the strength in the world isn't going to turn a fight the same way skill or speed can.  It certainly makes a difference, but once you get beyond the point of a couple of idiots throwing sloppy-ass punches at each other, the equation gets changed.  You have to factor for so many things that relate to how agile and quick a person is.  Hence why I said its delusional to think raw strength is the whole story. 

As far as anything neurological goes, you have ot realise that's trained from birth.  Our brains are so wonderfully adaptive that they can be good at pretty much anything - even if that individual belongs to a group that does not typically train in that task.  When you learn something, your brain forms new connections - and it's best at doing so early on in life, when typically males are involved in activities that more closely mimic combat (IE, mock sword-fights, etc).  In short, the brain is built around what you do, especially in early life.  If you take someone who performs tasks in development which require hand-eye cooridination and manipulation of spatial relationships, a brain that seems to be built around those things is precisely what you'd expect to see.  Which kinda goes back to the whole point about stereotypes.

Of course, a discussion of relative ability is merely tangental to this thread, which specifically discusses the very binary question of whether it's possible at all for women to be good warriors, and I don't think you'd disagree with the idea that it is quite possible - especially in a more martial/equal/semi-barbaric world where war is more prevalent.

In fact, some of the in-game text would suggest that combat is just part of Ferelden's culture, anyways.



Um, what are you smoking? She FLAT OUT said all things being equal, man and woman, same training, same amount of time spent conditioning themselves, the man will win, on average. Which is true. Not just on a physical standpoint, our brains are built differently, we see things differently, we can lead targets better.... mens 3d imaging software is better :P.... I'm not being a sexist here, I'm just stating facts.

On the same token on average if a woman is under fire, on a comms piece, and shooting back at the same time, she's probably going to kick a guy in the same situations ass. Women are far better at multi tasking. The guy will likely get shot by someone walking out from behind a wall that the woman would have seen.

Jebus people, there are huge differences between the sexes that make each much better on *average* than the other. Men are good at fighting, its what we do... even in the rogue category. Mages? I can see women being better at that, or at least equal... magic is so varied in application and type in various different fantasy settings that in some men would do it better and in some women would.... Forgotten realms-esque magic with chanting while waving hands and remembering to toss a pinch of dust at exactly the right moment... women would definitely have the advantage there.


To put it into perspective:

Male: Str +2


Women: Willpower +2

Exact same bonus amounts, but in different areas. YES women CAN make a good, even great warrior without the +2 str, but the man is going to be better at it for the most part.

The woman will be better if theres something that requires someone to last longer than just push out a whole boatload in one area all at once. (Even our adrenal systems maximize this effect, womens adrenaline lasts a LOT longer, but men get a lot more out of it over the short term, again, on average)

#106
Lyrandori

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Once again someone falls into the "let's compare a video gaming to our real world" trap (directed towards the thread author). Just think this way, in Dragon Age's own reality women tend to kick some serious ass.



See? Problem solved.



Next?

#107
Ninjaphrog

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Ordo_Wells wrote...

Before I begin, the disclaimer (the fact I have to post the disclaimer ought to signal that  something's out of whack)
I am not mean or disrespectful and hateful towards women.  Far far far from it.  So, don't go screaming sexism. 

Ok, Dragon Age may mark the point in RPG history when developers go that wee bit too far in putting women into the combat/adventurer role. 

In my party, I currently have an old lady mage, a young lady mage, and a young lady...warrior?  Cmon. 
Then, I have two guys and a dog, and an effiminate, sleezy, pretty boy elf (this elf is about as masculine as that dude who hosts "queer eye for the straight guy"...wait a minute....they look a lot alike too...)

I thought this RPG was supposed to bring realism and grit to the fantasy genre.   

Why is my party balanced for the sexes?  it's ridiculous.  Women simply do not have the same kind of physiology as men, and are not made to fight and push inflict physical damage on enemies who are potentially larger and stronger.  Do I really have to explain this, though? 

I feel like the fantasy is no longer "AN ancient army of Evil origins rises up to destroy mankind, and an order of knights must organize a resistance and fight them back".
Instead, it's "An ancient army of evil origins rises up--but it's not problem; they're such wusses we can send four of our women to take them down."  

I really don't get it.  I mean, do guys really like playing these games as females?  Don't get me wrong, I'm all for that exception to the rule, that one, maybe two, wild card chick who can bring the pain (our aforementioned young lady mage).  BUt this is....preposterous, and a real game-killer for me.  Really, I have to call it bad writing, or a commercially motivated sell-out.

I like Alistair, he's alright.  I like Sten alright too.  but where's the deadly, gravel voiced rogue who hides his face behind a cowl?  Where's the Merlin-esque mage?  Where's Canderous?!  

I could say where I think this is coming from, but I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, or go too far into criticism of my favorite--for now--game developer.  

I just have to ask, does anyone else share in this sentiment?  Am I alone?  Or, are there more of you out there who  think this game lacks masculine......character.

Sorry Bioware, but ya'll seem reeeeaaallly mixed up.....

PS, also, girls do not respect you more and more when you give them more and more gifts.  Seriously.  Do not mimic this game in that regard.   


Lol you're a bigger **** then I am! Congratulations Image IPB

#108
anjii21

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amrose2 wrote...

Little Paw wrote...

All in all DA:O is a bit more Disney than grit...there is a lot of cute, where The Witcher gets the grit right. I thought DA:O was going to be far more adult. It;s actually pretty tame.


Agreed. For being hailed as a 'dark' fantasy in some ways it just feels like "Witcher Lite". Witcher remains the only game I have ever played in which I actually saw children able to be killed (In the swamps, a kid was skipping along a trail and some lizard creature ran up and 1 shot him). Much more adult tones too. Even the fatalities were more graphic in Witcher.

The only place I feel like DA:O has surpassed Witcher in 'dark' or more mature story is how it introduces and deals with rape. The City elf Origin was very realistic to me. It's still strange to me though how you can have a story similar to the beginnng of 'Braveheart' but oh.. can't show any skin or even say anything worse than 'ass' in dialogue.


Anyway, this doesn't have much to do with OP's comment, just something that was brought up I thought I'd comment on


Play Fallout 2 kill some kids stop ur whining...   be prepared to have a sucky game after though child killer....:bandit:

#109
aleksandr the great

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You just answered your question when u added a disclaimer. There are people tht will look for anything agianst their cause (in this case feminists) and will hammer the sht out of people that supposedly "offend" them. Bioware just didnt want a bunch hormonal women Image IPB (not meaning anything bad just tryin to prove a point) suing the crap out of them

#110
Lord Chaos

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Sunaya wrote...

Even as a straight female, I couldn't stop staring at Morrigan's. Was it envy, fascination, or that...unique...outfit of hers? :huh:


hehehe

#111
Lord Badmagic

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By my last count the available companions were (in order of orientation/abundance)...

5 x Males
3.5 x Females
1 x Dog
.5 x Golem

Seems like a sausage-fest to me?

#112
Zenthar Aseth

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BeachxBit wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

BeachxBit wrote...
You've got guys bugging out saying how "...men are physically superior!" and women chiming in that the whole of the issue is whether or not the OP can get a date. 


In other words, you have guys staying on topic discussing it and women making off-topic completely unrelated "witty" remarks..


I find your ability to latch onto single sentences pretty impressive.

Stop generalizing. Not all men have stayed on topic, not all women have gone bat-****-crazy. I AM a woman and I agreed with your point for like the millionth time. I just disagreed with the delivery. That is all.


Hey, I was just paraphrasing what you said! Because that's what it essentially looks like... not saying it's true. Just found your examples amusing.

#113
Tonya777

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Thats some of the dumbest **** , if not the dumbest **** related to dragon age origins I have ever read



What did you expect?



A party where all the characters :



-Look like Batista (The WWE wrestler)

-Sound like Randy Blythe (From the band Lamb of God)

-Have beards like the dudes from ZZ top



Really? That would be stupid lol

#114
menasure

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it's partly a cultural misconception that men are automatically physically stronger than women. sure there's a biological aspect of a difference in muscle growth but how many women are active in sports compared to how many men for example?

there have also been a few cultures in history where women fought actively alongside the men and a modern man would not like to meet them in battle. we're just looking at these things from a western viewpoint. just look at who's doing the hard work in some african communities, it's often not the men but the women.

if a culture would raise their whole population to be fighters from an early age on then i'd bet that their women would beat the men of a culture where only the men are trained at a later age.

#115
Raxtoren

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I played as a male, because I'm one.
Im not 10 anymore, dont get turned on by watching some female character, so whats the point?
female warriors doesnt feel realistic at all. hardly any girls in sweden who can even pass the firefighter test because of lack of strenght.

Modifié par Raxtoren, 25 novembre 2009 - 11:55 .


#116
Raxtoren

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Lord Badmagic wrote...

By my last count the available companions were (in order of orientation/abundance)...

5 x Males
3.5 x Females
1 x Dog
.5 x Golem

Seems like a sausage-fest to me?


Yes, because war is so gay, right?
why would  I want a party of girls, its not "XENA" or is it that im playing?

#117
doubledeviant

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Ironhandx wrote...

Male: Str +2

Women: Willpower +2


Gotta disagree.

Women would be:

Cunning +1
+10 Backstab Modifier

:-P

#118
Ashimmu

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Raxtoren wrote...

I played as a male, because I'm one.
Im not 10 anymore, dont get turned on by watching some female character, so whats the point?
female warriors doesnt feel realistic at all. hardly any girls in sweden who can even pass the firefighter test because of lack of strenght.



Yet there are exceptions. And again, there are no females in the WARRIOR-role in DA:O. Two mages and a rogue. Both relatively feasible.

But then, as someone mentioned (I'm sorry, I can't remember your name) 1:1 realism has no place in games. That's why it's a game. A fantasy roleplaying game, at that.

And you play male because you're male, and women play female because they are. Do you want to deny one gender the opportunity to create a game representation of themselves? What'd you do if DA:O was female-only?

EDIT: Alright, I forgot about Ser Cauthrien, who I even mentioned earlier. Shame on me. Another exception to the rule.

Modifié par Ashimmu, 25 novembre 2009 - 12:13 .


#119
Zenthar Aseth

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menasure wrote...

it's partly a cultural misconception that men are automatically physically stronger than women. sure there's a biological aspect of a difference in muscle growth but how many women are active in sports compared to how many men for example?
there have also been a few cultures in history where women fought actively alongside the men and a modern man would not like to meet them in battle. we're just looking at these things from a western viewpoint. just look at who's doing the hard work in some african communities, it's often not the men but the women.
if a culture would raise their whole population to be fighters from an early age on then i'd bet that their women would beat the men of a culture where only the men are trained at a later age.


No. If anything, culture is trying to say women and men are equal in combat.. which they are not. It is purely evolution. Women took care of the kids and perhaps cooked - men defended the community, hunted and fought each other for the right to be the Alpha and the right to mate...

Could you name these "few cultures"? Alas, even if there are such cultures, that doesn't really have anything to do with the topic as no one is saying women can't fight at ALL. But I'm curious. I'm sure that even if there was a culture where women are trained to fight from very young age, men that started training at a later date would still beat them, by a lot. It's not a western viewpoint at all - it's a factual one. You can check the Maori warriors, Chinese warriors, Samurais... and of course, none of that really matters, just pointing that out. Again, it's evolution.

#120
Rugaru

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Wow I just read this whole sadly hilarious thing...



I must say 1. there are huge differences between men and women, pointing them out is not sexist.



2. from an anthropological aspect men were the hunters and the defenders of the territory as a whole. women were the nurturers and defenders of the home.



Women can fight and defend themselves. To do so effectively they won't do it the same way as men would. In a fight with similar training man vs. woman would result in about 50/50 result. The tactics used by each would vary greatly, and if they tried to swap each others styles they would both be fail. So in my opinion I must say that women (while capable in other aspects) wouldn't fit the warrior role and would be better suited to rogue role so in this regards DA:O succeeded greatly in "realism".

#121
Zenthar Aseth

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Couldar wrote...

Women can fight and defend themselves. To do so effectively they won't do it the same way as men would. In a fight with similar training man vs. woman would result in about 50/50 result.


I'm sorry but that shows you have no experience about combat, unarmed or armed. Unarmed the the winning rate of the man would be about 99.99% whereas when armed with knives/swords probably something like 90%+ as one lucky hit might be the game stopper.

The difference is quite frankly HUGE when it comes to fights where you don't use weapons. If you have a male who has actively trained hand-to-hand combat for 20 years and has some experience... I think the amount of females in the world that could beat a good male fighter would be about 50-100, perhaps. Whereas there's millions of men that could beat the guy..

You can try asking some veterans (people who've been in hundreds of fights.. be it as a bouncer, bodyguard, soldier..) and ask how many females have beat them/would beat them.

Now, if you take an average guy and an average woman, things are different. But when it comes to the extremely capable, the gap is just way too wide and deep.

And there's no insult in this to women. No-one is expecting them to best males in combat nor should they.. they don't need to. Both sexes are equally important to the human race.. we just specialized differently and no amount of feminism brainwashing is going to change millions of years of evolution..

Modifié par Zenthar Aseth, 25 novembre 2009 - 01:13 .


#122
Vabjekf

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Tall people also have a leverage advantage. I think dwarves should get some sort of combat penalty myself.

#123
Durallan

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umm, wow does it really all matter? its just a game.

#124
BeachxBit

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Zenthar Aseth wrote...

BeachxBit wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

BeachxBit wrote...
You've got guys bugging out saying how "...men are physically superior!" and women chiming in that the whole of the issue is whether or not the OP can get a date. 


In other words, you have guys staying on topic discussing it and women making off-topic completely unrelated "witty" remarks..


I find your ability to latch onto single sentences pretty impressive.

Stop generalizing. Not all men have stayed on topic, not all women have gone bat-****-crazy. I AM a woman and I agreed with your point for like the millionth time. I just disagreed with the delivery. That is all.


Hey, I was just paraphrasing what you said! Because that's what it essentially looks like... not saying it's true. Just found your examples amusing.


Oh. lol. ha! The internet makes for tough times distinguishing tone... apologies Image IPB

#125
Melheyon

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Meh,,, i found the class / gender thing fairly stereotypical... Morrigan - mage, Wynne, Mage , Leilana - rogue... the typical "female adventurer" classes. And then theres Sten, Warrior, Alistair, warrior, and the dwarf, warrior... all males.



Great game, but this disappointed me, give me a bloodthirsty Boudicca or amazon woman, and let some of the males be something other than sword swinging warriors...



Zevrans a rogue, but hes so feminine that he can be grouped with the women.